Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by brightman

Yeah, his characters actually looked unique back then, with the main characters each having a different face and such... Lately, he's just using his standard big eyes face for just about everybody.

IMO Shinn would have been better received had he received Kazuma's face or something.

To be fair with Hirai though, its the director's duty to give design guidelines and to approve character designs, so perhaps a reason for Hirai's loss of originality was Fukuda himself. (and the designs in Fafner and HA are a result of Xebec's guys trying to rake in Seed's success...)

You could be right,

Originally Posted by from wikipedia on Fukuda

Gear Fighter Dendoh character designer Hisayuki Hirokazu refers to him in comments published on his "Flame Talk" web site as "my greatest ally and worst enemy", in reference to his habit of rejecting character designs other directors might accept.

If that is true then maybe Fukuda rejected lot of those characters and maybe Fukuda only accepted those unoriginal character design.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by hyperlion

You could be right, If that is true then maybe Fukuda rejected lot of those characters and maybe Fukuda only accepted those unoriginal character design.

Yup, Kunio Okawara said the same thing about mecha designs in Seed... And we all know how "original" those are.

[Eidolon Sniper]

LOL at SEED mech designs.

[Ledgem]

What a fun thread, I see a lot of people that I often see posting around other areas of the forum as well.

I couldn't find it in here - where are you all getting your information that Kira and Lacus are in ZAFT now? The series is 50 episodes (plus the recap episode, called "edit") right? I just finished 50, and there's no indication of that... was it speculation?

[OMG_Zerg_Rush]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

What a fun thread, I see a lot of people that I often see posting around other areas of the forum as well.

I couldn't find it in here - where are you all getting your information that Kira and Lacus are in ZAFT now? The series is 50 episodes (plus the recap episode, called "edit") right? I just finished 50, and there's no indication of that... was it speculation?

the last clip in the final GSD SE has them joining zaft
________
Big Dick Tube

[Azure22]

Okay, here's a question. I haven't read this entire thread, so maybe there was an answer before the question of Shinn vs. Camille came up, but I really didn't see much of a trace of it, so I figured I'd just ask... Shinn was discarded as a main character, thus causing his character development to (much like the series itself) stagnate. Do we know what plans Fukuda had for Shinn before they decided to scrap him? I mean, we know that, in Gundam SEED, Kira was supposed to die at the end, but his popularity saved him. Have we gotten any such information about what was supposed to happen to Shinn?

[OMG_Zerg_Rush]

From what ive been told he was ment to kill kira in the final battle.
________
FORD THUNDERBIRD

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Panon

Uh, no, he is an INCREDIBLE whiner at the start of the series.

He has a violent tantrum over hearing someone make a joke about his name, and his first action when getting into the Gundam is to threaten to stomp on one of the Titans officers who bullied him like a spiteful child.

Shinn is a saint compared to Kamille at his worst.

So what if he takes his name personally? If I go to a mosque and start making fun of Muslims you think I wouldn't be kicked out?

Kamille at his worst punched a Titan and threatened to crush another Titan with a Gundam. I am sure all the people who were being oppressed by the Titans would've cheered.

Sadistic soldier? Mindless puppet? Did you even watch the same Destiny everybody else did?

You have to admit that Shinn did have a bit of sadistic streak in GSD when he was slaughtering people in one of the Orb battles. He was like a little puppy on a leash extending from Chairman Gil's hand at the end when he was getting all those awards.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

kiramuro, I think you're letting your annoyance with Shinn cloud your thinking...Honestly you wouldn't be the first...

Quite possibly but that is the whole point isn't it since the argument is about which character annoyed you from the beginning to the end.

If you call Shinn whining him being pi$$ed at Cagali while on Minerva because he blamed her father for the death of his family then sign me up for whiners camp...Early on in the show Shinn only acted out toward Cagali...It wasn't until Athrun was named as his commander did he start to meander and whine a bit in an alpha-dawg struggle...Cammille on the other hand was already pi$$ed he had a girl's name, blew off his teachers and classmates because he was a brat, and tried to rebel against his absentee father...Much bigger "whiner" if that's the word you wanna use, but after his mother got cracked open like a decoder ring in a 25cent capsule machine he became filled with much more hatred and darkness...

Honestly I just can't reconcile the word whiner with the word rebel because they refer to completely different types of personalities. The word rebel usually conjures up an image of a tough guy who likes to say "fuck you" to the authorities. The whiner on the other hand is someone who wallows in his self-pitying pool of personal problems. The only time Kamille became the latter was when he complained briefly about his parents but that was very short lived. Every other acts that you listed above showed that he is more of a rebel just with a high pitch voice and no cussing.

Eps- 1-2 he acted like a latch-key kid acting out because he wanted attention (or lacked attention from his father)...Shinn's disposition conversely was based on the brutal death of his family inwhich he was a party (So in the beginning Cammille was the kid acting out for attention, while Shinn was the one acting out because his family's dead--So who's whining now?) ....The only real difference between the two characters is that one got honest development as a main character while the other was discarded as a main character making his development stagnate...

Now we come to the crux of the matter i.e. why I don't like Shinn at all. It's precisely because even after 2 years he is still stuck in his self-pitying grief about the death of his family. In essence Shinn represents one of those people who thinks that one's happiness should be measured in the amount of tragedy one has suffered in the past.

Of course all of this is just my personal opinions. Obviously you guys disagree with them but that is fine. I am just contending that even if Shinn had developed just like Kamille he still would've been an unlikable character for me just because my initial impression of him is one of gross aversion.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Now we come to the crux of the matter i.e. why I don't like Shinn at all. It's precisely because even after 2 years he is still stuck in his self-pitying grief about the death of his family. In essence Shinn represents one of those people who thinks that one's happiness should be measured in the amount of tragedy one has suffered in the past.

Of course all of this is just my personal opinions. Obviously you guys disagree with them but that is fine. I am just contending that even if Shinn had developed just like Kamille he still would've been an unlikable character for me just because my initial impression of him is one of gross aversion.

Well, I support you on that one. I hated Shinn as well, because he seemingly had very little character development, and he always seemed to be on the wrong end of things. Or perhaps, even if he was on the right end, the fact that Athrun or Kira disapproved of it made it feel like Shinn was still doing something wrong. It really made for a very strange series; the previous main characters were far too involved for the "new" main characters to really feel like main characters at all. Almost from the start, Shinn's defiant attitude towards Athrun and Cagalli made me wish he'd be punched. The viewer, having seen the previous characters' struggling and suffering, most likely wouldn't be tolerant of a new character disrespecting that.

The other big issue I had was with Shinn and Stellar. When she's stampeding in the Destroy, Shinn just wants people to stop attacking her. What happened to the idea that war shouldn't happen? The same situation that killed his family is occurring on a larger scale below him (entire city was destroyed), and yet he can't bring himself to attack her. As if it's not bad enough, when Kira (whom 99% of the viewers love, based off of GSeed) steps in to stop the carnage, Shinn suddenly gets vengeful. I think that was it for me with Shinn - he didn't even seem conflicted over much, just a closed-minded character on the wrong side who's getting too much animation time.

Wierd way to do a series, indeed.

[Azure22]

Jeez, am I the only person here who really likes Shinn?

You people are saying that you don't like him 'cause he's still upset that his family died two years ago. Let's face it, though: We didn't really see him moping before he started fighting again, or before he came into contact with people from/representing Orb. He's still carrying around his younger sister's cell phone, yeah, but that's not the same as having a pity party for two years. He's got friends, he was out shopping with Youlan, wasn't he? It's not like he was a jerk to everyone else, and it's not like he completely shut himself off from the world.

He just bears a grudge against Orb.

I'd say it makes enough sense. Grudges can resurface after coming into contact with people or ideals that remind us of our pasts. He doesn't like the earth alliance, of course, because they attacked his country and hate coordinators, so that aspect of him isn't explored as much because, let's face it, almost all the coordinators we see have some problem with the earth alliance. But it makes sense, too, that he'd bear serious resentment to the country that he felt was naive. Ever had someone say to you "but I was just trying to help!" when you were really pissed off? Does the fact that they were TRYING to do something they thought was good help at all? Maybe it does for other people, but I've never particularly felt that way.

Now let's say that the person who was "just trying to help" ended up contributing to the death of someone important to you, and two years later someone comes up to you and starts saying the same goddamn stuff you heard before from the helper-person. You might bear a grudge. You might disagree with their ideals. Just a little bit.

So yeah, we see Shinn mouth off towards Cagalli and Athrun, not knowing what they've been through, but we're only upset with him 'cause most viewers are biased towards them. Let's say someone we all hate was saying the stuff Cagalli was saying, and Shinn gave them a hard time. Most people would cheer Shinn on. Goddamn, don't ask me why, but when people are so biased towards the old characters, it bothers me... Probably just 'cause that bias in popularity effected the events in Gundam SEED Destiny too much, and made it so much worse than it could have been. Too many people were too infatuated with the old characters to try and see new ones blossoming...

The other big issue I had was with Shinn and Stellar. When she's stampeding in the Destroy, Shinn just wants people to stop attacking her. What happened to the idea that war shouldn't happen? The same situation that killed his family is occurring on a larger scale below him (entire city was destroyed), and yet he can't bring himself to attack her. As if it's not bad enough, when Kira (whom 99% of the viewers love, based off of GSeed) steps in to stop the carnage, Shinn suddenly gets vengeful. I think that was it for me with Shinn - he didn't even seem conflicted over much, just a closed-minded character on the wrong side who's getting too much animation time.

Anyone else remember that it was a misfire from Freedom that killed his family? Yeah, if I was busy trying to calm someone down who happened to have somethin' that could kill a buncha people, and then the dude who accidently killed my family started tryin' to do things his own way (after already contributing to the death of other characters, such as Heine, now), I wouldn't be none too happy either. And yes, of course Shinn can't bring himself to attack her, not when he thinks he has a shot of calming her down. He almost got her to stop completely before she saw the Freedom again... Proof that Kira screws stuff up. Now, if someone you cared about was going on a rampage in Destroy and (you suspect) they don't really know what they're doing, would your impulse be to attack them? Shinn did somethin' very human: He tried to talk to her. But talking doesn't always work. He was trying to stop the carnage going on beneath him, but through a less violent method, because he believed it was POSSIBLE.

And about saying "what happened to the idea that war shouldn't happen?" I think that Shinn doesn't disagree with the idea of war, he's not so optimistic about humanity. He believes fighting should be done PRECISELY because of what happened to his family. If Orb had fought sooner, I assume Shinn thinks, the mainland of Orb might have been saved. Perhaps if they'd started moving civilians out before the attack, or perhaps by launching the first strike and gaining an early advantage, they may have been saved. He never advocated that Orb should lay down it's weapons against the Earth Alliance, he never argued that war should not occur, and he never said that pacifism was the answer.

It's worth noting that he did exactly what Orb did against the earth alliance in terms of what he did against Destroy. Orb tried to rely on negotiations, on diplomacy, on words, and it didn't work. Shinn tried to use those same words to reason with Stellar. Does this make him a hypocrite? Hell yeah. But aren't we all hypocrites? Aren't all humans? Yeah, we try not to be, but Shinn was raised in Orb, so there's the innate Orbian in him talking when he tried to calm Stellar down. He hates Orb's ideals, but he's still influenced by them, and I think this makes him a deeply human character... He just didn't really have a chance to shine, thanks to the people who loved the old characters too much to give new ones a shot.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Azure22

So yeah, we see Shinn mouth off towards Cagalli and Athrun, not knowing what they've been through, but we're only upset with him 'cause most viewers are biased towards them. Let's say someone we all hate was saying the stuff Cagalli was saying, and Shinn gave them a hard time. Most people would cheer Shinn on. Goddamn, don't ask me why, but when people are so biased towards the old characters, it bothers me... Probably just 'cause that bias in popularity effected the events in Gundam SEED Destiny too much, and made it so much worse than it could have been. Too many people were too infatuated with the old characters to try and see new ones blossoming...

Well, here's what's interesting about it: in most series that introduce new characters, while the old ones are still around, generally the new and old characters are on the same "side" of things. The old ones either pass on the torch to the new characters, or they come in to save the new ones every now and then... you get the idea. The only other series I've seen that botched new characters' introduction was Stratos 4: Second Flight (or whatever it was called), where three new pilots were introduced, only to have the original four return with drama of their own. I have to wonder if it wasn't intentional there, though, as even the new characters complain (comically) about how they just got here and already they've been sidelined.

But here, you have the old characters completely fighting with the new characters. Even worse, the new characters were completely aligned with the force of "evil" in the series. If Shinn had come around and fought alongside Kira and Athrun, or had they joined the plan, maybe people would have come to accept him more. One could argue that there was no evil - both sides wanted to prevent war, but had their own ways of doing it. That'd be valid, except that Athrun and Kira already have the just side in our minds, and the cinematic portrayals of the opposing side (ZAFT) made them seem evil, no matter how you put it.

I also understand where you're coming from with regard to Shinn getting upset at Cagalli, but when Shinn said "you don't know anything" (a few times, if I remember right), you really didn't feel anything? That's what set me off. We'd watched all of those characters struggle throughout the entire first series with the "realities of war" and finally reach a decision about how to deal with it. Then Shinn is there saying how they don't know anything, when he's only participated in a single battle? I wasn't very tolerant of that.

Anyone else remember that it was a misfire from Freedom that killed his family?

I always thought that it was a fire from Raider (or whichever the blue one was) while engaged in a battle with Freedom and Justice. If it was Freedom, you do have a point and it does explain some of Shinn's hatred. As far as I can remember the series didn't clearly show that it was a shot from Freedom - I'll have to rewatch those sequences and get back to you on that.

They also do not play it up that Shinn wants revenge on Freedom for killing his family. Shinn just wants to take out Freedom because Freedom is powerful, and also because Freedom did kill Stellar. The revenge aspect was drawn from that.

(after already contributing to the death of other characters, such as Heine, now), I wouldn't be none too happy either.

It also bothers me how all of the characters attributed Heine's death to Kira. Stellar killed Heine, combined with Heine's own lack of awareness of what was going on around him. Kira disabled one of his weapons, sure, but even if Heine was fully loaded, getting sliced in the back by a character that you were previously fighting with isn't Kira's fault. Heck, Kira wasn't even facing him when it happened. Do you want to blame Kira for not being omnipotent, and for not saving Heine from Stellar?

Actually, there's another loop of reasoning for why I get angry about Shinn. Shinn blames Kira for the death of Heine (although not as much as Athrun), and also for the death of Stellar. He also treats Stellar as if she had done nothing wrong. Yet, it was really Stellar that killed Heine. It just seems like two wrongs: letting Stellar get off of blame free, and then placing what should be her blame on Kira (who arguably had the purest intentions, even).

And yes, of course Shinn can't bring himself to attack her, not when he thinks he has a shot of calming her down. He almost got her to stop completely before she saw the Freedom again... Proof that Kira screws stuff up.

Blaming Kira again. Kira was off floating in the distance, and drifted into Stellar's view. Kira didn't suddenly get up in front of Shinn. He even held back and gave Shinn a chance. Is it Kira's fault that he was spotted, and that Stellar had such mental issues that she was driven into a panic by the mere sight of him? Are you going to blame Kira for then stepping in and trying to save what was left of the populace and the city by going after the Destroy?

It's worth noting that he did exactly what Orb did against the earth alliance in terms of what he did against Destroy. Orb tried to rely on negotiations, on diplomacy, on words, and it didn't work. Shinn tried to use those same words to reason with Stellar. Does this make him a hypocrite? Hell yeah.

No. The only reason he tried to reason with Stellar is because he loved her. When did he ever try to reason with any other character? He tried to reason with Athrun, when Athrun was trying to escape and avoid a fight, sure. I don't really think that should count, but I'd give you that one. Otherwise, I don't see talking to Stellar as anything about Orb's ideals. It just shows how Shinn was captivated and swayed by her. He even goes so far as to attack the Freedom, when Freedom is attempting to disable the Destroy.

I can see that we viewed a lot of these events differently, which I find interesting. From what you're saying, I can understand how Shinn would be a more likable character. The series still does too much to portray him in an almost villainish manner, though. From attacking Kira (and despite lamenting over the first time, doing it again!) to following orders without thought, to disobeying orders without thought (returning Stellar), it just reeks of a seemingly bad character. What really ices the cake is the fact that he killed the Orb general who not only holds the true ideals of Orb (which the series, at least, puts into our minds as the ultimate source of good), but who looked after Shinn in his time of need, and got him out of Orb. Shinn didn't know who he was killing, I know, but the cinematic portrayals put Shinn in a very, very bad light.

[Azure22]

They also do not play it up that Shinn wants revenge on Freedom for killing his family. Shinn just wants to take out Freedom because Freedom is powerful, and also because Freedom did kill Stellar. The revenge aspect was drawn from that.

Yeah, they didn't play it up, but I read it in newtype, and if you watch, I believe it was Freedom who fired, but with Calamity (coulda been Raider) firing right before it, facing an opposite camera angle than the one the viewer attributes with the direction the beam that killed Shinn's family came in.

It also bothers me how all of the characters attributed Heine's death to Kira.

I didn't say that Heine's death should be attributed to Kira's fault, I said he contributed to it. If I thought otherwise, I would say that Kira killed him, much simpler. Kira's presence on the battlefield arguably did little more than just elongate the combat time in those battles over the ocean. Yes, the fault is primarily on Stellar's shoulders, Stellar did kill him, and on Heine's own. But I'd give kira some responsibility.

Shinn blames Kira for the death of Heine (although not as much as Athrun), and also for the death of Stellar. He also treats Stellar as if she had done nothing wrong. Yet, it was really Stellar that killed Heine. It just seems like two wrongs: letting Stellar get off of blame free, and then placing what should be her blame on Kira (who arguably had the purest intentions, even).

Yeah, Stellar does bad stuff, but it's arguably not her fault. She's been put through an inhumane training program, been given drugs, and is having her head toyed with everytime she takes a nap, apparently. I view Shinn's reactions towards Stellar as being the same as if a brainwashed person went on trial. Sorta like how most of the nazi soldiers who participated in the death camps weren't penalized for war crimes (if I'm remembering correctly.) Except Stellar is actually more blameless than the people who were let off the hook in our own workld.

Blaming Kira again. Kira was off floating in the distance, and drifted into Stellar's view. Kira didn't suddenly get up in front of Shinn. He even held back and gave Shinn a chance. Is it Kira's fault that he was spotted, and that Stellar had such mental issues that she was driven into a panic by the mere sight of him? Are you going to blame Kira for then stepping in and trying to save what was left of the populace and the city by going after the Destroy?

No, I'm not gonna blame him for trying to step in and save the city. Here's what I am gonna blame him for: A lotta the stuff he did before that. He scares Stellar for his power, and how he seemingly killed Neo. He randomly pops in and makes the battles worse, when really, who knows how in might have gone, to borrow your word, cinematically, if Kira hadn't joined in half the battles he did? Come to think of it, why was he busy piloting a gundam while he could be out finding out for certain that it was Dullindal who wanted Lacus killed? Yeah, he had enough reason to be certain already, but then he shoulda been out there with Lacus trying to publicize the wrong doing... This just seems like common sense to me. I'm fairly certain that bust analyzation would prove Kira's Lacus to be the real one...

No. The only reason he tried to reason with Stellar is because he loved her.

Yeah, I'm not saying the reason he tried to reason with Stellar is because he's following Orb's ideas, I'm just commenting it could be a subconcsious factor. I'm really only trying to comparethe actions. For whatever reason, Shinn is doing the same thing Orb did before they were attacked by the Alliance: Trying to make diplomacy work. I'm just saying that maybe it's the subconscious former-Orb resident inside him who leads him to do this... ever. My main point was his action

So yeah, Shinn is definately put on the bad side in this story. I do, however, think that if people hadn't started hating him for hating on characters we like, he could have had some earnest character development (in the right direction), and the series would've been better... In my opinion. Who knows, he may not've killed the orb general... Was he named Takamikazuchi, or was that his ship? Meh.

On a slightly different note, I dunno, I just didn't like Kira in SEED Destiny... Because all his character development was basically in the first 13 episodes, and that was all it took. From there on out, pretty much, he just swoops in and owns everything, while being the usual infallible hero. His lack of any real personal conflict or confusion past just getting into the cockpit drove me nuts. Gundam is great, in my opinion, because of how it blurs the line between good and evil. Kira made that line much, much clearer than it needed to be. Yeah, he was good in GSEED, but he wasn't THAT good.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Azure22

Jeez, am I the only person here who really likes Shinn?

You people are saying that you don't like him 'cause he's still upset that his family died two years ago.

Not exactly. It's more like the manner in which he is expressing his grief after two years.

Let's face it, though: We didn't really see him moping before he started fighting again, or before he came into contact with people...........................

Well he wasn't completely screwed up by the tragedy but that doesn't really say much. As you mentioned below he'll revert to that self-pity stage of grief when certain external triggers are present. The bottom line is he still sleeps with his sister's cellphone hence it's clear that he either can't get over it or won't let it go by his own volition. Shinn's situation reminded me of Captain Sisko's own in the pilot episode of Star Trek: DS9. Perhaps what he really needed is an Orb experience.

[Kirouni]

Nah, I think Shinn is cool too. What pisses me off is when people say they don't like him because he always pissed off. 2 years, for what happened to his parents and his sister is nothing. Watching your family die isn't something you get over so quick... it's one of those things that may never go away. So can you really blame him? That cell phone is just like a picture to him. I highly doubt that at least HALF of the people that criticize him are fortunate enough to have never lost anybody really close to them.

[Azure22]

I have never watched Star Trek, so I don't know all that much about your analogy, Kiramuro, but keeping a token of remembrance sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Plus, he's a soldier... I may be wrong, but don't some soldiers keep important mementos close to them?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Kirouni

Nah, I think Shinn is cool too. What pisses me off is when people say they don't like him because he always pissed off. 2 years, for what happened to his parents and his sister is nothing. Watching your family die isn't something you get over so quick... it's one of those things that may never go away. So can you really blame him? That cell phone is just like a picture to him. I highly doubt that at least HALF of the people that criticize him are fortunate enough to have never lost anybody really close to them.

Yeah, and Athrun lost his mother and his father tried to kill him. If we wanted to go into the psychology of each character we could pull out a ton of screwed-up events that, in reality, would leave most people either incapacitated or very "screwed up" and may very well be worse than Shinn's. Shinn could have been a good character, but the way that he was portrayed was definitely not in a manner that would endear him to the hearts of many viewers. Since he was a main character, at least initially, I found that really strange. I don't know whether it was intentional, or if the series designers sort of lost touch with their audience.

[Azure22]

Yeah, I think that's the problem with SEED Destiny. He rubbed people the wrong way initially, and people never got over that, so they slowly stopped portraying him as a good guy until around episode 33, I'd say . And so much of the audience wanted to see the old characters make triumphant returns and still have big parts, when really, they didn't need to have that happen. Say, does anyone know at what point, as in, what episode, Fukuda started diverging from the original plan for SEED Destiny? 'Cause it definately happened early on.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I always thought that it was a fire from Raider (or whichever the blue one was) while engaged in a battle with Freedom and Justice. If it was Freedom, you do have a point and it does explain some of Shinn's hatred. As far as I can remember the series didn't clearly show that it was a shot from Freedom - I'll have to rewatch those sequences and get back to you on that.

FREEDOM indirectly kills Shinn's parents (This is shown in episode 1), but in the Shinn recap episode (ep 20 "Past") they change it to imply it was CALAMITY's blast of attrition that did it...All in an effort to wipe the blood from Kira's hands (which they have done multiple times in this series)...Obviously Shinn never had a chance to be a successful character, and I repeat no character in the history of literary works, from Aristotle and Shakesphere to Quinten Tarentino and Steven Spielberg, has there ever been an intended main character who has ever had the story completely taken away from them and their ability to drive the plot nullified...But rather than make another long post defending SHinn (which I have successfully done morso than any member on this entire board) I'd like to give someone else a chance...Azure22 seems to be a good candidate...

[Shinn_Kabuto]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

FREEDOM indirectly kills Shinn's parents (This is shown in episode 1), but in the Shinn recap episode (ep 20 "Past") they change it to imply it was CALAMITY's blast of attrition that did it...All in an effort to wipe the blood from Kira's hands (which they have done multiple times in this series)...Obviously Shinn never had a chance to be a successful character, and I repeat no character in the history of literary works, from Aristotle and Shakesphere to Quinten Tarentino and Steven Spielberg, has there ever been an intended main character who has ever had the story completely taken away from them and their ability to drive the plot nullified...But rather than make another long post defending SHinn (which I have successfully done morso than any member on this entire board) I'd like to give someone else a chance...Azure22 seems to be a good candidate...

I agree.

Ya know, someone said that Shinn is a human character. Kira sucked in GSD because he turned into a "god". Shinn turned into nothing but a villain w/ no reason at all.

If Shinn was given good character development....

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Kirouni

Nah, I think Shinn is cool too. What pisses me off is when people say they don't like him because he always pissed off. 2 years, for what happened to his parents and his sister is nothing. Watching your family die isn't something you get over so quick... it's one of those things that may never go away. So can you really blame him? That cell phone is just like a picture to him. I highly doubt that at least HALF of the people that criticize him are fortunate enough to have never lost anybody really close to them.

Um, I believe *all* of the main characters lost somebody close to them. Let's go down the list:

Goddess: Mother died of illness when she was still young, father assassinated. Yes, the Goddess's mother died of illness by this logic: if she was alive, we'd see the Goddess's mother with her. She isn't. And by anime/RPG cliches, all of the beautiful women die young, like when their children are still kids.

God: His best friend got Tolle'd.

Red knight: His best friend got Niccol'd. Mother killed senselessly, father went lunatic and died in the process before his eyes.

Better-off-as-a-soldier-tomboy: Her father blew himself to smithereens. An entire fleet of hers was incinerated before her eyes.

Murrue: Lost her bondage mistress, lost Mwu for a year.

Andy: Lost Aisha, one eye, one arm, and some of the functionality of one of his legs.


So by comparison, Shinn had absolutely no right whatsoever to keep bitching. But I guess you're doomed to failure when you're a fusion of Anakin Skywalker and Saucegay. Too much impatience, stupidity, and emo in one package that nobody short of the Goddess could undo. And no amount of strength can measure up to a pilot piloting a gundam imbued with Goddess Dust.