[Manga] Chapter 464 Discussion

[noven]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Man you just like to throw out argument just for the sake of posting don't you without anything behind your random remarks? Kakashi got an eye and he developed things with it. Sasuke was already given something developed to further developed upon it. You take that grain as you wish... I'm sure you'll reply within 30 seconds of this post.

You have a double standard for characters you like and don't like. Almost every character in the series has received "gifts" of talent or abilities that they didn't completely earn. You've chosen to selectively ignore these in order to justify your "lolsasugay" fanboi mentality. I'm sorry that Sasuke receiving power ups has made you so angry, but they were most certainly not out of nowhere. Besides, Naruto is going to win in the end, i don't see why people feel the need to QQ about the deuteragonist getting more powerful, it only serves to make the final battle more extraordinary.

[Hell_ping]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Man you just like to throw out argument just for the sake of posting don't you without anything behind your random remarks? Kakashi got an eye and he developed things with it. Sasuke was already given something developed to further developed upon it. You take that grain as you wish... I'm sure you'll reply within 30 seconds of this post.

I'm sorry if you dont like Sasuke. But to be honest, Kishimoto doesnt care whether u like Sasuke or not. He needs to bring out the upgrades for sasuke for the expected 'final battle'. We've seen Naruto being able to handle the six bodies of Pain. And for the final battle, Sasuke must be able to show that he is as strong as Naruto. Which is why I welcomed the upgrade of Susanoo but felt as well it was a bit too fast. (Since its only sasuke's 2nd battle since the fight against Itachi, and the last battle we seen him use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu)

Noven, in most likelihood, Naruto will win. However, in shounen manga, especially at the end, nothing is absolute.

EDIT: Endrance, that's the reality of it all, nobody can make everyone happy.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by james0246

Why would the techniques be okay when Itachi is using them, but not when Sasuke is using them?

I can understand just outright disliking everything to do with the MS, considering it too powerful etc, but deciding that it is okay for certain characters to use the skill set, but other characters cannot, seems a bit arbitrary...

Its only hated on because its sasuke doing it....great example of the oh so powerful haterade at work

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Endrance

Its only hated on because its sasuke doing it....great example of the oh so powerful haterade at work

more like haterade on his Universe destroying Plot Armor.

[SeanQ]

Lol, I just don't like that everything Sasuke does...all the Ninja pokes fun at Itachi for being less-skilled with his eyes than Sasuke, especially since he just had it for what...two weeks at most? and fyi...I don't think Itachi gave him those techs...pretty sure he just gave him auto-amaterasu @ Madara...
and here's my Itachi fanboyism =) I think his Susano would pwn Sasus...his spiritual where as sasu's is physical =)
________
Side effects from depakote

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

more like haterade on his Universe destroying Plot Armor.

I seriously wonder who's plot armor would win out of Sasuke or Hitsugaya.

Neither of them can match Kira though, as much as I like him.

[Haak]

So Ao is a chakra sensor too? Even more convenient.

But this chapter was great. Lots of action.

But i wonder what's the deal with Sasuke's dark chakra and where he got it from? Is it actually his emotions that are affecting the nature of his own chakra. Or did he aquire this dark chakra somehow. Maybe it's related to his MS, but then again he had that dark chakra when he was pwning the samurai and he didn't have an MS on then...

And about Gaara crying...maybe he just had sand in his eye?

[Marcus H.]

Being mind-effed by Madara might be having its effect on him. I might be wrong though.

[Kafriel]

I think it has something to do with the nature of the MS, Itachi said that only those who experience severe emotional disorders get it (well, that's the idea of it anyway) and Sasuke is a very unstable character at the moment, so yeah maybe the more negative he gets the darker his chakra becomes.

[Shiryuu]

So does Madara have mangekyo to the 6th power? What kind of absurd hax can Naruto get to beat Sasuke's hax? Kinda lame that these kids are making "legendary" ninja look like chumps. They're always talking about how war times creates the best ninja, and yet those ones are nowhere close to the current "peace" time ninja. Makes it seem like those people just rejoiced whenever their family got massacred.

Now that I think about it, is the story about sharingan coming from byakugan even true anymore? I think the author is just rewriting everything to make Sasuke more special.

[Kafriel]

So does Madara have mangekyo to the 6th power?

Considering his level of spite towards the rest of the world, he's taken it up to the 12th

What kind of absurd hax can Naruto get to beat Sasuke's hax?

Kyuubi sage rinnegan 4th path kage bunshin FRS!

is the story about sharingan coming from byakugan even true anymore?

I guess it was just rumours after all...-scratches beard-

[Frenchie]

Moare Temari. Because she deserves it!

[Sinfully Naomi]

Goodness Sasuke, you're getting smexier by the minute!

[Haak]

Yeah, really sexy bleeding out of your eye and generally being a dick.

[ChojinLocke]

Originally Posted by james0246

Your complaint (or the complaint you are saying that someone else may have) was that Sasuke power came from someone else (in this case Itachi), so my response, ("You must dislike Kakashi as well...") is more than appropriate for your complaint.

Nearly every character in the series, hell nearly all Shounen series, is "given" a power by someone else. Naruto would be nothing without the Kyuubi; Kakashi next to nothing without Obito's Sharingan; Sakura nothing without Tsunade's l33t skills; Gaara nothing without the Ichibi; Sasuke nothing without the CS/MS; et cetera, et cetera.

Complaining because a character is able to use abilities and techniques more efficiently due to the help (whether forced or consensual) of another character is a preposterous argument unless you are willing to argue the same thing for the majority of other characters (and until you do, your argument is merely a disguise for a personal dislike of a specific character).

Sasuke attained his MS upon realizing Itachi's sacrifice. Every technique we have seen him use so far is the same that Itachi used, but better (well only Amaterasu is confirmed as better, Susano'o will probably not be better and we are not sure if Sasuke has used Tsukuyomi yet).

edit: Sorry I was busy, so I did not meet your demand of 30 seconds...hopefully I will do better next time...

I disagree. Sasuke will surpass Itachi in every conceivable way. The reason being 'hate'. Hate is Uchiha's engine according to 1) Itachi (you lack sufficient hate) 2) Madara. The dark chakra is the medium for the manifestation of that hate and possibly it leads to greater spiritual powers to the level Madara once achieved. If Kishimoto does not give any new ability to Sasuke he might do that later with the EMS to even the field again.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Maybe because he looks at it this way: that power came from Itachi not Sasuke.

That would be a wrong way of "taking it" since that would assert Itachi recieved his powers from his best friend. The requirements for gaining the MS seem to be some sort of a metaphysical spell/ritual that offers a sacrifice to some deity (which could be the monster with sharingan eyes we've seen behind Itachi in his illusion). In the Voodoo religion there are deities that provide certain favors for sacrifices; I'm sure you heard of practitioners sacrificing goats, chicken, etc. for such purposes... The bigger the sacrifice, the more energy the enitity recieves from it, since they somehow consume our "emotional energy" (for lack of a better word).

Certain aspects in the naruto world actually parrallel quite a few practices in the Voodoo religion, such as the relationship between a summoner and summoned (Like Manda, when he demanded sacrifices later on from Orochimaru for helping him in battle) Anyway, its not that Sasuke recieved his abilities from Itachi per say, it was the actual realization of the sacrifice. Its all about sacrifices - which are also interpreted as chemical reactions or the nature of mathematical functions- simply, you get out what you put in (the basis of our universe). Sacrificing someone's family member is a major sacrifice, and would produce a significant amount of emotion.

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Could Sasuke have achieved such a power without Itachi? Hm....

He is the brother of one of the most talented Uchiha; I don't see why he couldn't (Kakshi managed to). They are pretty similar to Madara and his brother. Like naruto, Nagato, etc. he is a character with high potential, and would likely become very powerful regardless of the path he chose, with the same going for them.

With all that said... alot of you hold a serious double standard here. Whenever naruto does something extraordinary, its simply interpreted as him making great strides, and an example of his determination and talent... However, when Sasuke perfoms any significant strides, all of a sudden the author is brought into it( as if he is part of the story), and we hear the all too familiar phrases like "plot no jutsu", "plot armor", etc., as if the main protagonist of the story isn't wearing "plot armor" of his own?

Shit, being the main protagonist, he actually has the thickest "plot armor" in the entire story... Interestingly enough though, I've almost never seen this come up as an issue for him. Even in regards to Sasuke's morbid (and cocky) demeanor, other characters were actually loved for that trait (Gaara, Pein), while in Sasuke's case its suddenly a negative aspect... Can't you realize the flawed basis of these arguements?

Originally Posted by james0246

Sorry I was busy, so I did not meet your demand of 30 seconds...hopefully I will do better next time...

(wow nice avatar. And I watched the show since I finally found out what the show was, its funny as hell lol) I remember you used to do better than 30 seconds in our discussions; but thats back when you were "james3wk". Oh the fun...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Probably Susanoo and Amaterasu will be Sasuke´s answer to anything for quite some time. And hopefully it will lead to following scenario:

Sasuke finally overpowering Naruto but breaking down just before launching his final attack because he has used his MS techniques too often (which appear to damage his body).

All while realising, that he had great potential but chose the wrong path.

Only signature moves can work for quite some time, new one-hit-kill jutsu only work once and then consistantly fail or there wouldn't be much of a fight.
Look at the jutsu Naruto uses to finish his fight, it's the Rasengan. The partial FRS worked once against Kakuzu, the complete FRS worked once against one body and then failled to do anything 6 times in row. Same thing with Amaterasu, it has worked in the past so now it fails and only the new improved version Sasuke is developping will work and when it does it will not work anymore and Sasuke will use something new. It's just the way those things usually work.

Nothing stay all powerful, nothing stay invincible, something new has to be brought every chapter.

Originally Posted by ThoHell

Maybe because he looks at it this way: that power came from Itachi not Sasuke. Could Sasuke have achieved such a power without Itachi? Hm....

No it doesn't, it comes from Sasuke just as Itachi MS jutsu came from him and not Shisui. The fact that the death of the person closest to them is the trigger to awakening the MS doesn't mean they borrow this power from them.

Anyway I dreaded the day Sasuke would start fighting like Itachi with MS spam, it was boring with Itachi and it's boring with Sasuke though the dark Susanoo looks ok I guess. I hope Sasuke will return to a more usual fighting style, maybe spatially manipulating Amaterasu fire into sword and things like because as far as I'm concerned MS spam is a borefest.

One thing I wonder though is if Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. We knew from Itachi and the 3rd Datakook that when Itachi mastered Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu he awakened to Susanoo and Sasuke confirmed this chapter that this ability comes from mastering the MS in both eyes.
But was his 2nd MS mastered ability Tsukuyomi or his more personal ability to manipulate the flame of Amaterasu with his right eye?

[noven]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Only signature moves can work for quite some time, new one-hit-kill jutsu only work once and then consistantly fail or there wouldn't be much of a fight.
Look at the jutsu Naruto uses to finish his fight, it's the Rasengan. The partial FRS worked once against Kakuzu, the complete FRS worked once against one body and then failled to do anything 6 times in row. Same thing with Amaterasu, it has worked in the past so now it fails and only the new improved version Sasuke is developping will work and when it does it will not work anymore and Sasuke will use something new. It's just the way those things usually work.

Nothing stay all powerful, nothing stay invincible, something new has to be brought every chapter.


No it doesn't, it comes from Sasuke just as Itachi MS jutsu came from him and not Shisui. The fact that the death of the person closest to them is the trigger to awakening the MS doesn't mean they borrow this power from them.

Anyway I dreaded the day Sasuke would start fighting like Itachi with MS spam, it was boring with Itachi and it's boring with Sasuke though the dark Susanoo looks ok I guess. I hope Sasuke will return to a more usual fighting style, maybe spatially manipulating Amaterasu fire into sword and things like because as far as I'm concerned MS spam is a borefest.

One thing I wonder though is if Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. We knew from Itachi and the 3rd Datakook that when Itachi mastered Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu he awakened to Susanoo and Sasuke confirmed this chapter that this ability comes from mastering the MS in both eyes.
But was his 2nd MS mastered ability Tsukuyomi or his more personal ability to manipulate the flame of Amaterasu with his right eye?

Interesting, so you're suggesting that Sasuke mastered Amaterasu first and thus his Amaterasu is more masterful than Itachi's in the same way that Itachi's Tsukiyomi was more potent? I like this theory.

Also, i don't think it's been reduced to MS spam yet at this point. There has probably only been about 5 minutes worth of fighting, compared to the Deidara and Itachi fight very little time has passed. He's done just about as much fighting with non-MS techniques as he has with them, the problem is he's being hit pretty hard by superior element users and his counter elements. Even in the KB fight it took a couple of failures of other techniques before he realized how ineffective they were.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Only signature moves can work for quite some time, new one-hit-kill jutsu only work once and then consistantly fail or there wouldn't be much of a fight.
Look at the jutsu Naruto uses to finish his fight, it's the Rasengan. The partial FRS worked once against Kakuzu, the complete FRS worked once against one body and then failled to do anything 6 times in row. Same thing with Amaterasu, it has worked in the past so now it fails and only the new improved version Sasuke is developping will work and when it does it will not work anymore and Sasuke will use something new. It's just the way those things usually work.

Guess you´re right there. However that wouldn´t change the result of Sasuke dying because of the recklessness he uses his jutsus with. In fact it would only fasten the process of his body corrupting.
I believe so, because at this point in the manga, Sasuke´s development is all about crazy, insane stuff. I can´t think of anything else than some even more haxor combinations of MS Jutsus, if not even a completely new one.
A simple upgrade for his Chidori or something would just look ridiculous compared to Naruto at first glance.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

Moare Temari. Because she deserves it!

Spoiler for Temari:

I love it, but unless it was intended, I have one small nitpick since I'm a Temari fangirl. She has dark green eyes.

I bet you anything Shikamaru with his group comes across a bloodied and beaten Temari, and in his best William Shatner from Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, will scream "SASUKEEEEEEE!"

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah, really sexy bleeding out of your eye and generally being a dick.

True. Sasuke has become uglier which might be Kishi's intention. Blood pouring out of your eye is not sexy. Neither are those silly "evil" faces he makes. Gaara on the other hand is looking hotter and hotter.