2006-07-22, 22:24 | Link #61 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Quite simply, I can imagine a reasonably peaceful Wing universe even if Relena was killed off early, as she wasn't truly pivotal to the peace. But nothing in the CE goodguy camp would function without Lacus. Lacus has actual political power. She is respected, and indeed feared. (Though you can trust her with your life if you are on her side.)
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2006-07-22, 22:32 | Link #62 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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What I can say about Lacus is that she has the infallible character plot hole armor surrounding her person...
Really, if she wanted the war to end, why didn't she decide to crush all those who would most likely do those evil things once and for all? A thorough job? Maybe, to the eyes of those who believe in her. But when you really look at it, how thorough was she in trying to make sure peace goes a long way after what she did in the last war? Instead of safeguarding the peace she worked so hard to win for the rest of the universe, she decides to retire to some island taking care of children. It was something that she and her allies worked so hard for, why didn't she at least make sure that it stays that way by leading ZAFT through the last 2 years? At least she made sure that those who would likely attempt to do something quite afraid of her presence, and that there is no need for Terminal, Factory, and all else besides. Plus, if you look at the way that she achieved those things, who wouldn't think that what she did was treason? Inciting people to rebellion, stealing ZAFT technology for her own use against Patrick Zala, then doing it all over again in GSD...people couldn't think that she could also use that much power and influence and money to wage her own war against those who would try to oppose her? Really, what would you think if some great leader was amassing all those superior MS technology, unleashing it to the world, going by the mask that what he's doing is for the greater peace of the thousands of people throughout the entire world...Lacus went through 2 wars, making sure that she literally crushes her opponents with the best pilots and MS at her disposal, and using what she believes regarding just one little notebook to safely assure the world that Dullindal is a twisted psycopath that needs to be done off with...and getting all those people to believe in her just because she's Lacus Clyne and that they don't need to think about it twice, what she thinks/feels/believes is the best for all mankind... but of course, she has the plot hole armor... At least Relena had to really work hard for her own influence to be gained, even had to be led to be used by others so that she could at least make sure her ideals were safely brought across, and that she really had to stand on her own going against an entire council full of conniving politicians who think otherwise. Of course, she's bound to fail at first, but at least she saw those chances as something that made her believe that she really should work harder in order to make sure that she would be able to get the job done at the end. What the GBoys did was, well, fortunate enough that it was going by what she feels should be done, even if it was done in a different way other than what she think is right. And she made doubly sure by becoming a Vice Minister at the end of Wing, so that she could actually see through it that nothing would hinder what she had finally achieved. Or, at least, be sure that everything would be carefully looked over at.
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2006-07-22, 22:50 | Link #63 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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No, Lacus didn't force world peace with her force of arms...
Because it is not possible to do so via violence. Further, she doesn't believe it is possible unless people actually want peace. Quite simply, Lacus has no intention of forcing her will on other people. That is why she only does just enough to prevent the world from being destroyed. The reason why peace was obtained in Wing was because 1. there is no sequel planned and 2. The politics were simplistic. You can claim how much Lacus is a threat to the world, but that is also exactly why she stay out of the world's way. Trying to label her as an axis of evil isn't going to make much sense, if all she wants to do is to retired at the age of 17 to an island and pick grapes in a vinyard, while surrounded by kids. There is abosolutely no reason not to trust her doing the right thing, because she has always been doing the right thing. She is reliable, and you can't possibly prove otherwise. Power can corrupt, but you can't claim she is corrupt just because she is powerful. Lacus put money where her mouth is. Back on topic, just to prove Lacus is more powerful than Relena... Whould anyone in Wing attempt to make a dummy Relena in order to cash in on her popularity?
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2006-07-22, 22:50 | Link #64 | |||||
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2006-07-22, 23:06 | Link #65 | |
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2006-07-23, 02:11 | Link #66 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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Im pretty sure all she had to do was send Kira and Athrun to space and that alone would be enaugh to pwn twice the amount of ZAFT forces there, even if they both would be in semi-coma and chatting about old times and other crap. And this is no joke - i really think that would happen, seing how anything labeled as 'enemy' simply blows up by the presence of SF and IJ alone. The fleet and crap hardly did anything - Kira - pwned gazzilion of grunts / pwned Legend / pwned Messiah Athrun - Pwned some grunts / Destiny / Impulse / Minerva / Requiem Now what the hell is that fleet even needed for ?
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2006-07-23, 02:18 | Link #67 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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Well, Lacus becomes the new chairman at the end of GSD - why are you overlooking that fact ?
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2006-07-23, 02:28 | Link #68 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Besides, think about it. With Cagalli in control of Orb and Lacus in control of the PLANTs, even *IF* the Earth Alliance restructured their military (which Fukuda stated has been decimated after the final events in Destiny), how in blue fuck would they mount any sort of opposition? Also, think for a second that if Lacus was Chairman, would they let her go anywhere without proper security? Gilbert was always seen with several ZAFT military personnel handcuffed to his side. They wouldn't let Lacus go to Orb with just Kira (who's leaves much to be desired as a bodyguard). There are just numerous reasons within the realm of possibilities, even for Fukuda, that make it nearly impossible to suggest Lacus is in that kind of position after Destiny. No, I say Lacus isn't the Chairman. If anyone, it's probably the woman shaking hands with Cagalli in the epilogue scenes of Destiny. That at least seems logical. |
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2006-07-23, 02:37 | Link #69 | ||
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Arguably, the only significant thing that Relena managed to do was to bring about the downfall of Duke Dermail. Quote:
1. Duke Dermail and Marimeia already tried to use Relena as figureheads. It's not much of a stretch to use a dummy instead. 2. Relena seems to be fairly popular with the masses – perhaps more out of tradition than out of respect for her. 3. The villains in Wing are idiots. They'd do just about anything. Of course, anyone trying to cash in on Relena's popularity with a dummy will also fail miserably: 1. Relena is a politician, so her political views should be fairly well known. Any deviation from that view would be treated treated suspiciously. 2. Relena only has one message: Peace through disarmament. Everybody already knows what she will say, so it wouldn't make much difference whether it's a dummy or not. This message is also incapable of being used to leverage more power. 3. She is an ineffectual leader. In spite of her high position, people are quite likely to just ignore what Relena says: Noins' Sanc Kingdom troops certainly paid no heed to the principle of "total pacifism", and the World Government barely noticed it when Marimeia kidnapped her. 4. There's no need to. Anyone who can put together a small army can simply take over Brussels, and the World Government will roll over on command. The usurper can even bask in the knowledge that there aren't even any Gundams left to stop him.
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2006-07-23, 02:42 | Link #70 |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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well ok, maybe not the chairman, but at least its safe to say that she now has some influence in ZAFT, no ? And security isnt something sh is concerned about usually. Hey - Athruns there, so he can target-practice on any oposition Besides i really doubt she said to anyone but her friends where she is going and ORB isnt exactly a hostile place
Maybe she just re-established Clyne faction in the council , but who knows - anything at this point is just a specualtion
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2006-07-23, 03:10 | Link #72 | |||
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Obviously, this isn't definitive proof, but it is highly suggestive. Quote:
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2006-07-23, 03:28 | Link #73 | |
Lost in my dreams...
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Age: 37
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2006-07-23, 03:46 | Link #75 |
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Nobody knows for sure. There was just a brief scene that does imply it though. Here's a snippet from it: http://darthlacus.ytmnd.com
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2006-07-23, 03:50 | Link #76 | |
Zechs, pilot of Tallgeese
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota.
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2006-07-23, 03:59 | Link #77 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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The on-screen text at the end of Final Plus states two very important things while leaving out anything having to do with Lacus's political statues. First, it says that she helps facilitate the armistice between the PLANTs and Orb. Second, it says she returns to the PLANTs at the request of the Supreme Council. Which is, coincidentally, where we see her in the final scene of Final Plus.
Now, I'm not ruling out Chairman promotion as a possibility, but it just seems unlikely that she would be promoted to Chairman despite several things. She has far less political experience than Cagalli because she did not serve directly under her father during his term. Cagalli worked alongside her father as well as Kisaka, and was concerned enough about the country to get involved with the military projects like the Gundams and the Astrays. And even dispite all this, Cagalli was a total flop of a politician in Destiny, getting pushed around by her own committe of representatives no less. The "Clyne Faction" was her father's group, and it doesn't look like she was involved in it at the earliest until when she decided to let Kira steal the Freedom, but I'd place it more after her father died and she realized Patrick Zala was a racist egomaniac. She does have good connections with her Terminal group, but she does that with a lot of other people voluntarily helping to keep peace. I don't put it outside the realm of possibility that if she even ran for office as Chairman (it is an elected office, after all) that her popularity would lead to a political victory, but I don't see her taking that position. She's not a politician nor has she ever been one. She's an idol singer for Christ's sake. For now I'm filing it under "fan rumor" along with many other things. |
2006-07-23, 05:29 | Link #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I agree that the position of Chairman is a matter of speculation, but I tend to be rather enamored with the idea. I think that it makes the story more interesting, allowing it to move in a bunch of new directions. And, as a personal conceit, becoming Chairman fits in very well with my take on Lacus' character.
I disagree that Lacus would even be bad at that job. She doesn't have any less political experience than Cagalli – she always accompanied her father in public, she was a member of the Peace Foundation, and she was under scrutiny as PLANT's "princess" from early on. In addition, Lacus lacks Cagalli's naivety and is far better at social interaction. This, coupled with her deviousness and deceptive appearance, almost makes her too good as a politician. Then again, PLANT may have simply made a mistake in choosing her as Chairman – this idea is also fairly intriguing. Quote:
You shouldn't put too much faith into labels like "pop idol". After all, Reagan was "just a movie star", and Roosevelt was "just a cripple", and Hitler himself was "just a struggling artist".
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2006-07-23, 06:41 | Link #79 |
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Since we're talking presidents, a lot of presidents appear in public with their family because it makes them appear more human. She may have accompanied her father in public but she was never at council meetings, so public appearances were about the extent. Before she starts giving out free Gundam's and hijacking top secret battleships, she is just a PR girl conducting memorial services and giving her concerts. Cagalli on the other hand is actually invovled with Orb's government, especially on the military side. It's not so far-fetched that she becomes leader of a country in Destiny. To me Lacus's success story is more along the lines of "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows this other guy who can get us this cool battleship so we can start a rebellion." Also, Lacus doesn't strike me as a power hungry individual, so her taking high office like that comes across as extremely out of character.
And I meant that there are a lot of people in Terminal who are there because they want peace, not because they want to be in the Lacus Clyne fan club. Sure it helps that she's a major player in the organization but I don't see her proactively using her name and reputation to recruit people for Terminal. Peace is a pretty common goal during wartime and it doesn't look like there are any other anti-war factions in the CE universe at this time. |
2006-07-23, 07:03 | Link #80 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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political experience means little, since Lacus seems to have the hang of it, while Cagali , despite her experience doesnt understand anything
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