Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Kite22]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

because first arc is boring, theres no Beato and Note 2 has George on the cover...who would buy it?
btw, its funny how character cds etc. sales so well in comparison

That's some stupid logic, fans of the series will buy all the DVDs because who the hell only buys certain DVDs of a series they like? and who cares about who is on the cover? a cover shouldn't make someone decide that some DVD isn't worth checking out compared to another one.

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

but that means if you only compare and judge it as a adaptation you dont look with both eyes either...

Not really, it IS an adaptation of a previous existing material and should be looked at as such, not making comparisons between a source material and it's adaptation doesn't make sense.

[tcaz2]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

but that means if you only compare and judge it as a adaptation you dont look with both eyes either...

Some people do that, yes. I tend to try to look at it both ways.

However, you still have the POSSIBILITY of 'looking at it with two eyes', and thus your opinion will always be more informed than the person that is only looking at it with one, even if you yourself are biased one way or the other.

[~Ayane~]

Originally Posted by Kite22

That's some stupid logic, fans of the series will buy all the DVDs because who the hell only buys certain DVDs of a series they like? and who cares about who is on the cover? a cover shouldn't make someone decide that some DVD isn't worth checking out compared to another one.

serious business

[Skullchukka]

There are adaptations, good ones and bad ones.

And then there is DEEN.

I think it's very normal to hear cries of the VN population, as well as hearing cozy anime-only watchers points of views, who are just happy with the way things are.
I'm on the first group, and the reason why Deen is being criticized harshly is not only Umineko has an awesome story (which means; whatever Deen does, they will be doomed by the fans of the VN), but also the way Deen chose to adapt the series.

Some scenes just has a feeling of overwritten Higurashi, especially unnecessary L5 faces, just because they were good in Higurashi. There are lots of unnecessary fandom scenes, whereas same time could've been used to make the series more accurate.

Removing Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. However awesome character he might be, the series did not feel loose because he was missing; simply because he needed much time to be developed so the viewer would have an understanding of him.

But here, they had the time, they just mis-used it.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Wow from what I seen so far....I have to agree on that it's the worst of the bunch. Hell I'm very lenient about this sort of thing.

[Kite22]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

serious business

Your comment was still dumb, maybe if it was a 100+ episode series I could understand picking and choosing which DVDs to get but a series that is only 26 episodes? if you actually enjoyed the series then you would purchase all the DVDs regardless of who is on the cover or if they thought later arcs were more exciting.

[~Ayane~]

Not really, it IS an adaptation of a previous existing material and should be looked at as such, not making comparisons between a source material and it's adaptation doesn't make sense.

1. its adaptaion
2. its anime

sorry but both are equal truth you cant deny it, as was said not everyone has to look at source material

However, you still have the POSSIBILITY of 'looking at it with two eyes', and thus your opinion will always be more informed than the person that is only looking at it with one, even if you yourself are biased one way or the other

yeah i too know it lacks a mountain of things but still... i cant hate it and i always screams noooo when episode ends, lol... maybe because i first saw some of the anime and then started playing

Your comment was still dumb, maybe if it was a 100+ episode series I could understand picking and choosing which DVDs to get but a series that is only 26 episodes? if you actually enjoyed the series then you would purchase all the DVDs regardless of who is on the cover or if they thought later arcs were more exciting

no, i wouldnt buy first two dvds for 90$ each. at least not now. maybe from Note.03 since Beato and Bern appear in them. i see nothing silly in this
oh and btw i wasnt really serious when i wrote this in general but that part of sales being poor cause of george on cover was purely joke

[Taynis]

But I think no one said here that Deen have made a perfect anime. I'm a anime only-watcher and I do think that the lack of characterization is sad and such, but, people can still judging and having they way to see the things. No one here is the truth's owner.
If you don't like something, it's okay to say, but you will not have the right to say that the person who likes it is judging wrong or anything.

And about DVDs: It is easier and FREE to download from internet.
"But, but it will have no censor scenes!"
It will be in the internet.
Logically it isn't the only explanation for the bad sales, but is one of them. Even my favorite bands are suffering from it D=

But, oh well, it is just my opinion, I can't make the mind of someone more open...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Taynis

And about DVDs: It is easier and FREE to download from internet.
"But, but it will have no censor scenes!"
It will be in the internet.
Logically it isn't the only explanation for the bad sales, but is one of them. Even my favorite bands are suffering from it D=

Tell that to Shaft and Bakemonogatari. Even if the episodes are obviously on the internet somewhere the show still has one of the highest blu-ray dvd sales ever.

If people really like the anime so much they normally will buy a dvd of it. Similar to how people even now buy songs off of Itunes, even though they know well they can find it on the internet for free.

[Taynis]

Originally Posted by Marion

Tell that to Shaft and Bakemonogatari. Even if the episodes are obviously on the internet somewhere the show still has one of the highest blu-ray dvd sales ever.

If people really like the anime so much they normally will buy a dvd of it. Similar to how people even now buy songs off of Itunes, even though they know well they can find it on the internet for free.

But not everyone. And I said it is not the only explanation. I just making you guys to remember of that possibility.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Kite22

That's some stupid logic, fans of the series will buy all the DVDs because who the hell only buys certain DVDs of a series they like? and who cares about who is on the cover? a cover shouldn't make someone decide that some DVD isn't worth checking out compared to another one.

Not if you saw it on TV, maybe recorded it, and would otherwise pay a huge amount of cash to get a minimal amount of episodes in return.
Let's face it, not only Umineko's sales are going downhill, every series that doesn't have either a rocksolid fanbase with a considerable income or the bonus of some fetish-characters does bad recently.

Higurashi only sold comparably well because it also delivered some heavily fanboy oriented stuff...that should be also the reason why DEEN is including some horribly desperate half-naked artworks into their sets.
I have enough friends in Japan who love Higurashi and Umineko, yet they don't buy the DVDs because you just don't get enough for your money in comparison...but that counts for almost all Anime-DVDs.

Originally Posted by Kite22

Your comment was still dumb, maybe if it was a 100+ episode series I could understand picking and choosing which DVDs to get but a series that is only 26 episodes? if you actually enjoyed the series then you would purchase all the DVDs regardless of who is on the cover or if they thought later arcs were more exciting.

Not if it is (7000-8000円) 80~90$ for 2 episodes of a series that doesn't offer much more than it's story. What do you think why series with stupid plot but sexy girls manage to live on and on and on?

Originally Posted by Marion

Tell that to Shaft and Bakemonogatari. Even if the episodes are obviously on the internet somewhere the show still has one of the highest blu-ray dvd sales ever.

If people really like the anime so much they normally will buy a dvd of it. Similar to how people even now buy songs off of Itunes, even though they know well they can find it on the internet for free.

Comparing Bakemonogatari and Umineko is like comparing Ghost Whisperer to Twin Peaks.
Why do you think most of my friends buy Bakemonogatari?! Because the plot is so engaging? Because it's so arty?
No, they buy it because it features sexy 2D women who they adore...despite Nishio's good writing Bakemonogatari became famous as an anime because it delivered on a sexual basis. It's not the only reason, but it is a big one.

And comparing a 7000円 DVD to a 300円 Itunes song is a bit...well it isn't really comparable I think.

Originally Posted by Kite22

Not really, it IS an adaptation of a previous existing material and should be looked at as such, not making comparisons between a source material and it's adaptation doesn't make sense.

Comparison is one thing, but the criticism towards Umineko is mostyl not based on comparison it's based on a checklist of what 'had to be included' (regarding the individual persons likings) and gets a minus for every point that's not fullfilled.
That is the reason why many people think VN-readers want a 1:1 adaption.

Many other adaptions over time have become pretty famous despite being different or leaving things out that the original included.
West Side Story is pretty much just a re-location of Romeo and Juliet, yet many people regard it as the best musical ever.
The Shining for example was for my taste a horrible movie (because it changed the whole point of the original novel) yet many people like it and for many there isn't even a novel and it's not regarded mandatory.

Of course it would be better if people would always watch it from both sides, but people should have the freedom to decide. And sometimes, they don't even have that much of a choice...because honestly, does anybody of you read/watch/whatever every original or basis of everything you liked that was an adaption?

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

There are adaptations, good ones and bad ones.

And then there is DEEN.

I think it's very normal to hear cries of the VN population, as well as hearing cozy anime-only watchers points of views, who are just happy with the way things are.
I'm on the first group, and the reason why Deen is being criticized harshly is not only Umineko has an awesome story (which means; whatever Deen does, they will be doomed by the fans of the VN), but also the way Deen chose to adapt the series.

Some scenes just has a feeling of overwritten Higurashi, especially unnecessary L5 faces, just because they were good in Higurashi. There are lots of unnecessary fandom scenes, whereas same time could've been used to make the series more accurate.

Removing Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. However awesome character he might be, the series did not feel loose because he was missing; simply because he needed much time to be developed so the viewer would have an understanding of him.

But here, they had the time, they just mis-used it.

And that's one of those moments where I just stop being able to take things seriously. Honestly, DEEN is not much worse or better than most animation studios out there.
Name one studio that is without fault and I mean not based on personal liking, but purely based on objective facts.

Those unnecassry fandom scenes you mentioned (compared to Higurashi and many other adaptions) were kept to an astonishing minimum I think.
There were times where I agree they could have timed certain things better....but accusing the whole series of being a product of mis-used time is, at leat in my opinion, a rather unbased fact, because at least they seem to have time for it's ending, which many many studios aren't able to.

And your black and white categorization of hurt VN players and cozy anime-watchers just doesn't fit.
I'm a VN reader and so far, despite some flaws that many adaptions suffer Umineko did a great job for me and while it didn't surpass my expectations by much I still enjoyed it.
Comparing it to many VN, manga and game adaptions in the recent time they did a good job of capturing both atmosphere (at least for me) and important plot-points of the original.

As somebody already said, an adaption is always going to be a different experience and approaching it with the expectation of it being a substitute for an original with more space to spread is just ludicrous.

Of course the original VN is more complex, has a much more colourful repertoire of scenes, the characters are able to interact more...but that's natural.
Other adaptions never even got that far...they just silently died along the way.

[TsundereCake]

I'm so RAAAAAAGE-ing right now DDDDDD: "I'll put your name here" but no "I love you" DDDD:????????????????????????????

And no oppai sommelier

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Escargotage

Pros: gaapu-gaapu-gaapu-gaapu-gaapu-gaapu-gaapu, gaapu's face.

Cons: Everything else.

2/10

QQ

This.

Luckily, my expectations for the anime fell so low that it didn't really make it terrible to watch for me. I'm not trying to say that the anime is the worst thing ever, but after 18 or so episodes I kinda just stopped hoping and didn't really think of the VN as much when watching. Makes it a lot easier to stomach for me. ^^;
I wanted them to insert death(from_stupefaction) and Happy Maria somewhere but... well... it's Deen.

That still won't raise the score though, at most it'll get a 4 or a 5 from me.

[Kakkou]

Boy there sure is enough burning rage in here to hold a BBQ party.

I'd like to think of the anime adaptation as a slightly more grounded version of the VN story, as in there's less scenes that were meant to distract (e.g. ghost Kanon & ghost Jessi in EP2, goat-kun & furniture link combo in EP4, etc.). So in that respect I can forgive some of the cuts and alterations. In the end most of the rage comes from VN fans who want to see those flashy scenes. Goat scene getting cut overjoyed me, but I certainly did want to see the furniture link combo myself so I am rather disappointed at that loss. Music wise I'm normally indifferent to those because I don't expect to hear all the music used. I either accept their choices, like them or occasionally get sad like with the lack of Happy Maria here. The lack of red or none of it by Beato is certainly bad though.

Overall I think it was okay, but this is just a matter of my opinion.

[Christen]

I'd have to agree with most of the VN players wanting much of a 1:1 adaptation and giving a -1 to everything that wasn't included.

I'm already tired of reading the same pattern all over again that I stopped caring.

In any case, the thread is turning into another VN-Anime bickering thread. This isn't the place for that as stated in a past thread.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Comparing Bakemonogatari and Umineko is like comparing Ghost Whisperer to Twin Peaks.
Why do you think most of my friends buy Bakemonogatari?! Because the plot is so engaging? Because it's so arty?

No, they buy it because it features sexy 2D women who they adore...despite Nishio's good writing Bakemonogatari became famous as an anime because it delivered on a sexual basis. It's not the only reason, but it is a big one.

Yes sexy women is the reason why Bakemonogatari sells 10x the amount of dvds as fantasticly written titles like Queen's Blade and Ikkitousen. Hitagi in her panties for 7 minutes in episode 2 is the only reason Hitagi is popular. Nothing to do with the snappy and witty dialogue from a well written character.

Umineko on dvd flopped, second volume didn't even chart well enough to provide a figure for its first week. I doubt it gets a second season unless it's written into the contract when terms where agreeded upon for the first season. You can blame the economy all you want but Bakemonogatari from the same season as Umineko is challenging Gundam SEED Destiny's record for avg sales per volume since the dvd format came out.

The level of fanservice and "hot" girls in Umineko isn't exactly far from Bakemonogatari anyway.. and your above excuse is a joke.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Not if you saw it on TV, maybe recorded it, and would otherwise pay a huge amount of cash to get a minimal amount of episodes in return.
Let's face it, not only Umineko's sales are going downhill, every series that doesn't have either a rocksolid fanbase with a considerable income or the bonus of some fetish-characters does bad recently.


Not if it is (7000-8000円) 80~90$ for 2 episodes of a series that doesn't offer much more than it's story. What do you think why series with stupid plot but sexy girls manage to live on and on and on?



Comparing Bakemonogatari and Umineko is like comparing Ghost Whisperer to Twin Peaks.
Why do you think most of my friends buy Bakemonogatari?! Because the plot is so engaging? Because it's so arty?
No, they buy it because it features sexy 2D women who they adore...despite Ryukishi07's good writing When They Cry became famous as an anime because it delivered on a sexual basis. It's not the only reason, but it is a big one.

And comparing a 7000円 DVD to a 300円 Itunes song is a bit...well it isn't really comparable I think.


And that's one of those moments where I just stop being able to take things seriously. Honestly, DEEN is not much worse or better than most animation studios out there.
Name one studio that is without fault and I mean not based on personal liking, but purely based on objective facts.

Those unnecassry fandom scenes you mentioned (compared to Higurashi and many other adaptions) were kept to an astonishing minimum I think.
There were times where I agree they could have timed certain things better....but accusing the whole series of being a product of mis-used time is, at leat in my opinion, a rather unbased fact, because at least they seem to have time for it's ending, which many many studios aren't able to.


Of course the original VN is more complex, has a much more colourful repertoire of scenes, the characters are able to interact more...but that's natural.
Other adaptions never even got that far...they just silently died along the way.

See how easy that was to change? DEEN simply doesn't do a very good job with its adaptations.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Yes sexy women is the reason why Bakemonogatari sells 10x the amount of dvds as fantasticly written titles like Queen's Blade and Ikkitousen. Hitagi in her panties for 7 minutes in episode 2 is the only reason Hitagi is popular. Nothing to do with the snappy and witty dialogue from a well written character.

Umineko on dvd flopped, second volume didn't even chart well enough to provide a figure for its first week. I doubt it gets a second season unless it's written into the contract when terms where agreeded upon for the first season. You can blame the economy all you want but Bakemonogatari from the same season as Umineko is challenging Gundam SEED Destiny's record for avg sales per volume since the dvd format came out.

The level of fanservice and "hot" girls in Umineko isn't exactly far from Bakemonogatari anyway.. and your above excuse is a joke.

I didn't say it was the one and only reason. That's why I said that Nishio's intricate writing style is of course a reason why Bakemonogatari as an anime became popular, but it's also because it is mainly about 'dating and rescuing girls'.
If you break Bakemonogatari down to it's core functionality it's a galge with a strange story webbed around it.

It's not about explosive eroticism, sometimes pondering into pornography, like in the case of an Ikki Tousen, but it's more a subdued sexual undertone.
You get to know the girls during their individual arcs, you know their strong points, their weak points, how they look in different outfits....you get to be their protector through Araragi.
It's not about rubbing their parts into your face so much it gets hilarious, it's much more aiming for the subconscious level of boys and men.

I myself love Bakemonogatari for it's witty dialogue, but wasn't it for Nishio's writing it would be just another one of those many Tokimeki Memorial, Kanon etc. stories that float around somewhere in the endless space of 2D women.
Nishio had a great concept and he crammed it into a overused but very well selling exterior.

Umineko on the other hand would possible sell much less then Higurashi if it weren't for the popularity of Higurashi.

See how easy that was to change? DEEN simply doesn't do a very good job with its adaptations.

And where do you expect DEEN to take those sexy, adorable women in LEADING roles from in Umineko?
Pull them out of Natsuhi's enormous behind?!
No honestly...unless you totally rewrite the series giving Jessica, Shannon and the furniture much more screentime then the rest, where is this going to come from?!

[Kite22]

Originally Posted by Christen

I'd have to agree with most of the VN players wanting much of a 1:1 adaptation and giving a -1 to everything that wasn't included.

I'm already tired of reading the same pattern all over again that I stopped caring.

In any case, the thread is turning into another VN-Anime bickering thread. This isn't the place for that as stated in a past thread.

People need to stop with this 1:1 thing, we've given plenty of reasons why we feel these episodes are terrible and this adaptation is horrible even if it's more "accurate" (I use the term loosely) then Higurashi was. It may cover the plot points better but that means very little when the characterization is cut or changed, emotion is removed, scenes are changed or removed for little reason most of the time and few of the changes make sense or improve the scene. No one ever expected perfection, however we did expect something GOOD.

[Christen]

Spoiler for review:

The music during the fight was good, too bad it was short-lived. The prison escape scene was shortened, but then it would take up too much screen time. The usual complaint would be the episode lacks impact. The first half happened too quickly that anime-only viewers might be overwhelmed.

Pros:
- new music
- Engrish
- Beato's disappointment

Cons:
- impact
- emotion
- no Happy Maria (and no, it's not Maria's theme ironically)
- no 599 million ruins
- no red text about Battler's sin. That's very important.

That's a lot of cons, but overall, I didn't feel like this episode was THAT bad. I'd admit it was a bad adaptation of what transpired on the VN, but with all the extra things that happened, they wouldn't be able to fit in everything without messing up the next two episodes.