Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

Where are you guys getting all of this extra info from? Like about Caster's original master.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Then explain how Saber could run on water? She claims to have the blessing of hte Lady of the Lake, but it is clear that he doesn't after she demands he gives up Excalibur and the scabbard, or present her the head of Balin le Savage. (Balin kills her with the axe of the Green Knight then and there)

It's the anecdotes about the heroes which give them their noble phantasms. Even if only used once, they'll keep it.

Then why doesn't Saber have Avalon when she's first summoned? If Heroic Spirits automatically 'came' with any item they used even once, she should have always had her scabbard, but instead she only had Excalibur because she explicitly lost the scabbard partway through her career, whereas Excalibur was with her up until her final battle. So she didn't have the scabbard with her, because her story said she lost it. Which also meant that someone else was able to find and use it to summon her, even.

I am willing to accept that not all of them might work that way, granted, since Saber is a unique case. But there's no evidence they don't all work that way either.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Where are you guys getting all of this extra info from? Like about Caster's original master.

I seem to recall Caster ranting for a bit about what a twat he was during her flashback to how she met Kuzuki in UBW, but that's all I recall personally. It's been awhile since I've read the details.

[Flinch]

Arthur's sister stole the scabbard from him to return it to Avalon. When her lover, Accolon, was killed for trying to usurp Arthur's throne for the people of Avalon, he and a few knights gave chase. Knowing she couldn't outrun them, Morganna threw the scabbard into a lake. Because it was encrusted with so many jewels, it sank like a rock. Because this was such a key part of the legend, Arthur couldn't have it. Had Arthur kept the scabbard, he never would've died from the wounds dealt by Mordred at Camlann.

[Moczo]

Yes. I know. And a key part of Perseus's legend is that after he completed his quest to slay Medusa and returned to found his own kingdom, he returned the gifts that the Gods had given him and offered Athena the head of Medusa in thanks. How is that different?

[Flinch]

Perseus returned them of his free will, Arthur defied those who set him on the throne and they took back what was theirs. Eventually, they got their sword back, but no one got the scabbard.

[Moczo]

True, I just don't see how that makes much of a difference, y'know? The heroes lost these items, and it is explicitly a part of their story that they lost these items before going on to continue their lives and careers. Why should how they lost the items make a difference?

[Endscape]

Actually, Rider compared Perseus to a Shinji who succeed. In short an utterly selfish person with large ego but his brags have a real base at least.

Actually Rider herself said in that scene that she didn't hate Perseus, more that she was pissed that he was walking around with her head. When she said that, I think she meant that both of them were manipulated, Shinji by Zouken and Perseus by the Greek gods, simply as bait, but Perseus succeeded, while Shinji... is Shinji.

Then explain how Saber could run on water? She claims to have the blessing of hte Lady of the Lake, but it is clear that he doesn't after she demands he gives up Excalibur and the scabbard, or present her the head of Balin le Savage. (Balin kills her with the axe of the Green Knight then and there)

It's the anecdotes about the heroes which give them their noble phantasms. Even if only used once, they'll keep it.

The blessing likely has nothing to do with if she has the sword or not, you know.

And also, anecdotes alone don't make a Noble Phantasm, it has to be an inseparable part of the hero's legend. If it was anything about a hero that became a Noble Phantasm, then Lancer would have Fragarach, since Cu Chulainn used it in his life, not to mention Rider summoning Chrysaor.

Then why doesn't Saber have Avalon when she's first summoned? If Heroic Spirits automatically 'came' with any item they used even once, she should have always had her scabbard, but instead she only had Excalibur because she explicitly lost the scabbard partway through her career, whereas Excalibur was with her up until her final battle. So she didn't have the scabbard with her, because her story said she lost it. Which also meant that someone else was able to find and use it to summon her, even.

I am willing to accept that not all of them might work that way, granted, since Saber is a unique case. But there's no evidence they don't all work that way either.

Saber doesn't have Avalon because she isn't a full Heroic Spirit yet, since she's still alive. It's stated that if she were a full Heroic Spirit, she'd have Caliburn and Avalon.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

He might not get to use all of those, remember. The Greek Gods definitely do exist in the Nasuverse, and the Helm, Greaves, and Shield were loaned to Perseus for one mission from the respective gods who actually owned them, after which he gave them back. Heroic Spirit Perseus might not have them all as Noble Phantasms since other, more powerful beings have stronger claim to them.

It doesn't matter if he had them when he died. He gets the weapons that are attached to his legend, and his legend involves killing Medusa. The only exception to that is Saber, because she came directly from the field where she was dying rather than from the Throne of Heroes, and so only had the equipment she was carrying at the time.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

It doesn't matter if he had them when he died. He gets the weapons that are attached to his legend, and his legend involves killing Medusa. The only exception to that is Saber, because she came directly from the field where she was dying rather than from the Throne of Heroes, and so only had the equipment she was carrying at the time.

I'm just wondering if he'd still get to keep them as Noble Phantasms because they are also part of his legend as not being his. They are much more strongly attached to the stories of other, more powerful beings. So does he still get to keep them as a Heroic Spirit?

[GDB]

Wouldn't Archer be an exception as well? He doesn't have the sheathe either, since he gave it up during his life (likely to Saber).

And didn't Hercules borrow items from the gods at some point too?

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by GDB

Wouldn't Archer be an exception as well? He doesn't have the sheathe either, since he gave it up during his life (likely to Saber).

That's a good question. Do we know where Archer comes from? Or is that up to each person to decide?

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by GDB

Wouldn't Archer be an exception as well? He doesn't have the sheathe either, since he gave it up during his life (likely to Saber).

And didn't Hercules borrow items from the gods at some point too?

And like Endscape mentioned, part of Cu Chulainn's stories is that for a time he was the owner of the sword Fragarach, but Lancer doesn't have that.

And while they wave away most of Hercule's Noble Phantasms by saying he doesn't have the dexterity to wield them as a Berserker, but what about the pelt of the Nemean lion? He just wore that as armor, it's not like it would take any skill to do that.

So really, there's a lot of exceptions. I wonder how they decided who got what items?

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, it's a good question. But, it's not "what they had when they died", because otherwise many servants would be missing their most famous NPs due to them not having them at the moment of their death (King Arthur, for example, wouldn't have Excalibur since it was thrown in the lake before he died).

As for the pelt of the Nemean lion, its ability was that it's pretty much impossible to penetrate, so it's almost certainly the origin for God Hand's "can't be broken by any attack of rank B or below" ability. So, Berserker does have it, it's just in a conceptual form.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, it's a good question. But, it's not "what they had when they died", because otherwise many servants would be missing their most famous NPs due to them not having them at the moment of their death (King Arthur, for example, wouldn't have Excalibur since it was thrown in the lake before he died).

As for the pelt of the Nemean lion, its ability was that it's pretty much impossible to penetrate, so it's almost certainly the origin for God Hand's "can't be broken by any attack of rank B or below" ability. So, Berserker does have it, it's just in a conceptual form.

Yeah, I can accept that. There has to be some reason why certain heroes get some of the things they had in life but not others, but it's not like we're ever told what exactly it is. Basically, yet another argument with no real answer. Those do tend to pop up a lot in this game.

Maybe it has something to do with class, and they're assigned only some of their potential NPs to match that? Like, if Cu Chulainn had been called as a Saber instead of a Lancer, he'd have Fragarach instead of Gae Bolg? And Medea, in at least some versions of her legend, had a chariot given to her by Helios, so maybe if she were summoned as a Rider she could use that as a Noble Phantasm.

EDIT: Also, it occurs to me that even the highest class Servants seem to have three Noble Phantasms at most, which probably has some bearing on which they're assigned. If more than three exist, they get the three that most exemplify them?

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, in the case of Fragarach, it seems that Lancer in the TM universe never had it classed as his NP, since Bazett still has it.

As far as we're aware, the NPs a servant gets do not depend on class. It wouldn't really make sense for them to do so, because the class is just a 'container' for the soul. It doesn't create the NPs, those come with the spirit itself. Also, there's no real evidence that servants are limited to 3 NPs. It's just that having any more than that would be extremely unusual.

[Moczo]

I don't know, I still kinda like that as a theory, if only because I've yet to think of any better reasoning behind it. For instance, supplementary materials state that Caster has the Golden Fleece (well, it's called 'Argon Coin', but you know), which allows the summoning of a Dragon. It's technically considered a Noble Phantasm, but she can't use it so it never comes up. If she were a different class, say a Rider, would that change? Her Helios-given chariot was pulled by dragons in the legend, after all. In that case it wouldn't be that their assigned class affects the Noble Phantasms they have, just which of the ones they have that they can use.

And yeah... I really just noticed that in both FSN and Fate/Zero all of the Servants involved had three or fewer and thought it might be relevant. I'm really just tossing theories out when they come to me at this point.

[Endscape]

Probably the Servants get the Noble Phantasms most strongly associated with their legends. I mean you can't think of Medusa without thinking of the Pegasus or Cy Chulainn without the Gae Bolg. Also I doubt that Lancer didn't get Fragarach because the Fraga family still has it. After all, they use a ritual to recreate Fragarach. I don't think they have the actual thing.

[Flinch]

The heroes are who they are because of their NPs, and the NPs are directly important because of the hero that uses them.

Also, Caliburn is a hax weapon. Excalibur is stated many times in the legend that it is the greatest sword EVER (which is why it is Anti-Fortress; Sword of Mars which Atilla the Hun would have would be that, so Excalibur is inherently better), so no sword could possibly do more damage (Ea is a god, not a sword, and Enuma Elish a poem, not an attack) that it.

That out of the way, Perseus would get whatever NPs were directly responsible for him becoming a hero and maintaining that status, which are those given to him by the gods (hermes, really).

I've thought this stuff through WAY too much while making servants for a friends fanfic, then making new ones when he changes his mind.

[Keroko]

I'm curious though, you're calling Perseus the most powerful servant that can beat even Gil on account of the Phantasm that he has, yet Gilgamesh has many more phantasm's than Perseus.

Speaking of his phantasm's, once Gil brings out Gungnir or Mjöllnir it becomes an 'unstoppable force versus immovable object' scenario to which the answer relies purely on who the author wants to win.

[Moczo]

I'm still curious if Perseus would get those three items because they're attached to other stories more strongly. For example, the Sandals of Hermes are attached to Perseus's legend, yes, but they're more strongly attached to the legend of Hermes himself. Now, it's not possible to summon Hermes as a Servant since he's a god and not a heroic spirit, but he is still the being the Sandals are most associated with. I guess my real question is: Does a Heroic Spirit get to use an item as a Noble Phantasm if it's connected to another being more strongly than it is to them?