2012-02-09, 08:52
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Link #381 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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The manga appears to show George (a hand in a black shirt sleeve and white jacked) locking the shed using a key without a tag, then handing Gohda a key with a tag. I couldn't find any specific description of the key before it was handed to Gohda in the VN. (Which annoys me. One question I've asked is how the key got there. In Ep 1, Kanon is the last person mentioned as using the shed on Oct 4. Gohda wouldn't have the key, as he's excused from non-cooking duties around a conference. Kumasawa probably wouldn't have the key; shed work generally involves heavy lifting. There's no mention of the key already being there, or of them going to the mansion to retrieve it.)
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2012-02-09, 09:11
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Link #382 | |
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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I do not doubt your, or anyone else's thinking, but I do think there are (and know) many people who didn't really care about the mystery and just enjoyed the ride while hoping to see who the culprit is eventually, and ended up disappointed and hated Umineko for not satsifying their curiosity. Being dissatisfied about the truth of Prime remaining in the shadows is your right, after all. I, personally, do not see anything unethical about it. But I suppose that's because I saw EP8 completely as fantasy, as mystery was over for me by EP7. Let me put it this way. Rosa didn't love Maria, and everyone knows that. But nothing of the sort is written in Maria's diary. In fact, if a hundred people read it, they'd come to the conclusion that Maria was a pitiful child and feel sorry for her. But Maria thought she was happy, thus she used magic to create happiness that didn't exist. Is that sad? Is it deluding herself? Nothing stops anyone from thinking it like that, but as Maria herself declares, she was happy. Would it be ethical to point out to Maria that all of this is a delusion and force her to face up to the cruel reality? I think that's the question that is being posed on us. Of course, the Maria's Diary analogy is only a metaphor to be easier for me to convey my point here. After October 5th, everything of Rokenjima was closed up in a Cat Box. Which means nobody can ever tell what happened to them. But the interpretation that Beatrice opened the door to the Golden Land and took them there cannot be denied by anyone just thanks to that. Of course, we all know that's a lie. But it's the truth for all the Fantasy Creatures and humans so they get to live there as long as the Cat Box remains closed. If opened, they will have to face up to the fact that either they are dead or don't exist in the first place. Still, it is perfectly normal to question the ehtic behind this standpoint. Obviously, Beatrice gets a happy ending when she killed everyone. But in the end, she decides that she doesn't deserve it, so she commits suicide.
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2012-02-09, 09:21
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Link #383 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Well, the "nothing of the sort" is debatable here. I think most people, even Ange could read quite well between the line how lonely and sad Maria actually is. At the end of the day, I truly believe that, running away from reality could bring you no good. And the story seemed to suggest it, until Chiru anyways. Haha, but I do believe that maybe I ask too much out of a nine years old kid. Anybody has their own thought, really. At least it's better to exchange thoughts than to kept it to yourself, don't you think so? |
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2012-02-09, 09:33
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Link #384 | ||||
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別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I also found this: Quote:
It must also be said the other instances where Genji says he's furniture are most definitely "magic" scenes, but it was impossible to tell at the time of EP2 since there wasn't anything blatantly magical in most of them. What bothers me the most is that I don't remember Genji calling himself furniture ever again past EP2. Quote:
But from my point of view if you attack Ryuukishi from the "mystery" standpoint you are still dancing in the palm of his hand. It's him who kept talking about mysteries and mystery rules the whole story. I never started Umineko with the idea of reading a conventional mystery, and I think that's true for most umineko readers. Higurashi wasn't a conventional murder mystery at all. It was more like a horror\thriller with mystery elements and supernatural stuff as a side dish. It is true that Ryuukishi himself created the expectation of a "serious" mystery, and that became even more true when he made "fun" of certain plot devices he used in Higurashi. But we shouldn't forget that what we really need to focus is the narrative validity of Umineko in general, because Ryuukishi is not a conventional murder mystery writer no matter how you look at it. Now I think there's been the wrong assumption that the Van Dine's rules and the Knox's rules are all about writing "fair" mysteries and "solvable" mysteries. Think again, that's not just that. What has the existence of a "chinaman" villain to do with "fairness" and "solvability"? And what about a servant as a culprit? This misunderstanding seems to have led Ryuukishi and umineko readers to focus way too much in thinking in terms of solvability and less on terms of "writing a good story", which was in fact an important objective behind Knox's and Dine's rules. Let's take for example the lack of an explanation about "what truly happened in 1986"? Does the necessity of an answer have anything to do with mystery rules? No. If in Final Fantasy VII they didn't tell me what happened "5 years before" I'd be equally pissed. And while I haven't read all the novels I pretty much expect that "what happened 3 years before" is explained somewhere in Haruhi Suzumiya. This is a problem of building up great expectations for some sort of grand revelation and then refusing to reveal it. Or even worse: implying that no sort of grand revelation even exists at all. Going back to the issue of "mystery rules" VS "narrative rules", I could say that making a Watson randomly come up with the solution of a case isn't "smart" as Ryuukishi seems to imply in "our confession", it's narratively underwhelming as John Dickinson Carr very clearly stated in one of his essays. And I could say that while a single person fooling everyone else is a genius mastermind, a single person being fooled by everyone else is just bullying. I could talk about the chekhov's gun, which Ryuukishi disregards repeatedly by adding "noise" everywhere. But anyway, I think I made my point already.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-02-09 at 10:24. |
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2012-02-09, 09:36
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Link #385 | |
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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I also do believe that facing up to reality and overcoming its obstacles is the right thing to do, but in Maria's case it's a little different. Even if she faced up to it, what could she do? She was lonely, and no one, not even her mother would accept her. Rather than lamenting this fact, which couldn't get the problem solved anyways. Even if she accepted her mother as an evil person, she couldn't help but love her, she's a nine year old child. If you put it like 'deluding herself' it sounds bad. But I don't perceive Maria as sad. Because she was happy within the magic she created. Reality in your own world is for you, and you alone to decide. For example, even if she did face up to the fact that she wasn't loved, that would only create scars in her heart, and then she'd push the pain onto her own children, perhaps. But Marriage Sorcier's magic solves and heals all those scars, which I wouldn't call wrong. And I think it's pretty cruel to call Maria sad while she herself declares she's happy. Not once was there a hint of Maria herself seeing this as hollow and empty. In the same way, why is it that we claim Rosa didn't love Maria? The Cat Box is closed, so what if Rosa was a loving mother who tried to find the time to spend with her daughter? If you don't accept magic, in other words, without love, Maria is a sad pitiful girl who deludes herself to escape from her problems. But if you have love, then Maria can use magic to create the non-existing happiness. It's all a matter of perspective.
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2012-02-09, 12:36
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Link #386 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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I never actually cared that much about the Mystery aspect. It was very interesting, and I have ideas for solutions to a number of them now, but I don't consider it to be the main part of the story. To me, it's more like a means of telling the story in a fun way. It's also a means of understanding more about who Yasuda is, and what kind of relationship she and Battler have. So I don't really mind the fact that the truth of Prime wasn't given. I wasn't expecting that to happen anyway. I've been able to enjoy the story just fine even without it. I know quite well that even if I find an answer that I believe is the truth, there's still the possibility that it's not the truth. I'm also fine with that. R07 told me to find an answer that satisfies me, so that's exactly what I'll do. |
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2012-02-09, 13:42
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Link #387 | |||
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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My priorities apparently differ strongly from the author's. Quote:
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I don't know the first thing about the "rules" of the genre, because I've never read the genre as a genre. The last "detective story" I think I read before Umineko was Asimov's The Robots of Dawn. Which is a mystery story, but I approached it from science fiction, because that's mostly what I read, 50s-70s sci-fi and fantasy. I did not have any expectations for Umineko as a genre work and I equated it categorically with Higurashi. Now Higurashi was not a mystery; it was a supernatural thriller. I would argue Umineko is not a mystery either; it's a mundane thriller with a supernatural side story. In that respect, my initial classification was closer to what the reality of the story actually was. However, I have a background in writing and editing. I wrote in school for pleasure and for studies. I write extensively, on a daily basis, as part of my job (granted, what I do has nothing to do with fiction). And when I have time, I write for pleasure, and I read about the craft of writing itself, because I'm fascinated purely with the idea of the written word. This makes me critical of Ryukishi's work as a craftsman. I'm fascinated by the raw material he works with and the creativity in his expression, but much like the artwork he draws, when I examine it even casually I find it to be full of flaws, corner-cutting, and laziness which detracts from the brilliance that occasionally shows through. Flaws like characterization issues, redundant writing, excessive description that bogs down scenes that are supposed to be taut and quickly-paced. Corner-cutting like not hiring an artist or editor, changing things to assuage the audience, or not generally acting like the professional that - "doujin work" label or not - he must conduct himself as. Laziness like plot threads and red herrings never addressed and major themes introduced and not adequately developed. I think these things, rather than malice or cynicism, contributed to the schizoid impression of his message and his overall quality that some readers have found. I like the story, but I do not like the work. I like the style of his character design, but I do not like the implementation in the actual sprites. I like the characters but I do not like their development (or lack thereof). It's like he's a miner who found a cache of gorgeous natural rubies, and rather than do the best he can to ensure that they are cut into the most jaw-dropping gemstones anyone has seen in centuries, he tries to do everything himself and produces a bunch of small, amateurishly-cut stones that are generally regarded as a waste of raw material. I'd love more than anything to see those things shine. But he is not a competent enough craftsman by himself, and until he starts to conduct himself professionally he never will be. I think Type-Moon is actually a good example of contrast. They became more professional over time and their crafstmanship improved even if their actual content did not. The Kara no Kyoukai films are gorgeous and brilliantly-realized, they're just the nonsense scribblings of a high schooler who played way too much Mage: The Ascension. Ryukishi has better ideas, but he isn't professional at all. It disappoints me far more to see a good idea wasted by laziness than a terrible idea lavished with love and care. A brilliantly-cut piece of cheap artificial crystalware shines more brightly than a scuffed and amateurish ruby, but it's the latter you wish had the cut of the former, as then you could throw the other one away.
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2012-02-09, 16:18
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Link #388 |
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Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well that is another point, I think, that has been missed.
Professionalism... Tsukihime vs Fate for instance? Yet so many people got way more into Tsukihime then Fate. The "Indie" feel of a given work can be a huge part of what gives it charm. Jan-Poo and Renall brought up some aspects concerning narrative vs fairness, and I'm glad to see people are starting to care less about the fairness of stories. I still think it's not the central point however of the whole thing. Higurashi had a huge Indie feel to it as well, same for Umineko, but somehow along the way the tolerance for that dropped badly. I mentioned in earlier post that most of the critics of Umineko felt to me like they were part of the VN-culture in japan. The indie feel of doujin VN I believe is a huge part of what actually brought Higurashi fans to it. Nasu even tho not Indie anymore really kept that overall feeling and I believe is a central part of the success (indie feel and mood but done with the budget of professional work). I can say however that anything that people claim Umineko "tried to be" (like a revolutionary piece of literature or whatever) would ring more true to me if it wasn't a Doujin VN sold in comiket. So ultimately this is why I talk about wrong target market and expectations more then a bad story or anything. Renall's comment about Kara no Kyoukai is pretty much how Umineko should be taken as IMO. Perhaps not high school level cause Umineko remains at least a bit beyond that, but overall Umineko should be understood as something like a random fanfiction made by a student, even if it wasn't the case. As for target audience Umineko feels like an inside joke. Outside of being serious it actually has a lot in common with the kind of humour where the joke is on the reader. But it's an inside joke, so it's sorta hard to appreciate it in most case. I find it hard to make/take a good example of what I really mean so I'll go with the epitaph... If the one asking the epitaph riddle has a lot in common with the one trying to answer it, it already helps. Beyond that if let's say they both were raised in Taiwan and called it their beloved homeland even tho neither were born there, if Kinzo's old nickname or whatever had been "lord u" to the one trying to answer it, if a particular conversation between the two lead to Kyo = 10 quadrillion occurred between the two making the asker know it's something the other is going to be able to guess, etc... ... solving the epitaph becomes an "inside" between the two of them and it has a completely different value then the epitaph asked to "us" (especially us if we don't know about the church). Now someone else could have similar experience to the person trying to solve it and also be able to solve it even if they don't know the questioner, but it's by no means something directed at everyone and you can't exactly create a category of people who it'd be for. Pretty much the same as a "you had to be there" type of experience. So to me that is pretty much what Umineko feels like to me, and most critics seems to comes from that as well. As a last example I'll use Kill Bill movies, which I'll use as an example of something that has mostly that same "inside" feeling but where it still managed to be appreciated (for something else) by a lot of people. It was also targeted primarily at these people who aren't "inside". Umineko however doesn't seem like that at all. More like it wasn't too sure what genre it should attract and ended up attracting a lot of people but possibly none was "inside" and Ryuukishi's attitude felt a lot like critics of the readers not able to get to that "inside" rather then him trying to make it into something that could easily be enjoyed by most of his crowd. In many ways I think it'd be much easier to have enjoyed Umineko if Ryuukishi was sorta a total nobody and didn't create such fandom to his work. As readers we would have approached it differently and hopefully as writer he would have reacted differently. |
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2012-02-10, 19:08
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Link #390 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I'm pretty sure you wouldn't lose any doujin feel if you just added an editor. I mean, just to check that each scene is actually worthwhile and that all the issues brought up are addressed later.
And it's kindof odd that Ryukishi wouldn't want an artist or editor when he seems perfectly willing to outsource the music (which generally comes out great). ...Although did Fate/Stay Night actually have any editing? It seems to suffer far more from pretty much all of the mentioned editorial problems than Umineko did. |
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2012-02-10, 21:51
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Link #391 |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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A lot of Fate/Stay Night's problems, though, stem from subpar translating and the fact that the writer often isn't fully sober when he writes. I'm pretty sure he has an editor, though no guarantee he LISTENS to them.
I stick to my theory that Ryukishi had a severe mental breakdown after BT died. Nothing else makes sense to me for how Umineko came out the way it did.
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2012-02-11, 01:13
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Link #392 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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About the mental breakdown, I actually don't want to touch it as it is a bit disrespect for the dead. But in a sense it's actually make sense. The story only grows very confusing after BT dies, and I think only after that did the story has a certain degree of secret despair, like "nobody could understand my heart." I could not really pin it down, but it lingers there. |
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2012-02-11, 01:59
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Link #393 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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Eh, fuck it, it's probably both of them, knowing how they are. XD
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2012-02-11, 22:06
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Link #394 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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 Wait a minute, I heard he got the ideas of When They Cry while drinking with ZUN... Well, Renall pretty much nails my thought down with his post. I always feel Umineko has potential, but it is quite wasted at the end of the journey. In a sense, Ryukishi put on his shoulder a harder task than he could currently handle. And to be honest the guy did not polish his stones hard enough, truly as Renall's metaphor. But I would still give the guy credit as doing something different from what other VN creators is working on. Amongst VNs, I would still view Umineko as one of better, more ambitious works. (I like Type Moon, but never a big fan of them, as when I read I feel I have nothing to think about.) Umineko might disappoint me as it is now, but it's still a work with a lot of thing to discuss about (whether good or bad), its premises still quite inspiring for later fan works (amongst them there're a few that are very good) and it still proves to me that Ryukishi COULD generate ideals and makes people interested in his story. That's why, I still look forward to his next works. Not Higanbana though, that one is nothing more than horror flick. To sum up, I feel that it's not a waste to read this story. If only it was not that long... |
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2012-02-12, 15:39
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Link #395 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, when I started reading Umineko I didn't really expect it to be the mystery of the century so maybe that's why I'm not so disappointed with it, though I too have my share of complains.
But what I think is really wrong in Umineko is that the effort that asks to its readers might not be proportionate with its quality. We're asked to make the effort of finding the solution. The longer we work on it the more the solution that Ryukishi thought needs to be perfect in order of being satisfing. In order to continue making efforts in finding a satisfying solution we're asked to believe that there's a satisfying solution. If Ryukishi in the end will provide one that's not satisfing we'll feel betrayed. I'll be happy if in the end we'll discover Ryukishi has this perfect solution planned all along... however I'm not sure it's possible for him to have it. In short I fear he aimed too high and if he'll fail to hit the target he has only himself to blame. |
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2012-02-13, 13:17
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Link #396 | |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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The sad part is, there's very little of ep1-4 that I'd cut. The quality of the first half of the series is, by VN standards, stellar. That's part of what bothers me so much, it's not like it was consistently problematic. It just had occasional moments where it veered into incompetence. An editor could've touched up 1-4 with a little tweak here and there and some shortening of a few scenes. But he'd have to take a hacksaw to 5-8.
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2012-02-14, 05:01
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Link #397 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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It's quite clear to me that the author has somewhat a mental breakdown in Chiru. And yes, I loved the first part of Umineko too. That's what make me rise the bar so high for it. PS: Renall, I would totally love you if you truly make an edit... |
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2012-02-14, 10:00
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Link #398 | |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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With Chiru though, I'd ideally want to flat-out rewrite it, and it really isn't my place to rewrite the entire second half of somebody's work. That's somewhere along the lines of hating the "Star Wars" prequels so you decide to rewrite Episode I-III. Sure, you could do it, but I wouldn't suggest it, and it wouldn't have much of a point to it. Though "The Phantom Edit" was a lot better than the actual Episode I.
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2012-02-14, 10:17
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Link #399 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Something about this idea that chiru needs to be completely rewritten because you personally didn't enjoy it kind of feels... a little rude? Especially towards the people that did like it exactly the way it was? Sorry if I'm coming across as being really unreasonable or impolite, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. Of course, people can do what they want, but still... |
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2012-02-14, 10:22
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Link #400 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I think part of the over-arching problem that almost everyone has touched upon is that too often (Or at least, by the end of the series) we're goaded into believing there is one correct way to resolve all this, encouraged to find an answer (Which is heavily implied if not outright stated to exist) and then told "lol nope" (With the implication that if you actually wanted an answer to what happened on Prime, you are somehow in the wrong).
Example - Episode 1-4, Battler is Mr. Truth, Mr. Humans did it, Mr. Get me the fuck off this island...and all of a sudden he figures out the truth and decides "Ok, only I deserve to know this shit" So no matter what we get a situation where BATTLER is in the wrong because either - Truth wasn't that bad at all (Ex. It was all a big misunderstanding/accident that lead to deaths) and didn't need to be known (So why hide it? The family you claim to love so much is getting a bad rep in the future and you just choose to not give a fuck for some reason?) Truth was something so traumatizing that certain people would find it unbearable (So it's fair to just leave all those other people in the dark? I mean, apparently Ange is the only one who gets to make a decision here despite even the Boat Captain probably being more qualified and connected to the actual events of what went on, but hey apparently knowing the truth is running on a system of nepotism in the world of Umineko so if you aren't in the Ushiromiya family gtfo) Truth is Battler was the culprit and he is just saving his own ass (So the moral is, being selfishly protecting yourself while compromising the integrity of the dead = good while wanting to expose a murderer = bad) Furthermore, we get shit like characters who were devout pursuers of the truth earlier on suddenly becoming the biggest supporters of keeping shit locked up, why is this? We're told good mystery novels are like love between the author and reader. However, as the series goes on it feels more like Ryukishi is just raping his readers, forcing his proverbial moral dong up their ass. This isn't even skimming the tip of the iceberg when it comes to contradictions or seemingly pointless plot threads, many of which have already been listed. Example - How do we even know for sure that Kyrie is Battler's real mother, other than info we learn in BATTLER's seemingly bullshit game in Episode 8? Isn't accepting that information the same as accepting anything else that was presented in that game? Furthermore, why does Battler's true mother even matter at this point other than to close up a plot point that seemingly wasn't even relevant to begin with? To take that further, how can we say we even know ANYTHING about any character other than what we're presented through the forgeries or Yasu's story? Other than some shit people wrote about these people how much can we actually say we know about them in reality? If everything we see is part of some internal dialogue (Within Ange or Tohya) or part of a forger's story then even the scenes with Rosa being a bitch to Maria are suspect. I mean if an actual record of social services getting on Rosa's ass for being a dick to her daughter exists we aren't made aware of it as far as I recall. Continuing from there where the fuck did Ange even get Maria's diary from, why was this never even mentioned? What the fuck was the point of bringing up Black Magic vs. Good Magic? Oh you're not going to bring what up again at all? Ok then. Speaking of the narrative, is the meta-world "metaphor" for some inner struggle going on within Tohya and Ange, or "meta" as in a plane of existence where fantasy and shit really does exist and doesn't need justification in real world terms? There are a ton of scenes that would make almost absolutely no sense unless the meta-perspective was given. If this is all a part of the narratives of the forgeries in the "Prime" timeline, then how come we never hear anyone say something like "Who is this Bernkastel bitch who appears in almost every forgeries narrative, why did this story just end with half the cast alive when everyone is supposed to die, what the fuck are the tea parties supposed to mean?". So while Ryu's intent might have been to say something along the lines of - "Nobody should speculate about or chase after a tragedy for their own amusement or gratification (Intellectual Rapist)." What the text actually conveys becomes "Only a select few people deserve to know the truth, and if that's inconvenient for them well too bad nobody else should know. Oh by the way, if you (the reader) want to know the truth you are pretty much an asshole too." |
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