To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Mikoto is powerful, but she can't be everywhere at once. 20,000 is a lot, even if it's pure cannon fodder.

Mikoto letting herself get drugged/paralyzed in Episode 22 is still bad, but it's not depowering so much as it's a light touch of PIS. I mean, it's not like she was shown to be weaker than normal (i.e. unable to do things you'd think she could do even when she tried), but rather that she made a bad decision because the plot required her too.


This final arc definitely has issues, but I do think it's better than nothing at all. If nothing else, it has provided good character development and provided some fun and interesting scenes.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

My only and worst complaint is that the bad guys plain suck.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Its a problem because it feels forced. When a character's capabilities have to be cut on half in order to allow another character or group of characters to be useful, it creates narrative problems and people begin to question why didn't Misaka do x or y instead.

The thing is that I'm just not seeing this as of yet. All I can see here is Misaka not working herself to physical or emotional exhaustion as she did in the previous arc, which is a good thing by my standards.

Its the same with Anti-Skill. The situation as presented there is like saying the American Military wouldn't step in to stop a terrorist threat because the company that supplies their weapons doesn't want them to.

I don't agree with this analogy because 1) physical evidence to support their claims is lacking, and 2) it's fairly apparent that Study Corporation is pulling the strings from somewhere up, much more than simply providing Anti-Skill's weapons.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Its a problem because it feels forced. When a character's capabilities have to be cut on half in order to allow another character or group of characters to be useful, it creates narrative problems and people begin to question why didn't Misaka do x or y instead.

You mean like during the Accelarator vs Touma fight when Accelarator decided to go to gravely injured Touma head on when the supposed genius could have just thrown something at him?

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Haak

You mean like during the Accelarator vs Touma fight when Accelarator decided to go to gravely injured Touma head on when the supposed genius could have just thrown something at him?

The issue is that you're forgetting about Accelerator's mental state. That was the sole reason why he charged at Touma instead of attacking from a distance. At the same time, it's also the reason why Accelerator gave up after a punch to the face.

[Haak]

And how exactly is that any less forced? If you really want to go there, it just sounds like Plot Induced Stupidity to me.

Let me give another example: The whole plan of ending the Level 6 experiment relies of Academy City collected enough evidence to suggest Accelerator was defeated by a Level 0, but not enough data to prove Mikoto's presence during the fight, and the 1000 or so Sisters' interference. How do they collect this information? We have no idea. It's hard to make sense how they would but apparently that's exactly what happens. Nobody questions it either. It just happens and suddenly everything is okay. The whole plan to end the project relies on an incredibly ambiguous yet fundamental plot device.

I didn't about it then and I don't care about it know. But the question is, how is that any less forced than what we're seeing here?

[Draco Spirit]

More a case of Touma argument about the sisters life being worth a dam having a effect on Accelerator IMHO. He pretty much wants the last punch in the face to happen.

[Haak]

That sounds even more forced.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Haak

And how exactly is that any less forced? If you really want to go there, it just sounds like Plot Induced Stupidity to me.

Let me give another example: The whole plan of ending the Level 6 experiment relies of Academy City collected enough evidence to suggest Accelerator was defeated by a Level 0, but not enough data to prove Mikoto's presence during the fight, and the 10000 or so Sisters' interference. How do they collect this information? We have no idea. It's hard to make sense how they would but apparently that's exactly what happens. Nobody questions it either. It just happens and suddenly everything is okay. The whole plan to end the project relies on an incredibly ambiguous yet fundamental plot device.

One, it's more like character induced stupidity than plot induced stupidity. Accelerator, for probably the first time in his life, was hit by a Level 0 in the face multiple times (note how he reacted when he was first hit and first saw his own blood), lost his big finishing move, and then saw the guy he threw into a wind turbine standing up. Combine that with the fact that Accelerator is not exactly the poster boy for sanity at this point in time (understatement ) and you can see why he just decided to charge at him. He snapped and lost any and all form of coherent, logical, tactical thought. That's character induced stupidity, not plot induced stupidity. That is far more acceptable (and if anything, better for character development).

Also, with regards to Mikoto's presence--Mikoto and the Sisters never made a direct move against Accelerator. They just did something to the environment but they never attacked Accelerator directly after Touma came into the picture.

My problem in this arc is not with Mikoto but with our antagonists. They lack what a good villain should have. There is nothing that makes them memorable or outstanding.

[Draco Spirit]

The more long winded version can be explain as follows, I try to do it in "Accelerator vision".

Accelerator sees the sisters as nothing more than dolls to help him become level 6. There not 'real' people to him, through part of him doubt that enough to try and get emotion responses out of them, but the sisters are too mentally immature to fully deal with emotions, so they keep to the plan and follow the rules and role they been provided.

Since they don't react, Accelerator feel the idea there unfeeling dolls is accurate, he treats them as nothing more than stepping stones towards his objective of reaching level 6 and never having to fight anyone again, because the idea of even trying to fight him would be impossible (at least he thinks that anyway).

But then Touma turns up.

By all rights, the fool Touma should be terrified of Accelerator, but Touma is willing to fight for the sisters sake, even if that means fighting someone as insanely powerful as Accelerator.

Accelerator throws his very best at Touma, but Touma, this level 0, keeps fighting, keep taking it and he makes Accelerator for the very first time in his life know what pain feels like.

And he constantly berates Accelerator, telling him how the sisters try so hard for him.

Then Accelerator learn a new power, plasma, a power so great and powerful that there no argument that can counter it, but the sisters disrupt it, for Touma's sake.

And the hero Touma stands up before the monster Accelerator. Dispute the fact he can hardly stand, despite the fact his body is a wreck..... So the evil Accelerator charges the heroic Touma and justly gets punched in the face and knocked out.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by zaeraal

Antiskills are always incompetent. It does not matter if it is Index / Railgun Anime, PSP Game or Movie.

No, Anti-skill has always had the task of fighting canon fodder like this. They've always shown up to do that.

Saten, Uiharu, Kuroko nor Kongo have done absolutely nothing important yet to really contribute to the story.
Everything important was done by Mikoto alone. She even gets to deal with the bad guys at the end by herself.

So far doesn't matter, all of this illogical stuff is happening specifically so that they can fight those robots. That's what we're mad about.

Everything they practically do are beating the robots so Mikoto can save Febli.
If they suddenly dissapeared, then nothing would have changed. So I think blaming this on them is quite wrong.

Yes, JCStaff could have done better with some parts, but that's bad writting, not fault of some extra characters doing... nothing...

JCStaff is who we're blaming. That's what all of our complaints have been about. No one is blaming the characters as that would make no sense at all.

I don't agree with this analogy because 1) physical evidence to support their claims is lacking, and 2) it's fairly apparent that Study Corporation is pulling the strings from somewhere up, much more than simply providing Anti-Skill's weapons.

The problem is STUDY having any control over Anti-Skill at all is ridiculous. This is a group of five high school students who are largely ignored. How the hell would they get the money/resources to become Anti-Skills main supplier?

EDIT:

Maybe there are some problems with the storyline here, but in my opinion it is certainly better than nothing. I appreciate the world-building. Also, anything is weak in comparison to Kamachi's latest creations in the parent story, so I think the standards being used to judge how good this is are rather high

Just because it's a filler doesn't mean we just have to be okay with it being bad.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

The problem is STUDY having any control over Anti-Skill at all is ridiculous. This is a group of five high school students who are largely ignored. How the hell would they get the money/resources to become Anti-Skills main supplier?

That's how it was written, so it is same to assume that they do have a considerable deal of clout behind them. They might have underground connections, or maybe even some higher up. The fact is that someone with pull must be sponsoring those ethically questionable experiments of theirs in the first place.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

Let me give another example: The whole plan of ending the Level 6 experiment relies of Academy City collected enough evidence to suggest Accelerator was defeated by a Level 0, but not enough data to prove Mikoto's presence during the fight, and the 1000 or so Sisters' interference. How do they collect this information? We have no idea. It's hard to make sense how they would but apparently that's exactly what happens. Nobody questions it either. It just happens and suddenly everything is okay. The whole plan to end the project relies on an incredibly ambiguous yet fundamental plot device.

Touma alone was supposed to defeat Accelerator, that was the plan (and I thought it was clearly stated). But when he was about to be wiped out Mikoto and Sisters helped in order to save him. It wasn't the plan, but they had no option.

BTW, AC did see all that happened (at least Aleister did), the fact that it isn't mentioned here doesn't mean they didn't.

Anyway, afterwards Touma ask about the result, not being sure if the experiments had stopped, but they did. Touma and CO don't really know why, but what can they do about it? In fact, if Mikoto knew the real reasons then she wouldn't have much to worry about during Index's Remnant arc.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Qilin

That's how it was written, so it is same to assume that they do have a considerable deal of clout behind them. They might have underground connections, or maybe even some higher up. The fact is that someone with pull must be sponsoring those ethically questionable experiments of theirs in the first place.

It specifically showed that they aren't being sponsored, in that scene with Gensei, and it was also established that they are mostly ignored by the community so they can't be that wealthy.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

It specifically showed that they aren't being sponsored, in that scene with Gensei, and it was also established that they are mostly ignored by the community so they can't be that wealthy.

That shows that their funding doesn't come from there at least. No more, no less. The "community" isn't a homogenous hivemind as far as I'm aware of.

I know you're determined to look at this little detail as a plot hole, but that's not necessarily the case here.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Qilin

That shows that their funding doesn't come from there at least. No more, no less. The "community" isn't a homogenous hivemind as far as I'm aware of.

I know you're determined to look at this little detail as a plot hole, but that's not necessarily the case here.

Okay if there's any evidence of that at all in the next episode then that's fine. I won't bring it up until then. But atm there's absolutely no evidence about that, and a lot of things saying there isn't. I mean if someone has given them the resources to do something like this (which has to be ridiculously expensive) why would they believe they are overlooked?

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Okay if there's any evidence of that at all in the next episode then that's fine. I won't bring it up until then. But atm there's absolutely no evidence about that, and a lot of things saying there isn't.

Likewise, there's hardly any conclusive evidence that points to it being plot hole especially since there aren't any outright contradictions.

I mean if someone has given them the resources to do something like this (which has to be ridiculously expensive) why would they believe they are overlooked?

These guys want to be recognized by everyone... the academe, the espers, the entire city, everyone. It's for that reason they retreated into the city's darkness.

[Ilidsor]

Look we'll argue this after the next episode. There's no point when it could turn out next episode that they had a backer. I have a lot of things to say, but until then we'll just let it rest.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Look we'll argue this after the next episode. There's no point when it could turn out next episode that they had a backer. I have a lot of things to say, but until then we'll just let it rest.

If you say so.

[SilverTalon]

Originally Posted by Haak

Let me give another example: The whole plan of ending the Level 6 experiment relies of Academy City collected enough evidence to suggest Accelerator was defeated by a Level 0, but not enough data to prove Mikoto's presence during the fight, and the 1000 or so Sisters' interference.

No, the calling off of the experiment makes sense even with the interference. Touma's plan was to defeat Accel alone and prove he wasn't the strongest, but really as Mikoto explained with her stupid plan, all they needed to do was interfere enough so that they would have to recalculate the experiment which was impossible. Accel losing sounds like a good reason to have to recalculate everything.

Originally Posted by Qilin

That's how it was written, so it is same to assume that they do have a considerable deal of clout behind them. They might have underground connections, or maybe even some higher up. The fact is that someone with pull must be sponsoring those ethically questionable experiments of theirs in the first place.

Why do we need to assume that? All the evidence supports that their backing is from the influence and wealth accumulated by their own company (which I'd say is implied to be founded by 5 'geniuses' so they could have conceivably made a huge sum of money patenting inventions or whatever). There is absolutely no evidence anywhere suggesting some one higher up than STUDY corporation is involved. Also their only clout so far was over anti skill and was explained by STUDY making their equipment. If they really had that much clout, ITEM would not have gone back after them.

They don't necessarily need a sponsor to do the experiments either because no one knows about them. Level 6 Shift needed backing because all the big shots in the city knew it was going on. Thats not the same as some kids secretly cooking something up in their basement.