Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

When I read that scene in the VN, not even for one second did I think that Shinji was a "threat". In my mind he was the buttmonkey of the series already... I mean on first glance everyone saw Shirou as an incompetent Magican noob. However Shinji was even worse. He was not even a magican at all, got stomped by Shirou and would probably easily lose against every other master as well. Not to mention that Shirou, aside from at least being a magus at all, was also physically stronger than him. It burned the impression into my head that "no matter what Shinji tries, he will, in 100% of all cases, always fail".

And that was even BEFORE I read HF, which was the "finishing move" for him (in my mind).

Ahh, harsh - back to topic

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Ahh, harsh - back to topic

OK. If not replaced, then I hope ufotable/Nasu at least turn Shinji into a less boring character. First he was the abusing big brother (which was appearantly completely forgotten by some point), then he was a support character for a mid-boss (Rider), then he was "the master" (in name) of Gilgamesh for a few minutes, he got a short rape attempt scene, then he runs away, gets captured and is then used for experiments by a mad scientist the grail, only to be saved by that one girl that he just tried to attempt to rape. I just summarized the complete involvment of Shinji in Unlimited Blade Works. He really is in need of some improvement. Considering that he is a throw-away character in the HF movie, his only chance to be involved is in UBW.

I also think that Taiga needs a bit screentime. I hope they use the same "special" format they did for Fate/Zero for the Irisviel classes. They were designed after the Tiger Dojo after all, so they could easily use the same format for a Tiger Dojo adaption as well (and add the bad endings!)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

1. Sakura's story gets "resolved" by her death and by extension Zouken could also be killed off

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.

Originally Posted by scyllus

These are not bad propositions at all.
On 1. You could move Rin's investigation of Matou household into UBW. Why isn't it ever questioned how could Shinji summon Rider in the first place? You could include her contacting Kotomine to help her get rid of Zouken, or just let Archer or Rin rip him to shreds, while giving Sakura a "false" saving, making UBW true a little easier to swallow(because rin had no way of knowing the heart worm secret).Having Sakura die just to make sure Zouken is really dead requires the knowledge of the entire HF route, and on it's own it just...well for me sadism:P

I'm not sure how a "false saving" makes UBW True any better, really. It just comes across to me as a way of absolving Rin of as much blame as possible so she can enjoy her happy ending without worry whilst Sakura is still left to suffer.

Originally Posted by mirakura

So how exactly do you think Sakura will fit into UBW, example, what scenes? You can't say they have to fit her in with out saying how

I honestly don't know. But, just because I don't know how they will do it, that doesn't mean I can't speculate that they will do it. I'm not a mind-reader.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Non existent... the dude tried to rape her, it was pretty much a better person moment more than anything to do with Shinji's character.

Well, that is a possible issue with the idea. With Shinji, it is unquestionably just Rin being a really kind person. With Sakura, that isn't really the case, because Rin genuinely cares for her.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.

Even though it would be quite easy to implement, it would come off as a cheap solution (character is hard to implement? meh kill him/her off!). I put "resolved" into quotation marks for a reason.




In the VN Sakura just seems to stop existing altogether after the first few days.

They can only either:
1. Leave her the same way as in the VN
2. Give her pointless camoes, or
3. DO involve her in the story somehow.

There are no other solutions.

2 would just be pandering which would most likely just backfire both for Sakura fans, as well as Fate/Zero-first-watchers, which leaves us with either 1 or 3. If it is 1, then it doesn't matter, if it is 3, then my solution of her replacing Shinji could become plausible (though it would need a bit of work to do that).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Killing her off is not a damn "resolution" to her situation, it's just a way of trying to avoid it. And, I somehow doubt it will satisfy people coming from Zero or Sakura fans.



I'm not sure how a "false saving" makes UBW True any better, really. It just comes across to me as a way of absolving Rin of as much blame as possible so she can enjoy her happy ending without worry whilst Sakura is still left to suffer.



I honestly don't know. But, just because I don't know how they will do it, that doesn't mean I can't speculate that they will do it. I'm not a mind-reader.



Well, that is a possible issue with the idea. With Shinji, it is unquestionably just Rin being a really kind person. With Sakura, that isn't really the case, because Rin genuinely cares for her.

Rin can't really save Sakura so any saving here would be temporary stuff here would be generally meaningless, real development would involve her actually developing a relationship with Sakura as a sister, but ultimately only Sakura can kill Zouken (well amped dark Sakura anyway).

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Even though it would be quite easy to implement, it would come off as a cheap solution (character is hard to implement? meh kill him/her off!). I put "resolved" into quotation marks for a reason.

It's extremely cheap. It's basically just an attempt to get her out of the way without compromising Rin's happy ending, and I really despise that.

In the VN Sakura just seems to stop existing altogether after the first few days.

They can only either:
1. Leave her the same way as in the VN
2. Give her pointless camoes, or
3. DO involve her in the story somehow.

There are no other solutions.

2 would just be pandering which would most likely just backfire both for Sakura fans, as well as Fate/Zero-first-watchers, which leaves us with either 1 or 3. If it is 1, then it doesn't matter, if it is 3, then my solution of her replacing Shinji could become plausible (though it would need a bit of work to do that).

Yeah, given that they're making HF, 2 seems pointless, unless those cameos involve actually developing her relationship with Rin more and giving her at least some route to salvation.

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Rin can't really save Sakura so any saving here would be temporary stuff here would be generally meaningless, real development would involve her actually developing a relationship with Sakura as a sister, but ultimately only Sakura can kill Zouken (well amped dark Sakura anyway).

I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

What you're saying about 3 is possible, but rescuing Shinji does say something about Rin as a character that rescuing Sakura would not (because Rin has attachment to Sakura, whereas she hates Shinji with good reason).

I don't think Rin hates Shinji... She actually always looked down on him and probably still did even then. She most likely just got a bit influenced by Shirou's ideals, but it was so subtle, that I only noticed it while we were having this discussion right now. So her finally warming up to Sakura would not really affect the story that much. However then it would also weaken the resolution in the HF movie(s).

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I don't think that's actually true. The only method we see in canon for killing Zouken is Dark Sakura, but I doubt it's the only possible way it can be done. I don't think Rin can rescue her during the Grail War, but someone else (notably Gil, who does canonically go down to the Matou basement and squish some worms during UBW) could free her, and then other development could happen from there.

But, even if she's not freed, getting Rin to acknowledge her and interact with her more and hinting at some method for helping her in the future would be better than what happens in canon. I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

Maybe also Archer...

Also they have to get to know about the worm in her heart first.

Aside from that, maybe Zouken's worms can be sealed or something... it would leave Sakura's future vague, as it is unknown wether he will be unsealed again or not. It would therefore not make HF obsolete.

[GDB]

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I just don't like the idea of them basically writing it to get rid of Sakura in a way that is solely designed to make Rin feel less guilty or upset rather than to actually help her.

If I remember correctly, Rin only becomes aware of Sakura's "situation" in HF, so I don't see how she might be considered guilty in UBW. Sure, she obviously still cares for her in some way and laments the fact that they were separated as children, but is it really fair to expect her to just waltz in the Matou household and somehow force them to undo an agreement from a decade ago between two magus clans and force them to hand over the child the Matou lineage is counting upon to survive? Not only that, the time Rin and Sakura have spent apart has clearly estranged them and made things rather awkward between them, so that's all the more reason why it might be a little unreasonable to expect her to act in UBW, where she never learns what's really going on with Sakura in the Matou household.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)

Extremely unlikely, considering his entire character motivation was that he was afraid of dying.

Originally Posted by GDB

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

I could also see ufotable go for something like that in order to make Gil a little more like his Zero self, where he still showed some benevolence here and there (whereas in UBW he's easily at his most douchiest).

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GDB

While Archer would be just as capable as Gilgamesh, merely in terms of "ability", I'd agree with not putting him on the list (along with removing Caster and Illya) due to not knowing about the worm. Even if Caster knew, I don't see why she'd remove it anyway.

At least Gilgamesh, being a great King (even if I, and many others, think he's a total dick), could see one of her "training" sessions and bestow some benevolence upon her by freeing her. He wouldn't care if she were crying or begging for help, but the mere fact that she just accepts it might stir something in him.

Gil would be far more likely to kill her out of disgust.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think the only ones who can kill Zouken without Sakura dying are:

1. Zouken himself (suicide, for whatever reason)
2. Dark Sakura
3. Gilgamesh with some concept severing noble phatasm.
4. Caster with some kind of spell
5. Illya controlled by first generation Einzbern

1. not possible. Even in HF it took Ilya in the dress to get him to finally give up and considering her fate in UBW before she could do anything...
2. There's no real was to bring her out in UBW or Fate.
3. Do you REALLY think he would care about someone like Sakura to use anything like that? He'll more likely kill her instead.
4. Why would she?
5. Her fate in UBW doesn't leave this as an option.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Gil would be far more likely to kill her out of disgust.

He could possibly do it, to annoy Zouken though. He, along with Kirei, knows of his existence (if I remember correctly).

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

He could possibly do it, to annoy Zouken though. He, along with Kirei, knows of his existence (if I remember correctly).

why go to all the trouble when he could just kill Sakura to have the same effect on Zouken? either way it trashes Zouken's plans for her but for someone like Gil, killing is a lot either than saving. He also doesn't care about anyone enough to be willing to save her.

[GDB]

Why would he kill her? Why would she disgust him? He isn't a prude, and the fact that she retains herself through 10 years of this would probably impress him. He does like strong-willed people, after all.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

why go to all the trouble when he could just kill Sakura to have the same effect on Zouken? either way it trashes Zouken's plans for her but for someone like Gil, killing is a lot either than saving. He also doesn't care about anyone enough to be willing to save her.

I don't know how much Kirei knows and how much influence he has on Gil, but he wants to witness Angra Mayuu's awakening, if possible, so maybe he would ask Gil not to kill her if possible. Outside HF the shadow would appear later on anyway, according to Archer, it would just take significantly more time for it to happen.

Also there was that "meeting" between Gil and Sakura in the prologue, which was just there and never really led to anywhere. In Fate and UBW, Sakura just stopped being involved in the story altogether, while in HF they just meet again, Gil dies and that's it. Maybe it is a leftover from the Illya route that got scrapped, or something, but I don't understand, why they would include such a pointless scene into the 2nd PV... it COULD be hinting at something... or maybe they just included it "because it also happened in the VN".

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I don't know how much Kirei knows and how much influence he has on Gil, but he wants to witness Angra Mayuu's awakening, if possible, so maybe he would ask Gil not to kill her if possible.

Also there was that "meeting" between Gil and Sakura in the prologue, which was just there and never really led to anywhere. In Fate and UBW, Sakura just stopped being involved in the story altogether, while in HF they just meet again, Gil dies and that's it. Maybe it is a leftover from the Illya route that got scrapped, or something, but I don't understand, why they would include such a pointless scene into the 2nd PV... it COULD be hinting at something... or maybe they just included it "because it also happened in the VN".

I think those first PVs may have included footage from both the UBW and HF adaptations just to keep people speculating about which route they'd be following. So maybe that scene won't be featured at all in the UBW anime and we'll only see it in the HF movie(s).

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I think those first PVs may have included footage from both the UBW and HF adaptations just to keep people speculating about which route they'd be following. So maybe that scene won't be featured at all in the UBW anime and we'll only see it in the HF movie(s).

Even in the context of HF it seemed kind of pointless... a staring contest, wow... and then a few days later one of them dies... what a great "PLOTTWIST"!

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Even in the context of HF it seemed kind of pointless... a staring contest, wow... and then a few days later one of them dies... what a great "PLOTTWIST"!

Gil told Sakura to "go die right now" in that scene. He was checking on the other Holy Grail.

[cyberdemon]

don't forget that in the beginning he walked right up to her and said "Go Die now". He doesn't care enough about her to save her.

[LoveYouSaber]

Originally Posted by GDB

Why would he kill her? Why would she disgust him? He isn't a prude, and the fact that she retains herself through 10 years of this would probably impress him. He does like strong-willed people, after all.

At the same time, I was under the impression that in F/Z he was eagerly looking forward to Saber breaking down under the strain of trying to be an ideal king and then going to taste her tears... so while I understand he appreciates certain strong-willed people like Alexander and Waver, it's not a consistent trait...

[GreyZone]

Well, Gil certainly did not like Shirou and Archer... but that was more due to their "imitation nature" and probably the fact that Gil was aware of the danger they posed to him, which he didn't want to admit, thus leading to him hating them.