Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid Manga Discussion

[Sansker]

About Miura’s attack is what we call physic. Change the direction of such a strong move is not easy and will give you plenty of time to avoid. She could do it, I give you that, but for the same reasons you assume she can I assume she can’t: guessing. Really we don’t have any proof one way or the other so both are possible.

Well, pointless characters and pointless scenes aren’t what I mean. You assume I go for extremes and that is not the case. Just because something is really trying to develop a character means that is doing it well or that the character is relevant or that I even care about it.

And no, here I will have to disagree with you. Chapter 33 close with her charging something call “Sonic Shooter Phantom Shift” and page 6 of chapter 34 she uses “Sonic Shoot”. I am not an expert but those seem different.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I still say that can be avoided moving to the side. I mean is what I will do, Miura can’t change de direction of her kick and just step a couple of centimeter to the left or the right and there it goes super-killing move.

Just a couple of centimeter won't change much. There's still the air pressure around the attack, remember? Beside, Sword Draw is based on Iaido. It would have also taken into account the vulnerability between the re-sheathing and unsheathing of the sword.

But there is something that I always consider weird. By the end of episode 33 Vivio was ready to use a super attack but when we return to the fight on chapter 34 (After two rather pointless scenes with “Victor” and Chantez) she never use it. So what was with that? The author decided on that moment that Miura will win so he stops Vivio? Strange. Also by the end Vivio did had a chance to win by hitting Miura with her electric fist but she does hit her and the attack does nothing… talking about convenience.

Nope. Vivio shot Miura as soon as the scene return to the fight.

As for the scens with Victoria and Chantez, it's not pointless at all. It gives us another view on the characters.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

About Miura’s attack is what we call physic. Change the direction of such a strong move is not easy and will give you plenty of time to avoid. She could do it, I give you that, but for the same reasons you assume she can I assume she can’t: guessing. Really we don’t have any proof one way or the other so both are possible.

Given that every character chose to block the hit rather than dodge it, even if in Miciah's case defense was their biggest weakness, shows that dodging it is not as easy as you claim.

Magic gives super speed, remember? The main strength of iaido is speed. Put those two together. Sword Draw is a super-speed attack move.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Well, pointless characters and pointless scenes aren’t what I mean. You assume I go for extremes and that is not the case. Just because something is really trying to develop a character means that is doing it well or that the character is relevant or that I even care about it.

Whether you care about a character or not does not make any character development for that character pointless. This is once more you imposing your opinions as fact.

Originally Posted by Sansker

And no, here I will have to disagree with you. Chapter 33 close with her charging something call “Sonic Shooter Phantom Shift” and page 6 of chapter 34 she uses “Sonic Shoot”. I am not an expert but those seem different.

Yes, the basic attack is called a Sonic Shooter. Many Sonic Shooters together forms a Sonic Shooter: Phantom Shift. What does Nanoha tend to say whenever she fires one of her attacks? That's right, "Shoot." So what does her daughter say whenever she shoots one of her attacks? Exactly, "Shoot."

"Sonic Shooter: Phantom Shift" is the attack name, "Sonic Shoot" is the firing trigger.

[Sansker]

But there is no sword. I can’t say my technique is base on the style that needs a sword and I am kicking. Is really odd actually, kind of stupid to me in some sense. But still I rest my case on the move, is possible, can happen and it will help. Can it be counter? Maybe, we might never know on this particular case. Beside the air pressure around the attack won’t be enough to cause any real damage. We see character avoid such attack all the time and not being send away by wind.

Pointless to me since those are two characters we never hear about before and so far have seen little after that. Not that I miss them. Specially Chantez. On a story sense pointless because take us away from the fight to scene has nothing to do with it, is not moving any plot and doesn’t affect any event after such scene. That is what I call pointless.

Going back to the chapters I check them again and I do see a small panel where an explosion is before Vivio uses Sonic Shoot. If that is the shift thing she was charging last episode that was a really good way of setting up something as big and end up in a small panel. I just mention it because I take it as Vivio using a super-move and end being: pointless. Really she could not do it at all because in the end didn’t even affect her tactic. Just a little nitpick on the matter, is not a great flaw and is sure as hell not the reason why I didn’t like the fight.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

But there is no sword. I can’t say my technique is base on the style that needs a sword and I am kicking. Is really odd actually, kind of stupid to me in some sense. But still I rest my case on the move, is possible, can happen and it will help. Can it be counter? Maybe, we might never know on this particular case. Beside the air pressure around the attack won’t be enough to cause any real damage. We see character avoid such attack all the time and not being send away by wind.

Metaphor. It compared the kick to the slash of a sword. Also, Iaido is usually really hard to counter. Combined with the fact that it's super speed, it's doubly hard.

As for air pressure, it's also cutting damage, not just blunt damage. And it can be quite lethal. Imagine having multiple small cuts on your body.

Going back to the chapters I check them again and I do see a small panel where an explosion is before Vivio uses Sonic Shoot. If that is the shift thing she was charging last episode that was a really good way of setting up something as big and end up in a small panel. I just mention it because I take it as Vivio using a super-move and end being: pointless. Really she could not do it at all because in the end didn’t even affect her tactic. Just a little nitpick on the matter, is not a great flaw and is sure as hell not the reason why I didn’t like the fight.

She said "Sonic Shooter. Fire". so yes, she did fire of that big move. There are two panel involving Sonic Shooter effect actually. The right panel and the bottom panel. And it wasn't pointless. It was used as a distraction so that Vivio can pull a Divine Buster at point blank rank in the next page.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

But there is no sword. I can’t say my technique is base on the style that needs a sword and I am kicking. Is really odd actually, kind of stupid to me in some sense. But still I rest my case on the move, is possible, can happen and it will help. Can it be counter? Maybe, we might never know on this particular case. Beside the air pressure around the attack won’t be enough to cause any real damage. We see character avoid such attack all the time and not being send away by wind.

You can strawman the name all you want, but that doesn't change the basics: Sword Draw is a high-speed attack, it's entire goal is to hit the opponent with max speed and power.

Oh, and iaido has nothing to do with air pressure. Not sure where you pulled that one from, or why it suddenly started to matter.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Pointless to me since those are two characters we never hear about before and so far have seen little after that. Not that I miss them. Specially Chantez. On a story sense pointless because take us away from the fight to scene has nothing to do with it, is not moving any plot and doesn’t affect any event after such scene. That is what I call pointless.

It develops two characters. That's hardly pointless. Yes, it doesn't move the main plot, but every story is filled with such moments. Not every moment of character development needs to move the plot. Heck, it's impossible to do that. And again you not caring about the characters does not make it objectively pointless.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Going back to the chapters I check them again and I do see a small panel where an explosion is before Vivio uses Sonic Shoot. If that is the shift thing she was charging last episode that was a really good way of setting up something as big and end up in a small panel. I just mention it because I take it as Vivio using a super-move and end being: pointless. Really she could not do it at all because in the end didn’t even affect her tactic. Just a little nitpick on the matter, is not a great flaw and is sure as hell not the reason why I didn’t like the fight.

Her calling the attack "Sonic Shooter", the same name as her basic shooting attack, really should have been a clue it wasn't going to be a massive game-ending attack, really.

[Sansker]

The air thing was not my idea, Lhklan mention it actually. So that talk to him about it I really don’t know. And to be fair I don’t think we can compare Miura’s style with the real sword draw technique because she doesn’t have a sword, and that makes it impossible to use the same logic. Is like using kendo while you weapon of choose is a revolver, I will like to see how that goes. Is just that, Miura’s moves are good and maybe have their own technique but you can’t compare it to a style that needs a sword in order to wok, she just doesn’t have the right equipment. That being say, Vivio does use super speed magi acceleration so she could avoid it really in matters of speed that has to do with personal style.

I think it goes beyond I like them or not. If they have nothing to do with what is going on and what will happen later then why they are even there? That is filler and on this case I call it pointless because it really helps nothing. You like it good but I didn’t so that is my take on it and even if I did like them even you have to admit that part really was there just so the number of pages match the other numbers.

Yeah, you see I assume because of how the other chapter end. Making look like when Miura ended a chapter with her sword leg thing. It played with our expectations and delivers a rather bland play off for such set up. I just say it look bad and boring to the point I think it wasn’t the same attack.

[Justin_Brett]

Pointless to me since those are two characters we never hear about before and so far have seen little after that.

What the hell kind of argument is that?

The audience never heard of Nanoha before the first season, and they liked her enough it got a second season.

[Sansker]

Yes but this is not the first season, isn’t it? Or the first chapter for that matter. We already have a large cast we haven’t even start to develop and we waste time with even more characters. That is what I mean

[Kaijo]

That's right! Tertiary characters are bad, because they just come into a scene without us hearing about them before! After all, in order for a story to include a character, it must introduce us to that character first! But they can't introduce us to that character, until they introduce us to that character, because you can't just have a character show up.

Like Griffith in StrikerS. He just showed up! And Fate in S1... she just showed up! We should have known about her before she showed... somehow. I haven't worked that part out yet, but I do know that means Fate is pointless!

[Sansker]

You always take it to extreme, right?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

The air thing was not my idea, Lhklan mention it actually. So that talk to him about it I really don’t know. And to be fair I don’t think we can compare Miura’s style with the real sword draw technique because she doesn’t have a sword, and that makes it impossible to use the same logic. Is like using kendo while you weapon of choose is a revolver, I will like to see how that goes. Is just that, Miura’s moves are good and maybe have their own technique but you can’t compare it to a style that needs a sword in order to wok, she just doesn’t have the right equipment. That being say, Vivio does use super speed magi acceleration so she could avoid it really in matters of speed that has to do with personal style.

Yeah, that's why you're not hearing me talk about the drawing, slashing, cleaning of blood and replacement of the sword in the scabbard, but just the core of the attack: A fast and powerful strike.

Vivio might have speed magic, sure, but that doesn't mean she can outrun Sword Draw. Magic superspeed is powered by magic, and like any magic the more magic you pump in, the more speed comes out. Sword Draw takes the Starlight Breaker approach (and not just figuratively, Nanoha literally says its a breaker type magic) of pumping in a tremendous load of magic.

I'll let that sink in for a moment. This is basically Starlight Breaker in kicking form. That is not a level of magic you just outmaneuver or block without some serious effort of your own.

Originally Posted by Sansker

I think it goes beyond I like them or not.

No, no it doesn't. Because a few posts back you were asking for this exact same thing, only for characters you do like.

It's a pattern that has become more and more apparent, really. If the characters interest you, then we "should have seen more/better character development/fights/winning and every loss they suffer is bad" and if they don't interest you, well then every victory they score is a badly written fight, any character development a waste of time and we should just get back to the plot.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Yeah, you see I assume because of how the other chapter end. Making look like when Miura ended a chapter with her sword leg thing. It played with our expectations and delivers a rather bland play off for such set up. I just say it look bad and boring to the point I think it wasn’t the same attack.

It's. In. The. Name. This isn't rocket science.

[Sansker]

Ok, I can agree is a powerful attack but I still say it can be avoid it when is ground base and requires to do a move as a kick not firing a giant beam of pink doom that can take half of a city in one blow. And for SLB Nanoha did tie up Fate.

And no, it goes beyond I like them or not. I ask for character development and all the rest for Vivio and Einhart, the main characters and for other that might be necessary to keep in order to do a coherent story. I am not asking this for everyone because that will be impossible and we are given with a few lines about two people which their impact so far is more anecdotic that anything else. I want things to make sense. If Chantez and Victoria are needed for the plot then go ahead and make them part of it, if they aren’t then I will not pretend I care.

I know is on the name, I say how it may look to me and maybe even other people, here it comes down and how you may perceive it and I see it as a disappointing result.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Ok, I can agree is a powerful attack but I still say it can be avoid it when is ground base and requires to do a move as a kick not firing a giant beam of pink doom that can take half of a city in one blow. And for SLB Nanoha did tie up Fate.

Yes, because SLB wasn't aimed at increasing physical performance. Sword Draw is what happens when you say "Hey, here is the power of a Starlight Breaker, I wonder how fast this can make you go? Bet a kick with that speed and power would hit like an army of trucks."

Originally Posted by Sansker

And no, it goes beyond I like them or not. I ask for character development and all the rest for Vivio and Einhart, the main characters and for other that might be necessary to keep in order to do a coherent story. I am not asking this for everyone because that will be impossible and we are given with a few lines about two people which their impact so far is more anecdotic that anything else. I want things to make sense. If Chantez and Victoria are needed for the plot then go ahead and make them part of it, if they aren’t then I will not pretend I care.

At this point I'll point out that a lack of development for the secondary characters in StrikerS was one of the main complaints about the season. But, to your point, I will once again repeat: We get that. Hell, Einhart alone has received the most development compared to anyone in the story. Vivio's actually lagging behind because of Einhart's screen-hogging, but shes getting some as we speak, as this fight and the aftermath is a tremendous development for her.

[Sansker]

The Sword Draw is similar to a SLB in the fact they both collect mana but I always assume was Miura’s mana the one she put on arm and legs to use it and deliver powerful blows. The break part is a variation and it can be shoot making the style versatile but still being avoidable, which is the only thing I have say so far and still seems to be possible no matter who I look at it. I mean if the fight is not hold by a small space the attacks are really not that powerful but the same is for any close range fighter so really I don’t care.

StrikerS problem was not just lack of development but excessive amount of characters, which makes it hard to tell who was a main character and who was a secondary character so really is an argument that holds up because of poor writing. Now I know about Einhart, you already mention it before and Vivio as well but this fight is all Einhart and Sieg, we don’t know how the aftermath will be with Vivio.

[Kaijo]

Sansker, if you don't like the logical conclusion of your statements, and if you don't like applying them equally, then perhaps you shouldn't be making them. Or at least, thinking twice before you make them.

[Sansker]

Is not that I don’t like them, I just thing “your” logical conclusions of “my” arguments always left so much out for the sake of make them look like rather stupid.

The truth is I don’t apply things exactly the same way because sometimes things are not the same way. And on the past examples you mention I could show you why is wrong to say Fate is pointless while I do consider Chantez as pointless. Griffith wasn’t important as well. And while I consider strong secondary characters are nice and they do deserve something, I am not in moving away the story to mention them when we are busy on other parts and their subplots doesn’t integrate on the real plot.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

The Sword Draw is similar to a SLB in the fact they both collect mana but I always assume was Miura’s mana the one she put on arm and legs to use it and deliver powerful blows. The break part is a variation and it can be shoot making the style versatile but still being avoidable, which is the only thing I have say so far and still seems to be possible no matter who I look at it. I mean if the fight is not hold by a small space the attacks are really not that powerful but the same is for any close range fighter so really I don’t care.

Is it avoidable? Sure, but only if you provide a counter with high power. Miciah only blocked the first blow with her own powerful attack, while Vivio had to use her superspecial defense. Dodging it would similarely require a lot of magical oomph to get proper speed, and even then it's tricky, since dodging the first kick doesn't mean Miura's done yet. She can, if you note her first fight, hold down the final release trigger of the spell until it suits her.

And yes, if the fight is held in a large open area it would be significantly less effective. You will note I said just that barely six posts ago. For a tournament, this is a perfect attack.

Originally Posted by Sansker

StrikerS problem was not just lack of development but excessive amount of characters, which makes it hard to tell who was a main character and who was a secondary character so really is an argument that holds up because of poor writing.

Introducing and developing excessive amounts of characters has been done well before in many series, so that is never a good argument to say why a series has failed. It was the development of these characters that was done poorly, not their number.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Now I know about Einhart, you already mention it before and Vivio as well but this fight is all Einhart and Sieg, we don’t know how the aftermath will be with Vivio.

I meant the Vivio/Miura fight and its aftermath. But even the Einhart/Sieg fight seems to be getting Vivio involved in the flashbacks.

[Sansker]

But is avoidable which all I say it was, so really let’s just leave it there.

And yes, it is an argument when the number of characters is a problem. You see any character needs a reason to be there and doesn’t matter how many times is done well, it’s also done wrong so using the “too many characters” argument is valid when is fails as it does it here to deliver proper characterization for almost all of them so really having a bunch of bad develop characters is bad because of the poor development and their great numbers. Doesn’t matter how is done in other stories, but how is done here and here is done wrong.

We already talk about the Vivio vs Miura aftermath and I already say why I did not consider it good for Vivio, but it was more than nothing, I will give you that.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

You see any character needs a reason to be there

M'okay, I'm with you so far...

Originally Posted by Sansker

and doesn’t matter how many times is done well, it’s also done wrong so using the “too many characters” argument is valid when is fails as it does it here to deliver proper characterization for almost all of them so really having a bunch of bad develop characters is bad because of the poor development and their great numbers. Doesn’t matter how is done in other stories, but how is done here and here is done wrong.

...aaand now you lost me again. Look, you're right that any character needs a reason to be there, but that doesn't make "too many characters" the thing that was wrong. What went wrong is that not every character had a proper reason to be there. The number isn't what went wrong, the assignment of screentime and development is.

Low number of characters just makes it easier to do that.

Originally Posted by Sansker

We already talk about the Vivio vs Miura aftermath and I already say why I did not consider it good for Vivio, but it was more than nothing, I will give you that.

Which brings us back to the point that started this: Einhart and Miura do get development. In Vivio's case not nearly as much as I'd like, but they do. Which means that the time spend developing the other characters is not a waste, and in fact only helps to avoid a second StrikerS debacle.