2013-07-12, 22:18 | Link #401 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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If you want characters other than the protagonist to be more competent, then instead of making the protagonist more incompetent, how about showing the other characters being... you know, competent by showing them finding the clues Naegi couldn't find onscreen? I understand the time constraints and all, but I fail to see how the exclusion of good work done by the protagonist supports the argument that the other characters did it for him. |
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2013-07-12, 22:27 | Link #402 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2013-07-12, 22:39 | Link #403 |
Enjoying Snack Time!
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Granted but at the same time it doesn't hurt to make a suggestion every now and them. I mean, this type of series can have broad topics of discussion and at the fact that there are people who have played the game, and have shared their views and points when it comes to said adaptation. Whether or not it's a pointless thing I'm doing, as a user I can at least make a suggestion. Whether it gets accepted or not, oh well, but like I said it doesn't hurt to ask or suggest something.
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2013-07-12, 22:44 | Link #404 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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I realize that this diminishes the "fair play mystery" aspect of the story but honestly in the game the mysteries were hardly mysterious at all since they spoon-fed everything to you. An anime certainly doesn't need a "tutorial" case where the solution is way too obvious. Given these restraints, it makes sense to focus on the storytelling itself rather than the mystery, and the best place to do that is in the Class Trial. That's where all the drama and intrigue and twists happen. So instead of "I talked to X about Y so Z", you just have X talk about Y on her own. Does it really matter if Naegi is in a position to solve the mystery on his own? |
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2013-07-12, 23:00 | Link #405 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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Further more, in properties like these, Phoenix Wright, Ghost Trick, Detective Conan, etc., the mystery is solved by the viewers as the clues are collected. Not during the trial and the accusation. If you haven't solved the mystery by the time the trial or accusation has occurred then you've effectively failed to solve the mystery in time. Now granted, in the case of a trial there can be more information that comes up, and even a twist that turns the whole case upside-down. In anime and games like this a twist is always a popular choice. If that happens then naturally you wouldn't be able to draw the proper conclusion until mid-trial or accusation. However, the clues are every bit as important then as they were before. Evidence is very important.
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2013-07-12, 23:13 | Link #407 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Anyway, the point is that an anime doesn't need to make the case solvable. It's simply a different medium. Now, traditionally murder mysteries have always had an obligation to "play fair" with the readers and give them the evidence they need, but the cases in this case are so simple that do so would remove the entire point of being a mystery? It was dumbed down so that the average player could solve it, but if the average viewer can solve it just as easily then it's simply a boring mystery. The solution to that is found in the drama and suspense of the Class Trial itself, which the anime obviously intends to emphasize. This was the same in Phoenix Wright: the investigations were really boring but the trials were funny and dramatic and awesome. People remember "Objection!" more than they do clicking on everything over and over again, don't they? In short, this is not a game so I'm not expecting it to be exactly like the game. Because if it was it'd be bad. |
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2013-07-12, 23:29 | Link #409 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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Proposing that the brunt of the mystery should be placed in the trial is a bit strange with that having been said. When a character is searching for clues, the player or the viewers typically is eagerly awaiting every clue and expectation so that they can try to figure out the mystery before it's revealed. Additionally, when a new twist is introduced there then has to be a stall so that the viewer can wrap their head around it and fit it into place. Typically this is done via cliffhangers. The twist is revealed, and then the episode ends. That having been said, I see no reason why they would choose to disobey that formula and instead elect to hold the trial as the focus of the series, as this is where all the information is gathered and delivered. Unless they have a trick up their sleeve for making this work, I see it going downhill.
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2013-07-12, 23:30 | Link #410 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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That is not the case here - the investigation is cut short, so the viewers are not given all the cards needed to figure out the winning hand. Again, I don't see how the lack of evidence presented during the investigation suddenly makes the other characters more competent - for all we know, they should have the same number of cards as Naegi does because we are never shown a reason why they would find more. Yet here you are telling me that's exactly what happened, and that everything the other characters present during the trials were properly found during a part of the investigation the viewers never saw? Your argument does not follow. Instead, what you want suggests that they should have still shown an extensive investigation - just one where the others do more work. Also, keep in mind that a murder mystery is not simply limited to finding the culprit, but why the person did it as well as the rest of the circumstances surrounding the murder. Just because naming the culprit is easy does not meaning explaining to others how and why it happened is, and as such it does not justify leaving out clues. |
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2013-07-12, 23:32 | Link #411 | |
Meister
Join Date: Jul 2010
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But yes, Suicide is out as just by looking at the the ripped clothes and 1 other evidence found at trash room, they imply that she was outside her room ("Naegi"'s room.) before the murder, and the murderer might have been the one who hit her. (This might explain the bruise on her hand.) One question to Clarami: Wouldnt the dying message may give the impression that the killer wanted to reinforce the blame to Naegi. With the roomplate swapped and the dying message, they might give off the feeling that the killer really tried to push the blame on him.
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Last edited by Scarletknive; 2013-07-12 at 23:43. |
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2013-07-12, 23:41 | Link #412 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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The other things you suggest would involve taking the perspective away from Naegi. Which isn't really plausible in a mystery because you're supposed to start out suspecting everyone. Did you even think about that part at all? Naegi is the only one we know for sure is innocent because we're privy to his thoughts (unless he's schizophrenic or something). |
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2013-07-13, 01:09 | Link #413 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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It's really very simple. To do it correctly you weigh the amount of time spent on the clues or trial based on the case itself. You know, like any reasonable studio would do. Include the relevant and entertaining information. If you have to go barebones, you choose the best material available to you. The fact that they seem to think that the trial is their best material is strange. I'm not the only one who thinks that either. Imagine if you filmed "The Hunt for Red October" and took out all of the conversation about Sean Connery's character. Or if you fast-forwarded to the end of an episode of Detective Conan so all you see is: "SHE USED THE WIRE AND IT CUT HIS HEAD OFF ON THE TRAIN! JAAAAIIIIL!" No matter how dramatic or entertaining the trial may be, it's not exactly worth watching if all you see is the end result. Keep in mind, I haven't even brought CSI into the equation. CSI pushes back the endgame to an extreme compared to these Japanese murder mysteries. No matter how I look at it, shifting focus onto the trial doesn't make sense. Like I've said, if they continue to do this throughout the anime they'll be sorely disappointed in its results.
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2013-07-13, 01:41 | Link #414 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Glad to see I wasn't the only one who had the idea of giving the series its own forum! Yeah, I think now's as good a time as any to make one thanks to all the exposure out there. Anyway, I already brought the subject up to Klashikari via PM, and this was the response he gave me: Quote:
So yes, the idea IS being put under consideration. And hopefully we'll get a forum soon so we can separate all of the game talk from the anime discussion (I'm already a bit guilty of making one or two comparisons between them both myself, lol ). |
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2013-07-13, 02:41 | Link #415 | |
Expressionless
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Walking on the path known as life
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2013-07-13, 06:33 | Link #416 |
~Omedetô~
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell !
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So the idol & model are already dead....
What if Sayaka was the first one to attack the "guy" but end up dying instead... At least , it was pretty clear that she faked her facade on Naive Naegi. My guess wasn't wrong |
2013-07-13, 07:07 | Link #418 |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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In case you all missed this, our wonderful mod friend Klashikari compiled the information that you anime viewers are all missing because of the investigation butchering.
Here's that link. If you're interested in trying to figure it all out ahead of time you'll need this. Beyond that the unfortunate thing is that without an ElectroID you can't view the student profiles (or the floor plan). Perhaps if this butchering continues to be an issue some people can be nice enough to infodump the floor plan. Spoiler for Janitor info omitted from the episodes:
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2013-07-13, 08:05 | Link #419 | |
whatever
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: wherever
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2013-07-13, 08:08 | Link #420 | |
:cool:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Idaho
Age: 32
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I suspect, the answer is... DESPAIR Edit: You know I realized now that the saddest thing about the lack of conversations with other characters is that it doesn't spur the borderline-inevitable "Waifu!" conversations. If you ever watch a stream of the game, "X is my waifu" all up and down. Especially funny when people decide that Maizono will be their waifu right off the bat.
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