Abortion right or wrong

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Crimson Cloud

Well first of all, I think males shouldn't influence or comment anything on this matter in the first place, because they don't know the pain of the birth, so it isn't our place to say.

You don't need to feel the pain of child birth to understand abortion. The actual pain of birth is not even a common basis on why abortion should be legal or not, so I don't see why there should be any reason why a man can't have his say about abortion. Men's voices shouldn't be ignored as abortions can affect more than just the mothers life it can affect the fathers life as well.

[OutSmart]

this discussion is still alive? wow

first of all from what I saw that this has gone to 24 hours later since I've last been here:

"Well first of all, I think males shouldn't influence or comment anything on this matter in the first place, because they don't know the pain of the birth, so it isn't our place to say."

lol, seriously?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

hello everyone.. i guess i will join this "debate" here
First of all
im a male and i wanna say that
i do not agree with abortion and YES!! i do think male have a say in abortion

Ok. I'll repeat some of the points I have made in this thread...

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

okay..so Abortion is not right because of many reasons..and i assume many of you already know that..but you still think it should be Females decision for many reasons and i already knew them also.

No I don't. Care to explain? (People have different reasons for why, I don't know your reasons)

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

now i think Male should have the right to say.."i want the Baby" coz its his child too..its not just Females...

You do have the right to say you want the baby, does not mean she has to listen. A guy simply puts his seed in a woman, and waits till she is all ready to give birth 9 months later. Meanwhile a woman has to go through all these hormonal problems, wait months, possibly give up her current job due to the pregnancy, gets plump, ends up in a lot of pain, and eventually has to give the dreaded child birth that hurts a lot. This is all while the guy had some fun with sex and suffered nothing. I do not know what you think, but the woman has a lot more say on the matter than the guy, especially because it is HER body and NOT his.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

for those of you female who support abortion, well if you didnt want the baby..dont have sex in the first place.
i meant everything has a consequence, and abortion is just like "hit and run"
of course a murderer would have a better life if hes not in the prison
of course its better for a theif to not be charged by the police for whatever he has stolen, you have sex..you prepare for the consequence. "You're" the one took the risk and chances.
(and for the side note..if Male really did get a say to have the baby, then i guess the law should make The male to sign contracts of whatever is necessary)

No one is saying that abortion is the best solution, it is just an option that many really desire to have in case some mess up occurs. Safe sex is encouraged by both sides, and that is a common ground for us.

But if she does mess up, it is a private affair that affects herself, and her family. If they get an abortion, YOU are in no way affected or grieved. You do not even know who really gets an abortion outside the people you know. If you yourself are against abortion, fine, preach that to your family members and your future wife, so they do not go for it.

Your example of the thief is not in context, because it has grieved someone else in society.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

now... for the rape situations and the life and death situations are different.
just because of these situations ..that doesn't mean we have to give all the females to have the right to do abortion.
well i guess i still encourage the females who are in those situations to keep the baby, and i guess the government should really support those females if they decide to keep the baby.

Ah...

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

and lastly..Babes are babies.. i know we all have different beliefs.. is fetus a baby or just bunch of cells. or do babies have souls and what not.
but lets not forget that no matter what your beliefs are.. they(the babies) will grow up and live their lives with endless possibilities.
and abortion means to take away all that from them.
just because you didnt want to face the consequence. just because you made a "mistake"! it was your "fault"..and the baby has to suffer for it. great!

How does the baby suffer if it is not really conscious? And how do you know the baby is going to have endless possibilities? What if you know your child will have sever down syndrome or very weird physical deformities? What if you cannot possibly take care of the child and he/she ends up being put up for adoption? The baby is equally likely to have a bad life.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

i guess its not fair for woman to suffer to give birth.
but you really have to live with it..coz some ppl just born rich or poor. black, white, asian.
everyone learns to deal with life... and yes women. you did have a choice.
but you loss that choice once you decide to have sex.
just like you cant have sex by yourself.. you didnt have the baby all by yourself.
and the babys life is not your choice. sorry!

What difference does race make? Poverty? Last time I checked, society at least attempts to combat that.

How does the women lose her choice? All of a sudden she loses control of her own body and it becomes the property of society? By acknowledging the risks of sex, you also realize your possibilities after sex, like abortion. So they made a choice, and are given other choices if some unfortunate circumstance for the woman occurs.

And is it really a baby's life? Your definition of where life begins is completely different from others, I would think. For many it is the point of viability, somewhere at the end of the second trimester.

Also, a man does not contribute anything to the creation of a human being beyond the act of sex. And if it is the sperm you are so worried about, you must also be against masturbation.

[LeoXiao]

It all depends on where you think the life begins. i think it starts when conception occurs but I understand that other people have different definitions.

You do have the right to say you want the baby, does not mean she has to listen. A guy simply puts his seed in a woman, and waits till she is all ready to give birth 9 months later. Meanwhile a woman has to go through all these hormonal problems, wait months, possibly give up her current job due to the pregnancy, gets plump, ends up in a lot of pain, and eventually has to give the dreaded child birth that hurts a lot. This is all while the guy had some fun with sex and suffered nothing. I do not know what you think, but the woman has a lot more say on the matter than the guy, especially because it is HER body and NOT his.

I find this hilarious. Who let him have sex with her?

[Shay]

There is no right or wrong answer to this question, only opinions.

There are just too many factors to consider and too many individual cases or cause.

It is simply one of the many things in life, which whether we like it or not we have no control over. It has always been and always will be.

My only opinion is that it shouldn't be so easy.

[kyon.haruhi.suzumiya]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

How does the women lose her choice? All of a sudden she loses control of her own body and it becomes the property of society? By acknowledging the risks of sex, you also realize your possibilities after sex, like abortion. So they made a choice, and are given other choices if some unfortunate circumstance for the woman occurs.

And is it really a baby's life? Your definition of where life begins is completely different from others, I would think. For many it is the point of viability, somewhere at the end of the second trimester.

Well. My definition of life begins at inception. But still, as a social worker, I only advise against abortion, I don't force them. My SOP is to brief the couple on what abortion is like. Usually by the video I posted some time back. That's all. Other than that, it is the couple's own choice. I don't see why we have to force our will on others.

[-RK-]

Its not wrong. Dont think for one second it is.

You do have the right to say you want the baby, does not mean she has to listen. A guy simply puts his seed in a woman, and waits till she is all ready to give birth 9 months later. Meanwhile a woman has to go through all these hormonal problems, wait months, possibly give up her current job due to the pregnancy, gets plump, ends up in a lot of pain, and eventually has to give the dreaded child birth that hurts a lot. This is all while the guy had some fun with sex and suffered nothing. I do not know what you think, but the woman has a lot more say on the matter than the guy, especially because it is HER body and NOT his.

It's people like this who I believe should not be allowed to concieve because they feel the need to put blame on someone or make excuses for something. As LeoXiao said, this is hilarious.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by -RK-

Its not wrong. Dont think for one second it is.



It's people like this who I believe should not be allowed to concieve because they feel the need to put blame on someone or make excuses for something. As LeoXiao said, this is hilarious.

Please don't make a straw man out of my argument, I never said anything about blame. All I said was the woman is entitled to have more say than the man.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

I find this hilarious. Who let him have sex with her?

What difference does it make?

[4F0ur]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You do have the right to say you want the baby, does not mean she has to listen. A guy simply puts his seed in a woman, and waits till bshe is all ready to give birth 9 months later. Meanwhile a woman has to go through all these hormonal problems, wait months, possibly give up her current job due to the pregnancy, gets plump, ends up in a lot of pain, and eventually has to give the dreaded child birth that hurts a lot. This is all while the guy had some fun with sex and suffered nothing. I do not know what you think, but the woman has a lot more say on the matter than the guy, especially because it is HER body and NOT his.

yes she has to listen..coz its not just her baby. the law is messed up. coz no matter how sincerely the guy wants the baby, he cant. its all up the the female
its not fair to guys.
and her the fact that she has to suffer to give birth. I'm pretty sure all females are aware of that. and still wanted to have sex.
so u said abortion is not the best solution. let me give you a best solution.
why dont females have sex when you are ready to have baby?

No one is saying that abortion is the best solution, it is just an option that many really desire to have in case some mess up occurs. Safe sex is encouraged by both sides, and that is a common ground for us.

But if she does mess up, it is a private affair that affects herself, and her family. If they get an abortion, YOU are in no way affected or grieved. You do not even know who really gets an abortion outside the people you know. If you yourself are against abortion, fine, preach that to your family members and your future wife, so they do not go for it.

the risk is unavoidable no matter how much protection she uses. and yes! everyone knows it and still have sex..in hope of not getting a baby.
and yes..it will affect the family..
well..maybe the females should take responsibilities of her actions.

Your example of the thief is not in context, because it has grieved someone else in society.

Abortion right to only female will grieve the male when he wants the baby
and the baby him/herself's future



Ah...

How does the baby suffer if it is not really conscious?

yes Baby do feel pains when certain part of the brain is developed they just forget about it.

And how do you know the baby is going to have endless possibilities?
What if you know your child will have sever down syndrome or very weird physical deformities? What if you cannot possibly take care of the child and he/she ends up being put up for adoption? The baby is equally likely to have a bad life.

my point exactly
you dont know whats gonna happen to the baby.. so you dont have right to decide whats going to happen to the Baby.

What difference does race make? Poverty? Last time I checked, society at least attempts to combat that.

will it does make difference.. black people were born slaves for many centuries..
and even now they are being discriminated somehow.
my point is..if you were born in poverty. you learn to deal with it.
if you were born black you learn to deal with it.
why cant some of you females deal with your own issues??
why do some of your females have to kill baby instead of be more responsible?

How does the women lose her choice? All of a sudden she loses control of her own body and it becomes the property of society? By acknowledging the risks of sex, you also realize your possibilities after sex, like abortion. So they made a choice, and are given other choices if some unfortunate circumstance for the woman occurs.

thats why abortion should not be allowed to women.
because of its nature = killing a baby and because of certain irresponsible females.

And is it really a baby's life? Your definition of where life begins is completely different from others, I would think. For many it is the point of viability, somewhere at the end of the second trimester.

that is just unbelievable....if you leave the baby alone..will the baby have a life?
and if you stop that from happening , then what could it be other than murder.

Also, a man does not contribute anything to the creation of a human being beyond the act of sex. And if it is the sperm you are so worried about, you must also be against masturbation.

sperm itself doesnt become a baby... now at this point..your arguments are just rock bottom.
its not the sperm or our cells that i personal concerned about..
if some woman gets my baby.. i think about his/her life. and what i could have done to him/her if the baby was alive. and no! it doesnt matter how hard the womens situation is... if shes not gonna die for giving birth to the baby. then she does not have the right to take away the possibilities of a life from me.

sure maybe the laws right now..doesnt really support my opinion..
but i know that many good hearted people out there have the same exact vision as me. and i know this will happen for the good of all unborn babies.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

yes she has to listen..coz its not just her baby. the law is messed up. coz no matter how sincerely the guy wants the baby, he cant. its all up the the female
its not fair to guys.

If a guy wants to have a baby, he'd better find a female who wants to have a baby with him. Merely hoping for an accident is messed up.

and her the fact that she has to suffer to give birth. I'm pretty sure all females are aware of that. and still wanted to have sex.
so u said abortion is not the best solution. let me give you a best solution.
why dont females have sex when you are ready to have baby?

For the same reasons males don't wait either.

the risk is unavoidable no matter how much protection she uses. and yes! everyone knows it and still have sex..in hope of not getting a baby.
and yes..it will affect the family..
well..maybe the females should take responsibilities of her actions.

Abortion is more responsible than bringing into the world a baby you're not ready, financially or emotionally, to provide for. You see, responsibility isn't about going with the flow or with whatever 4F0ur wants. It's about making reasoned choices and standing by the consequences. Abortion is just as much a "consequence" as giving birth. The important thing is to think and to choose. Not to make a choice some strangers will approve of.

Abortion right to only female will grieve the male when he wants the baby
and the baby him/herself's future

Should have thought of that before sticking it in someone who didn't want a baby. To expect someone to give up as much as having an undesired child would imply just for the sake of one night's lust is unreasonable.

Ah...




yes Baby do feel pains when certain part of the brain is developed they just forget about it.

What do you know? For that matter, what about embryos?

my point exactly
you dont know whats gonna happen to the baby.. so you dont have right to decide whats going to happen to the Baby.

OK, for starters, I don't think anyone in support of abortion thinks of those as "babies". That's a loaded word best applied to human beings shortly after they're born. Not before.

Also, a woman damn well has the right to choose what's going to happen to her.

will it does make difference.. black people were born slaves for many centuries..
and even now they are being discriminated somehow.
my point is..if you were born in poverty. you learn to deal with it.
if you were born black you learn to deal with it.
why cant some of you females deal with your own issues??
why do some of your females have to kill baby instead of be more responsible?

As I said, abortion is as responsible as anything. How they came to a decision is what matters, not whether you, 4F0ur, agree or not.

thats why abortion should not be allowed to women.
because of its nature = killing a baby and because of certain irresponsible females.

And irresponsible males.

It's also solving a problem before it happens, not killing a baby.

that is just unbelievable....if you leave the baby alone..will the baby have a life?
and if you stop that from happening , then what could it be other than murder.

Who cares what "could" happen? The point is, it didn't happen.

sperm itself doesnt become a baby... now at this point..your arguments are just rock bottom.
its not the sperm or our cells that i personal concerned about..

Yes, but who cares what you're personally caring about? Saying a spermatozoid is a baby in potentia is the same as saying an embryo is a baby in potentia, but taken a short step further.

if some woman gets my baby.. i think about his/her life. and what i could have done to him/her if the baby was alive. and no! it doesnt matter how hard the womens situation is... if shes not gonna die for giving birth to the baby. then she does not have the right to take away the possibilities of a life from me.

Then, as I said, I advise you not to sleep with any woman unless they're ready to bear your children. Because sleeping with them does not give you any right over their bodies.

sure maybe the laws right now..doesnt really support my opinion..
but i know that many good hearted people out there have the same exact vision as me.

That women's bodies don't belong to them? That clumps of undifferentiated cells are babies? Sure, plenty of people think that. That doesn't make them right.

and i know this will happen for the good of all unborn babies.

Being born and thrown at the adoption system or being resented their whole childhood? Oh joy.

[4F0ur]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If a guy wants to have a baby, he'd better find a female who wants to have a baby with him. Merely hoping for an accident is messed up.

lol... you need to think alittle bit before talking.
this isnt the issue here
what im saying here is that just because the baby's inside females body
doesnt mean she has the full authority to do whatever she wants with it.
its should be 50/50
maybe if you wanna keep on argue about this.. stay to that..instead of just rambling about other things.

For the same reasons males don't wait either.

some males do, not everyones the same
but the irresponsible ones shold learn to be a better person

Abortion is more responsible than bringing into the world a baby you're not ready, financially or emotionally, to provide for. You see, responsibility isn't about going with the flow or with whatever 4F0ur wants. It's about making reasoned choices and standing by the consequences. Abortion is just as much a "consequence" as giving birth. The important thing is to think and to choose. Not to make a choice some strangers will approve of.

thats what you think.. your not giving a baby's chance to decide...well you might say "fetus cant think." you still dont have the right to kill it.
and abortion is an escape, escape from being a mom, a woman who once had a baby,whatever that comes along..
and abortion is a choice its not a consequence.

Should have thought of that before sticking it in someone who didn't want a baby. To expect someone to give up as much as having an undesired child would imply just for the sake of one night's lust is unreasonable.

doesnt matter, what. you still have someone else's baby. you dont have full authority to kill the baby.

What do you know? For that matter, what about embryos?

what to the first part. to second question. what i originally meant by suffering was as a consequence. 'why do babys have to take consequence to womens mistake'

OK, for starters, I don't think anyone in support of abortion thinks of those as "babies". That's a loaded word best applied to human beings shortly after they're born. Not before.

or they dont want to think they are babies, Face the fact!
those fetuses will live and grow up and have lives.
Abortions will stop that from happenning
yes i said it from my last post, and u dodge the question! lol

Also, a woman damn well has the right to choose what's going to happen to her.

as long as she dont take away other ppl's right
which in this case is Male's right to keep the baby
and baby's right to live.
if you dont wanna call those babys and they dont have lives or anything like that
please answer this.,
what do you call it when you stop something to live? when that thing will become a human being.
if you call it abortion, then abortion is murder :O lol

As I said, abortion is as responsible as anything. How they came to a decision is what matters, not whether you, 4F0ur, agree or not.

a decision to cost other ppls life.
its not a responsible act because with the knowledge of possible risk to have baby
Women Choose! to have sex. (please dont go off topic again and bring males argument in)
responsible way would be face the consequence
and not CHOOSE abortion

And irresponsible males.

like i just said dont go off topic, i dont wanna talk about other stuffs here,,its just too much to cover
im not saying males are right or wrong
im just saying that we Males dont have the same rights to keep the baby, and i think its wrong coz its not like women didnt have the choice to avoid the baby situation..

It's also solving a problem before it happens, not killing a baby.

or just solving your own problem by killing a baby. (you still didnt directly respond to my point here yet, and i hope u know what im talking about)

Who cares what "could" happen? The point is, it didn't happen.

but it will happen and could be in many different way.
the point is not it didnt happen, the point is abortion forces it to never happen.

Yes, but who cares what you're personally caring about? Saying a spermatozoid is a baby in potentia is the same as saying an embryo is a baby in potentia, but taken a short step further.

well, i dont care if you care or not..my point is if a Dad wants the baby for whatever the reason, equal rights as Mom! (can you please try to understand my points a little bit clearer? coz i dont feel like explaining myself twice. and if you think my points are too hard to understand, then dont reply lol.)

Then, as I said, I advise you not to sleep with any woman unless they're ready to bear your children. Because sleeping with them does not give you any right over their bodies.

this isnt just my personal issue, and i dont sleep with any woman.
but just like if you have something that belongs to me, then i can have police to go search your properties, and take hold of your properties until i find it.(when im sure that you have it ofcourse)
when a woman has my baby, then the decision to have the abortion isnt her choice anymore. (and ofcourse because she knew that it was the risk and took it)

That women's bodies don't belong to them? That clumps of undifferentbated cells are babies? Sure, plenty of people think that. That doesn't make them right.

well this is the 4th time you said the fetus arent human and killing them is okay.
please answer my question Directly under the my 7th quote response to you

Being born and thrown at the adoption system or being resented their whole childhood? Oh joy.

wherever the baby ends up, unless the Mom knew the baby's gonna die or something like that, she doesnt have the right to kill the baby.
and i know alot of friends whom are being adopted to america, they are living really happy lives.

yes! feel guilty for abortions, just because you change your way of thinking
doesnt change the Facts thats its stopping human lives.

[redshi]

it's just not right use the pills!are you do it

[Irenicus]

Oh look at that big long argument over there... You know, that's why Vexx said to read the thread before. I know it's a big, long scary thread, but when people come in and give their pretty little two cents on abortion, they always end up repeating what was already said before, which was already argued against, and the process repeats itself all over again. It's kind of annoying when you hope may be someone would have something new to say and then I see a repeat.

Looks like my recommendation to google the issue set in the very first page is ignored. It helps, you know, if one knows the common arguments and counterarguments beforehand so as to save oneself from echoing said arguments and be promptly, exhaustedly, countered, ad nauseam.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

lol... you need to think alittle bit before talking.
this isnt the issue here
what im saying here is that just because the baby's inside females body
doesnt mean she has the full authority to do whatever she wants with it.
its should be 50/50
maybe if you wanna keep on argue about this.. stay to that..instead of just rambling about other things.

This is like the person who owns 10% of a company telling the man who owns 70% of a company, what to do. It is not 50/50, the woman has far more to lose than the male.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

some males do, not everyones the same
but the irresponsible ones learn to be a better person

Doesn't matter either way.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

thats what you think.. your not giving a baby's chance to decide...
and abortion is an escape, escape from being a mom, a woman who once had a baby,whatever that comes along..
and abortion is a choice its not a consequence.

A fetus cannot think, therefore it has no voice in the discussion. And abortion is an escape, that's the point... You don't want to be stuck as a mother when you do not desire to be one!

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

doesnt matter, what. you still have someone else's baby. you dont have full authority to kill the baby.

what to the first part. to second question. what i originally meant by suffering was as a consequence. 'why do babys have to take consequence to womens mistake'

The mistake can be letting the baby be born in a harsh life.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

or they dont want to think they are babies, Face the fact!
those fetuses will live and grow up and have lives.
Abortions will stop that from happenning
yes i said it from my last post, and u dodge the question! lol

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

as long as she dont take away other ppl's right
which in this case is Male's right to keep the baby
and baby's right to live.
if you dont wanna call those babys and they dont have lives or anything like that
please answer this.,
what do you call it when you stop something to live? when that thing will become a human being.
if you call it abortion, then abortion is murder :O lol

Please actually tell me why the father has a 50/50 chance. I explained why it isn't. You have done nothing to tell me otherwise. And there is a hole in your logic. A fetus is not considered living by many people, so one cannot actually stop it from living. Killing something means to take away life, but if it does not have life, it cannot be killed. Maybe under your definition of human life your statement can be true, but you still do not realize that your opinion is not shared by everyone.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

a decision to cost other ppls life.
its not a responsible act because with the knowledge of possible risk to have baby
Women Choose! to have sex. (please dont go off topic again and bring males argument in)

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

like i just said dont go off topic, i dont wanna talk about other stuffs here,,its just too much to cover
im not saying males are right or wrong
im just saying that we Males dont have the same rights to keep the baby, and i think its wrong coz its not like women didnt have the choice to avoid the baby situation..

I think you misunderstand something about many pro-choice people. First, many of them do not consider abortion a simple choice. It's not like they are saying that they desire people to go around having unprotected sex and getting 10+ abortions as if it was an easy decision. Why do we support having protected sex in the first place if we thought abortion was an easy solution for birth control?

What most people support is the choice; do they want to bring a child in this world or not? If no, then it is better to get one, but they need to learn from their mistakes and use protection next time.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

or just solving a problem by killing a baby. (you still didnt directly respond to my point here yet, and i hope u know what im talking about)

And you haven't responded sufficiently to the point that not everyone considers it the murder of a human being.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

but it will happen and could be in many different way.
the point is not it didnt happen, the point is abortion forces it to never happen.

Are you against protected sex? Those people also force it not to happen...

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

well, i dont care if you care or not..my point is if a Dad wants the baby for whatever the reason, equal rights as Mom! (can you please try to understand my points a little bit clearer? coz i dont feel like explaining myself twice. and if you think my points are too hard to understand, then dont reply lol.)

Can you understand my points a little? And please stop being condescending with your statements.

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

this isnt just my personal issue, and i dont sleep with any woman.
but just like if you have something that belongs to me, then i can have police to go search your properties, and take hold of your properties until i find it.(when im sure that you have it ofcourse)
when a woman has my baby, then the decision to have the abortion isnt her choice anymore. (and ofcourse because she knew that it was the risk and took it)

And as I said, your opinion is inconsequential to the woman who has more ownership of the fetus/embryo, which is actually connected to her body (Something you cannot take claim to).

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

well this is the 4th time you said the fetus arent human and killing them is okay.
please answer my question Directly under the my 6th quote response

And what time is this it for you that you have yet to really understand the point that not everyone considers a fetus a human?

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

wherever the baby ends up, unless the Mom knew the baby's gonna die or something like that, she doesnt have the right to kill the baby.
and i know alot of friends whom are being adopted to america, they are living really happy lives.

yes! feel guilty for abortions, just because you change your way of thinking
doesnt change the Facts thats its stopping human lives.

Please see my earlier points...

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Looks like my recommendation to google the issue set in the very first page is ignored. It helps, you know, if one knows the common arguments and counterarguments beforehand so as to save oneself from echoing said arguments and be promptly, exhaustedly, countered, ad nauseam.

Yeah, this is the respectful thing to do. However, I am bored so...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

lol... you need to think alittle bit before talking.
this isnt the issue here
what im saying here is that just because the baby's inside females body
doesnt mean she has the full authority to do whatever she wants with it.
its should be 50/50
maybe if you wanna keep on argue about this.. stay to that..instead of just rambling about other things...

I am tired of repeating myself, so I will simply say this: no one has the right to occupy/use another's body. So, the mother has full authority, and the fetus does not. Even if you argue that a fetus has a "right to life" it does not have the "right to its mother's life", so abortion is still morally justifiable.

I'm sure I can go on, and pck apart your post, but Reckoner already did (more or less), and Irenicus is correct that there is no point to constantly repeating ourselves.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Somehow, I don't support abortion, I seem to equate it to murder. I always thought adoption was the next best alternative other than raising the baby.

Of course, there may be valid reasons behind wanting an abortion, but I usually try to advise people who consult me for advice to put up the baby for adoption, as there are many people who want a baby, but can't conceive.

I feel that abortion should not be an alternative to adoption. I always felt adoption was a double-bonus - you get to save a life (in fact, you created it, in a way) and you get to give a gift to others (OK, I admit, I do rewrap Xmas gifts to give away at social functions!)

So, I guess I made my stance clear, NO to abortion, YES to adoption.

And yes, protect yourself! After all protection, if applied properly, is usually enoguh to avoid a pregnancy. Besides, I think that abstinence might be another way to avoid unforseen "accidents".

[4F0ur]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This is like the person who owns 10% of a company telling the man who owns 70% of a company, what to do. It is not 50/50, the woman has far more to lose than the male.



Doesn't matter either way.



A fetus cannot think, therefore it has no voice in the discussion. And abortion is an escape, that's the point... You don't want to be stuck as a mother when you do not desire to be one!



The mistake can be letting the baby be born in a harsh life.






Please actually tell me why the father has a 50/50 chance. I explained why it isn't. You have done nothing to tell me otherwise. And there is a hole in your logic. A fetus is not considered living by many people, so one cannot actually stop it from living. Killing something means to take away life, but if it does not have life, it cannot be killed. Maybe under your definition of human life your statement can be true, but you still do not realize that your opinion is not shared by everyone.






I think you misunderstand something about many pro-choice people. First, many of them do not consider abortion a simple choice. It's not like they are saying that they desire people to go around having unprotected sex and getting 10+ abortions as if it was an easy decision. Why do we support having protected sex in the first place if we thought abortion was an easy solution for birth control?

What most people support is the choice; do they want to bring a child in this world or not? If no, then it is better to get one, but they need to learn from their mistakes and use protection next time.



And you haven't responded sufficiently to the point that not everyone considers it the murder of a human being.



Are you against protected sex? Those people also force it not to happen...



Can you understand my points a little? And please stop being condescending with your statements.



And as I said, your opinion is inconsequential to the woman who has more ownership of the fetus/embryo, which is actually connected to her body (Something you cannot take claim to).



And what time is this it for you that you have yet to really understand the point that not everyone considers a fetus a human?



Please see my earlier points...



Yeah, this is the respectful thing to do. However, I am bored so...

okay i dont wanna waste time talking to you any more than this point
well i guess....i think this is the key point there other things are just follow ups

yes not everyone consider the fetus is a living thing.

but is it a living thing? well we call bacterias living organism. so ...
well i guess u mean are they human.... well, a normal person would consider it a human, because you dont really use the Word fetus in our real lifes,
you dont see a pregnant mom say i got a fetus in my belly
even for a woman who have gone through many abortions wouldnt say that lol.
only when scientifically we use the word fetus or in this case you want to make yourself feel better by killing it

okay. so down to the core, what should we consider a fetus is.
Well u only said that you dont think its a human, then what is it?

i said we call it human, or what else do we categorize it?

but whatever u believe... you cant change the fact that it will become a person and it has a future. and thats life (what else do u call this?)

it doesnt matter what you want to think, that facts not going to change.

Secondly: 50/50 decision (or equal right). for males to have the baby born
because again its hes baby
females dont want baby then dont have sex. go get a job, learn to be more responsible

Guys we dont need this type of responsibility coz we dont give birth, we plant birth
so our responsibility is to take care of our baby.

but anyways your saying females should have more rights on this matter because the babys in their body and all the pain and time stuffs that are goiing on.

well i guess thats what happens when u give births. i meant are you the only female going through all that?? what makes it right to take away others future. (and dont give me you dont consider fetus a human Bull craps. your just avoiding the point. ---->Fetus has future)

please thank me for simplifying this argument for you.
lol...

Originally Posted by james0246

I am tired of repeating myself, so I will simply say this: no one has the right to occupy/use another's body. So, the mother has full authority, and the fetus does not. Even if you argue that a fetus has a "right to life" it does not have the "right to its mother's life", so abortion is still morally justifiable.

I'm sure I can go on, and pck apart your post, but Reckoner already did (more or less), and Irenicus is correct that there is no point to constantly repeating ourselves.

the fetus didnt have a choice, females did have a choice
so whos to blame? The Gambler! lol who told you to join the poker game if you knew you sucked? who told you to play the game if you cant handle the consequences?
so once your broke, you can sell your house which is co owned with your spouse?

and you said you are repeating yourself... but i dont see why you had to do that. your points not that strong, unlike the other guys i was talking to lol.
i meant you dont have to repeat. im not forcing you lol.
if you dont talk about what i just talked about here.. about the whos to blame thing from last paragraph then i wont wast time talking you.

[Wervy]

Originally Posted by ShimatheKat

So, I guess I made my stance clear, NO to abortion, YES to adoption.

And yes, protect yourself! After all protection, if applied properly, is usually enoguh to avoid a pregnancy. Besides, I think that abstinence might be another way to avoid unforseen "accidents".

Even though I feel strongly enough to be rude about this I wont... oh screw it, crackpot views shouldnt be treated with respect.

I mean seriously, murder? (with color! geeze, wtf) Its pretty easy to be self righteous and toss around words like "murder" when talking about this, but its pretty obvious it isnt and if you think it is your just retarded. If it was murder you wouldnt be able to have it done in almost every state legaly. I mean most HMOs even cover it. Calling it murder is a weak and somewhat pathetic way to oversimplify the issue.

Expecting EVERY woman who gets knocked up to have to carry a child and then give it up for adoption is just a fantasy. I am sure some may not have a problem, but most will. I mean this may be hard to grasp, but when someone has an abortion they have a good reason. Trying to overlay your views you gained from your life on someone else, and to try and tell them how to make a huge decision like this is wrong. Its pompous and shows a lack of respect for others, and in a situation where someone is getting an abotion would be horrible. The last thing someone needs at that time is some arm chair christian preaching their selective morals about someones elses life. I mean seriously, read the bible instead of just holding it and wavining it around.

I really wish all the god nuts would just mind their own busness. I am sure if they were raped by some big sweaty (non white, gasp) man they would be first in line to have it vacumed out of them.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Wervy

Even though I feel strongly enough to be rude about this I wont... oh screw it, crackpot views shouldnt be treated with respect.

I mean seriously, murder? (with color! geeze, wtf) Its pretty easy to be self righteous and toss around words like "murder" when talking about this, but its pretty obvious it isnt and if you think it is your just retarded. If it was murder you wouldnt be able to have it done in almost every state legaly. I mean most HMOs even cover it. Calling it murder is a weak and somewhat pathetic way to oversimplify the issue.

^^ Well, it is, you can keep on hiding from the fact. Now, the thing is, ADOPTION has been given a rather bad image because of cases in hospitals where babies are stolen from the mother and sold off (then they tell the mother that it was a miscarriage). This causes a bad image to swirl around the idea of ADOPTION. THe reason why ABORTION is openly viewed as OK is because not everybody knows what it involves, I have personally encountered teen pregnancy cases that go for abortion, it doesn't solve the problem, the mother is bogged down by guilt. In fact, medical science does prove abortion = murder of humans.

If you don't believe the above, wait till you see THIS video. This shows you the complete procedure on abortion.

Being a social worker, we hae to make sure that we make every life count. That's why I prefer ADOPTION against ABORTION.

Expecting EVERY woman who gets knocked up to have to carry a child and then give it up for adoption is just a fantasy. I am sure some may not have a problem, but most will. I mean this may be hard to grasp, but when someone has an abortion they have a good reason. Trying to overlay your views you gained from your life on someone else, and to try and tell them how to make a huge decision like this is wrong.

Then, whose fault is it to get "knocked up"? If it's a rape case/medical problem for either baby or mother, that's when I FULLY APPROVE of abortion. But as far as anyone in my social work group knows (and almost all the SWGs across the country) most abortion cases are due to wild parties gone wrong! In the first place, one should be more careful when you go to these kinds of kinky parties. And avoid entering a room alone with a member of the opposite sex.

The abstinence movement is spreading a good message, kudos to them. I think that everyone, male or female should be more cautious. Especially in Asian societies. [Esp. Japan and Korea] Abortion is frowned upon in Confucian societies and for good reason.

Besides, abortion may leave the mother at risk of infecting her uterus, and she may never be able to conceive again.

Its pompous and shows a lack of respect for others, and in a situation where someone is getting an abotion would be horrible. The last thing someone needs at that time is some arm chair christian preaching their selective morals about someones elses life. I mean seriously, read the bible instead of just holding it and wavining it around.

Even if I'm not a Christian, I would be saying the same. I was only Christian when I entered college. Before that however, I already had gone thru sex-ed lessons (read: Biology lessons, with a focus on sex-ed) and I know abortion is not pleasant. Those of you who think "oh, abortion is easy and isn't a big deal", I'm sorry, but do you know of a real-life case close to you? I do, they're my high school students. Do you know what abortion really is? I have, I've seen an abortion take place LIVE with my own two (wait, my glasses make that 4) eyes. It is very depressing, and hurts anyone who sees it. Once you see an abortion LIVE you'll never see abortion the same again. I'm forced to see it many times because, these students may not have a parent to accompany them, so I have to take over as guardian.

I really wish all the god nuts would just mind their own busness. I am sure if they were raped by some big sweaty (non white, gasp) man they would be first in line to have it vacumed out of them.

I make my point again. If it's a rape case/medical problem for either baby or mother, that's when I FULLY APPROVE of abortion. Otherwise, no.

[Ascaloth]

Why the hell do I have to go through all this bull**** again?

Originally Posted by 4F0ur

lol... you need to think alittle bit before talking.
this isnt the issue here
what im saying here is that just because the baby's inside females body
doesnt mean she has the full authority to do whatever she wants with it.
its should be 50/50
maybe if you wanna keep on argue about this.. stay to that..instead of just rambling about other things.

Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii. On what grounds does a fetus deserve a 50% say in its fate?

some males do, not everyones the same
but the irresponsible ones shold learn to be a better person

Ignoratio elenchi. What does the man's responsibility in the matter have to do with whether a woman should go through with an abortion?

thats what you think.. your not giving a baby's chance to decide...well you might say "fetus cant think." you still dont have the right to kill it.
and abortion is an escape, escape from being a mom, a woman who once had a baby,whatever that comes along..
and abortion is a choice its not a consequence.

Proof by Assertion. How does your repeatedly stating that other people do not have the right to "kill the fetus" make it a fact?

doesnt matter, what. you still have someone else's baby. you dont have full authority to kill the baby.

This is merely your ignoratio elenchi going onto Wishful Thinking.

what to the first part. to second question. what i originally meant by suffering was as a consequence. 'why do babys have to take consequence to womens mistake'

This is merely a Plurium Interrogationum arising from your earlier Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii. Answering your question here would implicitly imply an acceptance on the answerer's part that a fetus is equivalent to a human baby with attendent human rights, a presupposition which not everyone has been convinced to accept.

or they dont want to think they are babies, Face the fact!
those fetuses will live and grow up and have lives.
Abortions will stop that from happenning
yes i said it from my last post, and u dodge the question! lol

Bulverism leading to an Appeal to Ridicule. How is other people believing that fetuses are not equivalent to full human beings holding a wrong and ridiculous opinion simply because it is your opinion that they are?

as long as she dont take away other ppl's right
which in this case is Male's right to keep the baby
and baby's right to live.
if you dont wanna call those babys and they dont have lives or anything like that
please answer this.,
what do you call it when you stop something to live? when that thing will become a human being.
if you call it abortion, then abortion is murder :O lol

Ignoratio elenchi. How does a fetus's potential to develop into a human being make it equivalent to a full human being?

a decision to cost other ppls life.
its not a responsible act because with the knowledge of possible risk to have baby
Women Choose! to have sex. (please dont go off topic again and bring males argument in)
responsible way would be face the consequence
and not CHOOSE abortion

Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii. How is an abortion equivalent to murder? How is a woman making a choice to have an abortion a shirking of a responsibility which not everyone agrees she holds?

or just solving your own problem by killing a baby. (you still didnt directly respond to my point here yet, and i hope u know what im talking about)

Argumentum ad consequentiam arising from the earlier Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii. How does the prospect of abortion having a negative consequence in your opinion make it an alternative not to be considered? For that matter, how is the fetus equivalent to a human being?

well, i dont care if you care or not..my point is if a Dad wants the baby for whatever the reason, equal rights as Mom! (can you please try to understand my points a little bit clearer? coz i dont feel like explaining myself twice. and if you think my points are too hard to understand, then dont reply lol.)

Argumentum ad ignorantium. Why should a man have equal say in a woman's decision to go through with an abortion just because you personally desire that it be so?

this isnt just my personal issue, and i dont sleep with any woman.
but just like if you have something that belongs to me, then i can have police to go search your properties, and take hold of your properties until i find it.(when im sure that you have it ofcourse)
when a woman has my baby, then the decision to have the abortion isnt her choice anymore. (and ofcourse because she knew that it was the risk and took it)

Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii. Why is a fetus in a woman's womb the "property" of a man simply because the latter contributed genetic material to it?

wherever the baby ends up, unless the Mom knew the baby's gonna die or something like that, she doesnt have the right to kill the baby.
and i know alot of friends whom are being adopted to america, they are living really happy lives.

I'm sick of pointing out the Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii you're basing the entirety of your argument on at this point, so I'll point out your
ignoratio elenchi here instead. What do adoptees living perfectly happy lives have to do with the debate on abortion?

yes! feel guilty for abortions, just because you change your way of thinking
doesnt change the Facts thats its stopping human lives.

Proof by Assertion. How does your stating that abortion is equivalent to the termination of human lives true just because you keep saying so?

I fear this is going to be about as pointless as the last 29 pages of back-and-forth debating was.....