An observation: The evolution of community structure

[Starks]

Let us begin, another thought provoking topic for our bored minds. However, rather than starting with a long-winded speech to put forth a point (this may come in a subsequent post), I will ask a simple question.

What would you attribute as the #1 cause for the de-emphasis on "large" (in relative terms) groups in the community as opposed to small, one-hit wonders over the past few seasons?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Starks

What would you attribute as the #1 cause for the de-emphasis on "large" (in relative terms) groups in the community as opposed to small, one-hit wonders over the past few seasons?

Guess #1: Large groups (the few that are truly left) have become so efficient that they encapsulate the work to an extent where a group member deals only with his/her job. It became too hard to feel any sort of sense of personal accomplishment and therefore these people all left to make their own groups where they could have more control over the entirety of things.

[Starks]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Guess #1: Large groups (the few that are truly left) have become so efficient that they encapsulate the work to an extent where a group member deals only with his/her job. It became too hard to feel any sort of sense of personal accomplishment and therefore these people all left to make their own groups where they could have more control over the entirety of things.

I agree, however, I believe that large groups (now and then) operate on an ideology rather more so than an "efficiency". I also disagree that there are few old large groups left. There are plenty still alive, but they are mostly inactive these days.

I am also curious as to where these new groups are mostly "out-of-the-blue" or breakoff groups? There have been "fragmentation events" in the community's history, but I'm not talking about over years... I'm talking about over the course of a few seasons.

[chaos4ever]

speculative observation (yes, oxymoron/paradox ftw):

1> Established standards. The quality of work that most of the large and established groups do are undeniably good, eg. Conclave, Keep, Kraze, AonE, SS. Unfortunately, those who are interested in working on projects must meet a bar, which makes for difficult entrance for folks who are interested in fansubbing. Many of the smaller groups seem to have much more relaxed standards that make admission to them much easier, however the quality that come from them suffers since the standards are much lower, nor do they have guidelines in what good subs actually are. Also, there may be a familiarity factor among the staff that leaks out to the general community that could prove discouraging to the new folks who would want to join with them.

2> Structure and efficiency. Groups that are much more structured are able to run autonomously with veteran subbers, leading to a more closed admissions process. IIRC, back in the day, large groups could handle series:staff around 2:1 or 3:1 (for example, an editor, timer or typesetter could be solely working on two or three series), which would shut out a lot of people interested in joining up due to less active recruitment, and they'd join up with other smaller, less "efficient" groups who needed more staff. I don't know if this plays a role these days, since I don't keep tallies like these anymore.

3> Possible growth in the anime base. Purely speculative. But it seems there are a significantly larger number of people who are interested in anime in the last few years, and it has become slightly more mainstream. A fraction of the new fans will inevitably be interested in fansubbing as the result. With points 1> and 2>, new groups would most likely form to absorb the newcomers that were not absorbed by the established groups. Again, this is purely speculative, but I think it's undeniable there are more active fansubbers these days, evidenced by the number of groups that work on any one series. A majority of series that are subbed have at least two groups working on them, at least at the start, and most finish. A few years ago, mostly one, maybe two on rare occasions, would work in a given series from start to finish. (this sort of also leads into)

4> Series selection is easier with smaller groups. Mostly due to those who may all of a sudden want to a series at the drop (at the drop of a hat?), or if their group is not subbing it. The larger groups seem to plan for series way in advance with group discussion and things become more inflexible with consensus as the result. Smaller groups that are run by a "dictator" makes for easier personal accommodations as the demand for a series to sub by the staff becomes a demand for staff to sub a series. IMO, this primarily evidenced by folks who work for a multiple number of groups.

I doubt most of the groups are formed by breaking off from larger groups. The last ones, at least on my radar, iirc was the conclave/a-keep and the mahou/AnY splits. It seems a lot of the newer groups are startups with brand new subbers with a few vetrans hopping on. In a way, it's good., since it gets to sub many, many more series. Unfortunately, the subs that come out are unreliable in release rates (work ethic) and in quality. And unless the group has guidance by the vetrans, the quality and work ethic will not, and has generally not, been up to par with most of the established groups on a significant fraction of series.

Could this the the start of a sociology dissertation?

[naka]

reason for one-hit wonder...

1) answers to nobody, aka own pace, no rush, no deadline, no hurry, no critism from "within" on "quality"
2) consistent (to improving over time) standards due to done by the same person over time
3) much lower security risk
4) "want" to do every part of the process

[Access]

Originally Posted by Starks

What would you attribute as the #1 cause for the de-emphasis on "large" (in relative terms) groups in the community as opposed to small, one-hit wonders over the past few seasons?

Things happen in cycles. A younger group that is sucessful and expansive will grow by constantly bringing in new people. But over time, the more senior members will generally become less active in the role of subbing. So in a lot of cases, what happens is the group is full of senior members who still try to make decisions and delegate but don't do much work themselves (in essence, 'leaders'). The people doing most of the work want to decide things on their own, so they form their own new group. The old group is left with people who are senior and inactive, and others who are active, but prefer to work for the new group. The new group may be small, but it is more effective since the people who do the work are also the ones empowered to make the decisions.

This cycle is far superior to groups being large, static, and limited in number.

When there are a lot of new groups out there producing (ie. what you call 'one-hit wonders), it has a relative 'me too' effect. Eventually you have a 'down' part of the cycle where everyone is happy where they are and groups still feel 'new', 'fresh', don't have much in the way of seniority complexes and inactive members (they're too young). But then those groups start to age, grow, and the cycle repeats itself.

The most sucessful, long-standing large groups find ways to stay out of this cycle, but those types of groups are few and far between.

[Maceart]

I have a feeling that it's mostly based on the advent of Bittorrent as a distro technology. When distro isn't limited to FTP's or hacked IRC bots, anyone's simple DSL/cable connection has the potential to be their own releaser.

I don't really think there has been as many "one hit wonders" as one might think, sure new groups are popping up here and there, but their successes don't depend on one show. The old groups are still around too, just not as active.

Heck, I think it's a good thing. As long as more good anime are getting subbed, what's not to like?

[ladholyman]

The novelty got old, I guess.

[Starks]

Originally Posted by Maceart

I have a feeling that it's mostly based on the advent of Bittorrent as a distro technology. When distro isn't limited to FTP's or hacked IRC bots, anyone's simple DSL/cable connection has the potential to be their own releaser.

I don't really think there has been as many "one hit wonders" as one might think, sure new groups are popping up here and there, but their successes don't depend on one show. The old groups are still around too, just not as active.

Heck, I think it's a good thing. As long as more good anime are getting subbed, what's not to like?

BitTorrent certainly played its role, but it in the end didn't kill any of the behemoth groups.

I see far bigger issues relegating big groups to "once in a blue moon" releases nowadays. They're still alive mind you, but only as shells of their former glory. Look at Anime-Keep and AnimeForever, they used to effectively run the community before they shattered into numerous splinter groups.

The only bastion of tradition that really remains is Shinsen and its not like the rest of the community has lost its way. I really do wonder how much longer Shinsen can operate as it does. They're only large group that is still active and continues to churn out releases on a fairly regular basis. Many smaller groups find it scary how Vincent manages to run such a sturdy ship in this day and age.

[Cyprene]

As somebody who's been in every major group (even if only for a very short while in some cases), what I've noticed is that a group that size requires a figurehead, and that figurehead has to be enormously talented at management and leadership, as well as capable of filling in when somebody doesn't do their job and a project's stalled.
I think that it's the presence of these people that enables a group to get to that size, and that when they lose interest or get dragged away by IRL stuff the groups start to decay. If Runpsicat will forgive me for using her as an example, you can basically track the size and release schedule of A-Kraze with how much she felt like spending time on it. We at Shinsen are fortunate to have Vincent, who, for all his flaws, is an amazingly capable leader. Even if we all do want to bang his head in with a rock at times.

Anyway, I think that the community in the past few years has had several such people, who I won't name to avoid embarrassing them but anybody who's been in groups like AForever during its prime knows who I'm talking about, and because of that you saw a large number of big groups. I think we're probably seeing the emergence of others now, #yesy for instance was really getting big before Misora had to take time off due to personal reasons. It took Shinsen a solid nine months to go from "moderate-sized group known for its crappy translations and QC" to "largest group on the network." In eight months, when #yoroshiku and #static subs are both doing five or six projects apiece, this conversation may look pretty silly.

-
Cyprene, #shinsen-subs translator

[chaos4ever]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

As somebody who's been in every major group (even if only for a very short while in some cases), what I've noticed is that a group that size requires a figurehead, and that figurehead has to be enormously talented at management and leadership, as well as capable of filling in when somebody doesn't do their job and a project's stalled.

this "filling in" is rather vaguely defined, but staff working on a project varies from group to group as to whether this is flexible or not. some groups will have assigned staff to only work on a series while the person working on a series is more flexible. some groups care about getting an episode out by next week come hell or high water, while others prefer to have a more consistent product with low variation with the same staff working on a project.

I think that it's the presence of these people that enables a group to get to that size, and that when they lose interest or get dragged away by IRL stuff the groups start to decay. If Runpsicat will forgive me for using her as an example, you can basically track the size and release schedule of A-Kraze with how much she felt like spending time on it. We at Shinsen are fortunate to have Vincent, who, for all his flaws, is an amazingly capable leader. Even if we all do want to bang his head in with a rock at times.

The other half can be that some groups see 90% of the shows as crap and whatever other series look interesting, a full team doesn't form because of highly variable preferences within the group on the anime they prefer to work on. Other groups may have the tendency of subbing anime that looks remotely interesting.

A release rate does not necessarily indicate the level of interest in a group wanting to work, either. Monster, a 70+ ep series, wasn't finished until at least a good few months after the last episode aired. There were highly variable release rates among all of the groups working on the show, but it didn't necessarily mean the interest in the show was waning. For other shows, the group could be the only folks working on it, so they have a more relaxed schedule; or they prefer to not bother chasing after speedsubbers and release at a much slower pace and at the quality they prefer.

Anyway, I think that the community in the past few years has had several such people, who I won't name to avoid embarrassing them but anybody who's been in groups like AForever during its prime knows who I'm talking about, and because of that you saw a large number of big groups. I think we're probably seeing the emergence of others now, #yesy for instance was really getting big before Misora had to take time off due to personal reasons. It took Shinsen a solid nine months to go from "moderate-sized group known for its crappy translations and QC" to "largest group on the network." In eight months, when #yoroshiku and #static subs are both doing five or six projects apiece, this conversation may look pretty silly.

yesy, yoroshiku have yet to approach anywhere near the juggernaut status that the legacy groups had years back. SS comes close, if it's not there yet. Shinsen is in its own special class.

[runpsicat]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

If Runpsicat will forgive me for using her as an example, you can basically track the size and release schedule of A-Kraze with how much she felt like spending time on it.

Uh, well... thank you for giving me that much credit. I only wish that were the case ("Crap, production quality/speed's down by 10%! Time for me to balance that with an hour of work!"), but the equation is not that simple. It seems to me that people define thriving differently as well (size, output, output speed, quality, etc.).

To get (slightly) back on topic, I personally think larger groups tend to suffer the following:
1. personality clashes
2. project greed (the want new projects every season regardless of overall project load syndrome)
3. slower decisionmaking

Unless the group setup is authoritarian enough (or have near-infinite human resources) to override the natural outcomes associated with the "too many people under one roof" phenomenon, the above will occur with increasing frequency once the group expands. Then, staff may leave due to associated wear and tear (project burnout, conflict burnout, frustration).

Not that I know the perfect answer or anything, but my personal advice to all the "young'uns" out there would be... stay reasonable about what you and your group are capable of, and keep in mind that it's not all about what you want.

Edit - Well, now that I think about, that might be one reason why smaller project-based groups are increasing. I can see how it'd be less stressful to operate on a short-term basis without juggling ongoing projects and interpersonal dynamics.

[Cyprene]

this "filling in" is rather vaguely defined, but staff working on a project varies from group to group as to whether this is flexible or not. some groups will have assigned staff to only work on a series while the person working on a series is more flexible. some groups care about getting an episode out by next week come hell or high water, while others prefer to have a more consistent product with low variation with the same staff working on a project.

But "Our typesetter is gone for finals week, and the episode is just sitting there!" is a pretty common situation that over time builds frustration and makes for angry people and group disharmony. Having somebody, almost always the leader, who functions as a "fill-in" is absolutely essential if a group wants to release consistently, and get to the kind of size that we're talking about here.

yesy, yoroshiku have yet to approach anywhere near the juggernaut status that the legacy groups had years back. SS comes close, if it's not there yet. Shinsen is in its own special class.

Yesy is dead. Misora's moved on, nobody else in the group has any leadership capability or even any desire to lead, and it mostly exists as a means to distribute stuff it's already done, as well as occassionally distribute a picture pack of japanese girls in various states of undress. Yoroshiku, however, I would keep an eye on.

[Devastator]

In my short history of fansubbing, it was often, if not always, a personality conflict with the leader. I'm not sure how many people are aware, but there have been at least 3 splits (that I'm aware of) from one of the groups that I once worked with in the past year.

I had a number of reasons for leaving the group, however. Some included conflicts with the leader's choices, the views on containers and formats, personality conflicts with certain other members amongst the group, etc.

I've recently split off from the group that I helped establish back in April of 2006 due to the lack of foreseeable productivity amongst the group.

But "Our typesetter is gone for finals week, and the episode is just sitting there!" is a pretty common situation that over time builds frustration and makes for angry people and group disharmony. Having somebody, almost always the leader, who functions as a "fill-in" is absolutely essential if a group wants to release consistently, and get to the kind of size that we're talking about here.

In regards to the last group I worked with, I was essentially the fill-in that did most of the work that other members couldn't get around to, or simply because none of the other members were willing to do the part (ie. karaoke-timing, karaoke). Every day that I couldn't get around to IRC was spent like a holiday for the rest of the members.

What I found was that the only way that the group ever got by was for me to play the tyrant. The fact that I was not the only one who established the group (yet was the only one that seemed to show any interest in keeping the group alive and moving) is what caused me to leave.

[CelesAurivern]

Originally Posted by Starks

What would you attribute as the #1 cause for the de-emphasis on "large" (in relative terms) groups in the community as opposed to small, one-hit wonders over the past few seasons?

It's not so much an evolution, but rather a shift in the trends.
A couple of years back, it was the "in" thing to join a big, if not established, group.
Now, since the decline of the major groups of yesteryear, that is no longer the case.
The "in" thing in current times is to start up your own group. (As examplified by "your-mom" fansubs; anyone and everyone can have a group, even your mom.)

A major reason why a huge number of new groups fail to make it past one season, or even fail to take off, is the lack of competent, able leadership.
Let me just quote a classic example of unconvincing leadership.

Example Alpha

Originally Posted by koenosaki

Yow I want to get an initiative to set up a new group, name undecided.

Projects: can be discussed, but I wanna do a fast subbing of katekyo hitman reborn! why? shinsen is to slow on it

Positions: everything...

I hope someone or people with good skills, are interested in helping me out

contact: blue_armian@hotmail.com

A real classic we have here. No skills. Basically trying to throw together a group to satisfy his own needs.

The other obvious reason why a group fails is because of the absence of a (dedicated/competent) translator.
It's amazing how many people believe they can start without one

[Devastator]

Originally Posted by CelesAurivern

The other obvious reason why a group fails is because of the absence of a (dedicated/competent) translator.
It's amazing how many people believe they can start without one

Whether a group can survive without a translator is, in my opinion, based more on how the group handles that fact. Many of the posters in the recruitment thread should look not to start their own group, but rather to build up their experience amongst another group, or, if the individual has the skills they feel are essential enough, try to negotiate a joint.

Naturally, any group that can provide translation is often seen as a godsend, but if the group can provide everything else, there is a higher likelihood of survival than a group asking for several positions (especially if they include karaoke and timing).

It truly disgusts me to see the vast number of posts in the recruitment thread asking for essential positions from groups not even established yet stating they are. Such a group that I would consider to be "established" has the potential to release, if not, has released with another group(s) with the requirement of having needed at most one of the most sought after positions (translation, timing, karaoke).

I would consider my first joint to be a special case. I told my friend (back around mid-2006) that I would help him if he chose to go through with the project. However, he and I having little to no translation experience needed to look for help in that area and he, having joined another group (AnimeOmake), wound up needing to carry their group name.

[Access]

I think people who aren't involved in subbing themselves getting too tied up over group names. Especially the name for a larger group, which in reality is just an umbrella organization of smaller workgroups releasing under the same name. Stuff can happen at the 'group-as-a-whole' level, but in general these things are inconsequential, non-events. If they're not inconsequential, it's often a problem and people can leave over it. A decision made by a vote may please 75% and displease 25%, but make a few of those decisions as a group and you've displeased half the group. If you have to make a decision, the worst way to make it is by arbitrary mandate (ie. the leader says it is so without any explanation) and the best way to make it is by explaining why a decision is required, what choices can be made, the good and the bad of each choice, and trying to arrive at a relative consensus, taking a vote only as a last resort.

If you look at the individual workgroups, they are comprised of people who are working on something b'cos they want to. People cannot arbitrarily be told 'go work on this stalled project' or 'go help these guys'. If they had wanted to, they would have done it already without having to be asked. They won't work on a show they dislike or that's outside there preferred genre. The 'theme' groups (ie. ones that only sub loli stuff) have some advantage in this respect, but it still comes down to personal taste. There are subgenres within genres, try to force a moonphase fan to work on ichigo marshmallow and the only response might be 'not goth enough'.

Also some of these workgroups have territorial people who have the attitude 'better that I do it late than someone else do it on time'. Either way, a workgroup can be an indepedent unit and function as such if the need arises. Removing themselves from the group-as-a-whole, if the members agree to it, can be done very easily and it happens all the time.

In smaller groups, a single workgroup might entail everyone in the group, plus one or two support staff like channel admins, BT seeders, etc. The importance of BT was that it levelled the distro 'playing field', a large group has no real advantage over a smaller one in terms of ease of distribution.

[[darkfire]]

Well the largest group that I know of is STAR. A Chinese fan subbing group. They are just alot of little groups that all release under the same name. They are very efficient. As they account for around 70% of the Chinese subs you see out there.

(The also have the best ftp if your looking for those hard to find raws ^_^)

[TheFluff]

Small (4-5 people) groups of dedicated, experienced, multi-talented people are much, much easier to coordinate and work with. This is pretty much the only reason Eclipse can keep doing what we're doing week after week for months at an end and never miss a release time. We know we can trust everyone, and even if the shit hits the fan and someone's internet dies or just disappears, someone else can be trusted to fill in. We could never do what we're doing with a traditional project approach where if someone doesn't show up to do their part in time, nothing happens until he/she shows up again.

[fizz]

Originally Posted by Access

Especially the name for a larger group, which in reality is just an umbrella organization of smaller workgroups releasing under the same name. Stuff can happen at the 'group-as-a-whole' level, but in general these things are inconsequential, non-events.

I did some work for two fairly large groups back in the day (2003, '04) and I never had a feeling our projects were like little isolated groups. We had staff and/or distro channels where we'd all hang out together, chat with each other, make friends and foes. It was fairly hard to know everyone and chat with anyone that was under your nose, but that was a given with a group that had ~60 members. Still, I don't think our project rooms were like little fansubbing satellites. We had a common distro, members worked for different projects, everything was intertwined. So, we were infact A group. In some cases a single person can be just as much of a satellite as projects themselves. Usually group splits happened due to a single clashing charismatic personality.
The idea of project channels is in my opinion the only way a group can function when they have 10+ projects on their plate. For some it's already hard to keep things organised with 5 projects using just one staff/project room.