Macross - Music discussion (Part 2)

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Tak

But Diamond Crevasse? Sorry, thats something else. Being hard-associated with Sheryl Nome also renders it rather unimaginable for anyone else to attempt the feat.

^
This so much, like 100x so much. I love hearing covers, but Diamond Crevasse (and that don't be late song) is so much entrenched in Sheryl territory that pretty much everyone but May'n would sound so weird doing it.

It's like how Ikenai Borderline would've suffered the same fate if they didn't have Freyja sing it so early. I mean, for most people it's already a Mikumo song, but Freyja singing along at the end of episode 1 means that it's not strictly associated with Mikumo, especially how there would've been like a 3 month delay between the pilot and the next episode.

I like how Junna tries to put her own spin to the song, but I don't think there's a currently active anison singer who can pull it off. But to be fair in criticism to Junna, if there was any Sheryl song she had a chance of pulling off, it would have been Diamond Crevasse (just imagining her singing Northern Cross is just lol).



Actually, upon re-listening to her Diamond Crevasse for like the 5th time while writing this response... I actually like that track THE BEST out of the album. Certainly better than her Bokura no Senjou, but maybe I'm underselling her there since I think Freyja sang it solo better (or maybe because Freyja is the only one who sang it solo in the anime? see where I'm going at here? XD). In any case, it's true that Junna's Diamond Crevasse is not flawless, as there's some parts where it feels like she's oversinging (~1:30-2:00, ~3:40, ~4:30-4:45, all parts originally sung in lower registers but here it sounds like she's trying to show off that she can hit high notes) but I couldn't believe I liked it better with each run through in the background.

Maybe that was the problem? When I was actively singing the song, my head is thinking, "Man that's not Sheryl." But when passively listening it while doing something else so my brain doesn't actively pick out the differences? It actually sounds really nice for the most part, especially after 4:00 barring the stuff she tried to oversing. I never thought I'd say that about a Diamond Crevasse cover... O_O

[SleepingTerror]

Diamond Crevasse was one of the few songs I actually really liked in Macross Frontier sung by May'n. Junna's version does has some peaks but May'n's rich voice just suits it better. I think that was something extremely lacking in Delta, the singers would good, but none had "rich" voices.


But holy crap Freyja's Seikan Hikou is so cute. There's more "flaws" to the notes but it's adorable.

[endlessabyss]

For the most part, the Delta's singers are fine, but I think more singing experience/training is needed. (Certain parts of) some Walkure songs sound raw/rough/unrefined to me.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by endlessabyss

For the most part, the Delta's singers are fine, but I thinking more singing experience/training is needed. Some Walkure songs sound raw to me.

I don't know if it's necessarily their lack of experience individually or as a group.

Absolute 5 is their best, in my personal opinion; because of all the group songs in their library, this one is iconic because it's not an opening or ending but could be! The vocals could be considered overwhelming at points, but this could be attributed to how Absolute 5, as an insert song, is placed in the series; it's during episodes like where Freyja is conflicted or Makina is down and Mikumo is a prisoner, and their vocals in this song express their fight.

Also, I'll add Forbidden Borderline on here (even if it's firstly a duet for Mikumo and Freyja).

Mikumo and Freyja, JUNNA and Minori, on their voices alone, in a duet, could contend with Frontier's Sheryl and Ranka, May'n and Nakajima. They basically have similar vocals while singing together. If they could do duets, I'd love it, especially if they do covers of songs like Lion.

Thing is, a majority of the less favorable tracks come from the solos of the minor characters in Walkure, in my opinion. Makina and Reina, aside from their likeable personalities and similar voices (seriously), have the less favorable songs in all of Walkure. Jiritic Beginner is only catchy because it's the first song you're really introduced to in episode 1 (so if you're like me, you'll remember Hayate dancing in a work droid to this song~).

And, regardless if I like Kaname or her two songs or not, she really does only have two official songs (discounting her ballad of Giraffe Blues) for herself. That's... not a lot of time to consider if she's a good singer or not professionally. The problem is, I don't know if Kawamori believed in her character or singer enough for adding new songs for her, and it's kind of sad...

Macross, as a franchise, is well-known for helping young singers become noticed through its anime. Everyone who is praising May'n, only remember you'd never know of her or like her songs or even hear her singing if not for her debut in Frontier.

[Matts]

Endlessabyss: that's because 3 of the five members are VA's and two of them also have to sing in character. Makina in particular sound so bad. And as for Mino and Junna, Minori still kinda has to do the cutesy voice thing and Junna is very young and still needs more training. Pretty sure they can make it, the others are gonna go back to voice acting.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Everyone who is praising May'n, only remember you'd never know of her or like her songs or even hear her singing if not for her debut in Frontier.

The thing is: we know of her, now. And we are comparing her to other singers, of the Macross franchise, now. So, chill with your tone, because it's not helping. I don't think I, personally, ever said I disliked the songs of Delta. Actually, I'm one of the people who definitely and unabashedly enjoyed the show. And its music (even if I didn't fall in head over heels love with any of it, other than Ikenai Borderline).

So, back off on the snark, please. I do not care for the least bit of it.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

The thing is: we know of her, now. And we are comparing her to other singers, of the Macross franchise, now. So, chill with your tone, because it's not helping. I don't think I, personally, ever said I disliked the songs of Delta. Actually, I'm one of the people who definitely and unabashedly enjoyed the show. And its music (even if I didn't fall in head over heels love with any of it, other than Ikenai Borderline).

So, back off on the snark, please. I do not care for the least bit of it.

You know, I never did call names, so if it does not apply to you, or you don't feel it does, you don't have to read/accept it like it does, so maybe you should back off on the snark here.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

You know, I never did call names, so if it does not apply to you, or you don't feel it does, you don't have to read/accept it like it does, so maybe you should back off on the snark here.

Maybe you don't know how forums are supposed to work, HirouKeimou, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, there. But you were replying to a message from me, and implying people cannot read. So, how am I supposed to feel about your snarkiness, then? Should I just assume you were referring to some unseen person and move on?

No, girl, that's not how conversations go. Like I said, mind your tone.

[Tak]

Kind of pointless to argue what we know of May'n before her debut on Frontier. Don't you have to start somewhere to be noted? Don't we all?

Well, she starred as Sheryl, and now she is awesome-incarnate.

And I am proud of having her sweat rain all over me, twice!

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Maybe you don't know how forums are supposed to work, HirouKeimou, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, there. But you were replying to a message from me, and implying people cannot read. So, how am I supposed to feel about your snarkiness, then? Should I just assume you were referring to some unseen person and move on?

No, girl, that's not how conversations go. Like I said, mind your tone.

And, you quoted text which was not even directed at anyone in particular, no names or nothing; so I stand behind what I said originally. I did not point to you in general, in fact, it's directed at anyone who holds May'n/Sheryl on a pedestal; so it's not you specifically.

And yes, the comment about not being able to read is directed at you because I was extremely specific on background vocals and nowhere did you address the difference; you rambled on about a whole other topic.

Originally Posted by Tak

Kind of pointless to argue what we know of May'n before her debut on Frontier. Don't you have to start somewhere to be noted? Don't we all?

Well, she starred as Sheryl, and now she is awesome-incarnate.

And I am proud of having her sweat rain all over me, twice!

- Tak

...That's kind of the point of my initial argument for the May'n gospel here because prior to Frontier she had nothing to show she could, whereas JUNNA did. However, other girls like Nakajima and Minori had no prior experience. This is important here: She could be great or she could fall flat. And I don't know if you've listened to newer May'n stuff but she's beginning to fall flat... and I don't know if it's because she did better during her Frontier days because of her investment in Sheryl or if it's because she really had no prior experience/training to help her along in what she should do for songs. I can't think of any song on her newest album that I like at all, which is a deep shame.

Now, artists like Aimer show how their albums could have good and bad like American bands and still manage to pump out a couple of great songs on said album to make it worth it. May'n is struggling heavily in this regard especially since her second official album. And it says a lot when her first official album featured rehash songs (3 in total) of Frontier while Nakajima only had one song from Frontier, a solo of Lion. May'n has the voice, what she lacks is the lyrics, the inspiration, and above all, experience to handle other kinds of vocals (her performance of Northern Cross is good but during the chorus, you can hear her voice straining for those high vocals ever so slightly).

She's not an amazing singer, in fact, she's mediocre by comparison to other Japanese singers in her era. To place her on a pedestal... you're focusing a little too much on her when she performed songs for Sheryl and perhaps not enough with her as a singer now. She might be publishing new albums but the content has gradually been lessening and it's been a good long while since Frontier, there's been enough time for her to mold herself into a new persona for the singing world...

[Tak]

Calling May'n awesome does not place her on a pedestal. She is not even my favorite singer. I simply find her vocals to be more powerful than her contemporaries, even if she is severely lacking on the creativity front. Nonetheless, I certainly find her more unique than the other, market-oriented elites like Hamasaki and Utada. Thus if you think she is mediocre, which seems to be an opinion based on albums sold, I am afraid I will just have to disagree.

As far as Jmusic goes, I hail from an era of X Japan, Bz and Sakai before she had a drug problem. Yes, I am a bit old school.

- Tak

[Dextro]

I'll argue that, while May'n may have had a slump during a couple of years, is still in her A-Game and as proof I'd like to present the Shuumatsu no Izetta ED song:

[*snip*]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/rt3KE73BmQo

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[HirouKeimou]

I don't mind old school.

I mean, I didn't grow up with the original Macross; however, I like the original Do You Remember Love?. That said, I like My Boyfriend is a Pilot covered by Nakajima more than Mari Ijima. Maybe it's because the original sounds older (even on CD) than any other song in the series because of its instrumental areas...

I never did like Macross 7 for its music. In fact, I disliked it because one single song could be repeated endlessly for like 5 episodes in a row without any variety. And while ippus brings it up for Delta, I'll argue 7 is worse on this because it's OP and ED literally are in the show five times over the course of 49 episodes! And regardless if there's new versions of a song or not, it's typically a repeat with only a minor change in tune for like a minute...

However, Plus is my favorite; it introduced newer songs which flowed with a newer generation for its era. The 90s were big on pop/trance songs, and it's nice how Plus did it. My personal favorite is Information High.

Let's not discuss Zero, though, because aside from background music, Zero did not really have any big vocal pieces.

Frontier had dozens; half good, half bad. I say it like this because although everyone likes Sheryl on here, I really dislike her original intro songs like Don't Be Late and her version of What 'bout my Star?, and maybe it's because it has a Sharon 2.0 vibe in those songs. Hell, add Universal Bunny for the comparison but I do like that one, oddly. In fact, Forbidden Elixir is one I did not like during watching the movie, eventually I learned to like it a little. Regardless, it's not only May'n here; because Love Is a Dogfight is not really good, nor is a number of the little songs Nakajima receives for movie 1 (commercial songs); and their original Get On It - Flying Rock (English version) is better than the movie 2 one (Japanese version).

Ironically, looking back on the prior Macross', this franchise has always followed the times in areas like music. In the 80s, all songs were slow and jazz-like; the 90s, rock and pop/trance; the late 2000s for Frontier, genre mix of pop/rock; and Delta is for those in 2010s, an era filled by girl bands because of series like Love Live and is focused on continuing the genre mix of pop/rock which worked for Frontier. Now, music has moved along too little, sadly, and Delta continuing Frontier's line is... the genre mix is very brave considering how it'd be a little more accurate to incorporate dubstep songs (which is a very prominent genre of the 2010s) rather than continuing on the path Frontier paved prior.

It's a question of what the next Macross will do and if the genre mix Frontier did and continued in Delta will continue in a new series and if it'll sell as well as Frontier did and Delta is also doing now.

[Tak]

Dude...

WHA?

- Tak

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't mind old school.

I mean, I didn't grow up with the original Macross; however, I like the original Do You Remember Love?. That said, I like My Boyfriend is a Pilot covered by Nakajima more than Mari Ijima. Maybe it's because the original sounds older (even on CD) than any other song in the series because of its instrumental areas...

I never did like Macross 7 for its music. In fact, I disliked it because one single song could be repeated endlessly for like 5 episodes in a row without any variety. And while ippus brings it up for Delta, I'll argue 7 is worse on this because it's OP and ED literally are in the show five times over the course of 49 episodes! And regardless if there's new versions of a song or not, it's typically a repeat with only a minor change in tune for like a minute...

However, Plus is my favorite; it introduced newer songs which flowed with a newer generation for its era. The 90s were big on pop/trance songs, and it's nice how Plus did it. My personal favorite is Information High.

Let's not discuss Zero, though, because aside from background music, Zero did not really have any big vocal pieces.

Frontier had dozens; half good, half bad. I say it like this because although everyone likes Sheryl on here, I really dislike her original intro songs like Don't Be Late and her version of What 'bout my Star?, and maybe it's because it has a Sharon 2.0 vibe in those songs. Hell, add Universal Bunny for the comparison but I do like that one, oddly. In fact, Forbidden Elixir is one I did not like during watching the movie, eventually I learned to like it a little. Regardless, it's not only May'n here; because Love Is a Dogfight is not really good, nor is a number of the little songs Nakajima receives for movie 1 (commercial songs); and their original Get On It - Flying Rock (English version) is better than the movie 2 one (Japanese version).

Ironically, looking back on the prior Macross', this franchise has always followed the times in areas like music. In the 80s, all songs were slow and jazz-like; the 90s, rock and pop/trance; the late 2000s for Frontier, genre mix of pop/rock; and Delta is for those in 2010s, an era filled by girl bands because of series like Love Live and is focused on continuing the genre mix of pop/rock which worked for Frontier. Now, music has moved along too little, sadly, and Delta continuing Frontier's line is... the genre mix is very brave considering how it'd be a little more accurate to incorporate dubstep songs (which is a very prominent genre of the 2010s) rather than continuing on the path Frontier paved prior.

It's a question of what the next Macross will do and if the genre mix Frontier did and continued in Delta will continue in a new series and if it'll sell as well as Frontier did and Delta is also doing now.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Dude...

WHA?

- Tak

Here's a clue: I'm a child of the 90s.

A number of my favorite songs for anime in general are from the 90s. And if you recall all the commercially successful worldwide anime like Sailor Moon, you know I'm a big fan of the OP and ED songs of series like Rurouni Kenshin so I know what it's like to be old school in general.

Regardless, I'm open-minded and willing to accept new styles/music. Delta does little wrong for its music that is different from Frontier; it's following along with how Macross has been doing for years and that's kind of important to remember. Newer series in a franchise are aimed at newcomers or a newer generation so hearing the older generation bellyaching about it kind of is a moot issue because obviously you're the minority by sales alone...

[endlessabyss]

Note: I'm not a music expert, so I'm basing on how I feel.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know if it's necessarily their lack of experience individually or as a group.

I think it is a bit of both. Don't get me wrong, there are songs that are very fluid, but it seems to me there are some songs or certain parts of songs that are of the opposite. Also the song compositions and the producers might have to do with it. The singers are trying to sing in a certain way that feels off/unnatural to me and they don't have the singing experience to pull it off.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

...

[Edit] It seems May'n had some singing experiences/training prior to Macross (Sources: 1, 2).

Although having evidences prior to a show is nice to get a sence of a singer's capability, experiences, etc., I as a consumer wouldn't make a fuss if there aren't any beforehand. What's important is the now (in this case, a snapshot of when a show is airing). One can probably tell who has (some) experiences singing and others have no experiences. Take the last two Macross series. May'n has more singing experiences/training (than Megumi) under her belt when F aired. (A couple of questions from the listed above sources that were made after the show ended seem to confirmed my suspicion.) Likewise Junna and Minori than the other three singers when D aired.

May'n was at her peak when the show aired, especially when Yoko Kanno is involved. Also I think it is a bit of an unfair comparison of May'n vocals: from the CD to only one of her many performances. What about her performances where she is at her 100%? If she is off, think of the possible scenarios/contexts. Probably she has performed many songs and is out breath. (If I remember correctly a video of one of them was posted in this thread, in which you can see she is out breath.) As for her post-Macross works, in which I haven't checkout out most of them - by the way Chase the World - Accel World OP is friggin' awesome!-, but based on the sentiments here, she needs to have the right songs to showcase her vocals/full potential.

-

On the other note, no need to be so argumentative all the time (i.e. pitting something against the another). Why force someone to do/like something, agree with your view, or say your view is the right one? Everyone has his/her personal tastes (personally I see no problem liking nostalgia), i.e characters they like, music, etc. There are some things we can learn from one another without being too judgmental; maybe realize something that you haven't realized before. Maybe be more understanding by seeing from other point of views (although you don't necessarily have to agree). Otherwise let's agree to disagree, shall we?

[CrowKenobi]

Perhaps it's time to move the discussion to a more generic music thread since we've stopped discussing music from Macross.

[endlessabyss]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Perhaps it's time to move the discussion to a more generic music thread since we've stopped discussing music from Macross.

Uh... We actually are discussing Macross music? At least the majority of it.

[Dextro]

So I actually went back to give a second chance to most of Walküre Trap! and, while I still don't find the album particularly amazing, I was surprised to have completely missed that track #3 (Onya no Ko☆girl) was composed and arranged by TeddyLoid... I mean, now that I know that fact it makes complete sense why the song felt so different from almost everything else.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by endlessabyss

Uh... We actually are discussing Macross music? At least the majority of it.

Fair enough, but the uneeded bickering over individual artists needs to stop.