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[SeijiSensei]

I just caught up with this thread after a few days, and all I see is talk about abortion and conscription. Did I miss the discussion on the flare-up between Taiwan and the Philippines? It's already Wednesday now in Taiwan. What happened with the ultimatum?

http://news.yahoo.com/taiwan-gives-p...031338922.html
http://www.philstar.com/headlines/20...tension-taiwan
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/781641.shtml

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Sure, because they'll be laughing at you, or at least in East Asia. Why don't you try bringing up some numbers? Try reading this for starters for the situation in the US.

Your reference doesn't help your case, unless you have some bizarre definition of "irresponsible behavior".

" most of the time abortion is done due to irresponsible behavior."

That link doesn't support that statement. The survey itself also has an overlap between several categories. "unready for responsibility" overlaps "can't afford" and several other possible reasons. These are also US survey numbers and we're talking about attempts in the US to block abortion access, sex education access, and contraceptive access. Not sure what East Asia has to do with that.

Contraceptives exist for a reason. There are the emergency pills. Thereare also the risky medical conditions which require abortion. The problem is, how many abortions are done because the first two haven't been done or done improperly and the third condition does not exist? As it turns out, that's the majority.

Your math, again, doesn't add up, using your own link. Contraceptives and condoms have fail rates when used properly. Emergency pills have fail rates when used properly. The laws being implemented state by state in the US remove access to care, access to products, and access to education.

Basically, all I'm seeing is a biased view of the situation in order to slam those who disagree with you. I know you're intelligent enough to actually go out and research, so perhaps you should try it before insulting others without knowing what is going on.

I know what is going on, thanks. I'm surrounded by doctors, pharmacists, and technicians who are my friends. I read the news. I follow the research.

It isn't an insult to point out you made an assertion without the basis to back it up. If you want to talk about some place like China where people abort because of the collision between the "one child policy" and the culturally sexist desire to have a male, then that's a different topic. You should familiarize yourself with what is going on in the US with the concerted attempt to basically throw women back into second class humanity by an across-the-board attack from social conservative zealots.

These same zealots in the US do not want to create or support the infrastructure needed that would actually reduce the number of abortions, hence my analysis that it leaves only two underlying reasons for their actions - punishment for having sex at all and a desire to reshackle women under the old-fashioned patriarchal "values" of chattel.

[willx]

^ It also depends on your definition of irresponsible.

That link doesn't support that statement. The survey itself also has an overlap between several categories. "unready for responsibility" overlaps "can't afford" and several other possible reasons. These are also US survey numbers and we're talking about attempts in the US to block abortion access, sex education access, and contraceptive access. Not sure what East Asia has to do with that.

Either or both look pretty irresponsible to me. I'm pro-choice by the way, although it's because I don't hold life to be sacred in any way, but let's not get stuck on what the definition of "is" is.

[Ridwan]

This is what I referred to by "bringing the world down along" few pages back. Not every country shares with US the circumstances that revolves around issues that US culture wars question about. Not every country has culture wars about those very same issues one by one. Not every country has to make culture wars about those same issues using US narratives. But we seem to be heading that way lately...

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Your reference doesn't help your case, unless you have some bizarre definition of "irresponsible behavior".

" most of the time abortion is done due to irresponsible behavior."

That link doesn't support that statement. The survey itself also has an overlap between several categories. "unready for responsibility" overlaps "can't afford" and several other possible reasons.

Well, for starters, look at the AGI study conducted in 2000-2001

Not using contraception: 46.40%
- Forced to have relations: 0.6
Using contraception: 53.60%
- Contraceptive failed despite proper use: 16.9

Even supposing that only 1/10 of those forced to have relations admitted as such, we still have 40.6% who were not using not using contraception in the first place, and those that did use contraception, we can assume that 36.7% did not use them correctly. That basically equals to 77.3% of those who did not use contraception or did not use them correct. How is that not an irresponsible majority?

Originally Posted by Vexx

These are also US survey numbers and we're talking about attempts in the US to block abortion access, sex education access, and contraceptive access. Not sure what East Asia has to do with that.

Your problem is that you equalize a diverse anti-abortion into meaning anti-access/education. That's a sweeping generalization.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Your math, again, doesn't add up, using your own link. Contraceptives and condoms have fail rates when used properly. Emergency pills have fail rates when used properly. The laws being implemented state by state in the US remove access to care, access to products, and access to education.

1. Look above for the numbers.
2. You seem to have completely ignored that I don't oppose all abortions.

Originally Posted by Vexx

I know what is going on, thanks. I'm surrounded by doctors, pharmacists, and technicians who are my friends. I read the news. I follow the research.

I admit, I have to question them if they're that provincial in their outlook.,

Originally Posted by Vexx

It isn't an insult to point out you made an assertion without the basis to back it up. If you want to talk about some place like China where people abort because of the collision between the "one child policy" and the culturally sexist desire to have a male, then that's a different topic. You should familiarize yourself with what is going on in the US with the concerted attempt to basically throw women back into second class humanity by an across-the-board attack from social conservative zealots.

These same people in the US do not want to create the infrastructure needed to reduce the number of abortions, hence my analysis that it leaves only two underlying reasons for their actions - punishment for having sex at all and a desire to reshackle women under the old-fashioned patriarchal "values" of chattel.

In short: You're looking at the entire issue in a provincial matter by equalizing any anti-abortion position as being equal to the extremists who plague the US abortion debate scene. That's not really a position any intelligent and logical person should take, especially on a forum which has diverse people from all over the world. Specifically, right now most of the posts which should be restricted to the US is being said in a tone that any and all of the various anti-abortion positions from all over the world equal the extremist fringe.

[Vexx]

I focused on the US because that's where the original article (the doctor who broke the law) is based. The US also happens to be one of the only tech advanced countries where extremism of this nature is such a problem.

That's from an extract of a 2000-2001 survey (one of the many charts in the report). Not using contraceptives includes lack of access to contraceptives and not having the education to understand ways of avoiding pregnancy. Read the whole report.

I "equalize a diverse anti-abortion into meaning anti-access/education." because that's exactly the case in the United States. The anti-abortion person who supports access and education is an outlier.

I'm not fond of abortion myself but I support access to contraceptives and education. I think abortions should be applied sparingly but that isn't what is being pushed in the United States by the primary forces involved. The laws being passed and now in effect in a dozen states are eliminating effective access to all those tools for women.


I jumped on your use of the term "most" because your own numbers don't support that word. Look at what the report calls an "elective abortion" down in the summation section.

elective
--too young/immature/not ready for responsibility 32 %
--economic 30%
--to avoid adjusting life
--mother single or in poor relationship ~13%
--enough children already ~4-8%
--sex selection

That's from the summation chart at the bottom of the report that attempted to correlate the dozen pages of data from various states and time periods ranging from the late 80s to a few years ago.

I'd call "too young", "economics", "single or abusive relationships" pretty *responsible* reasons for taking the last resort.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd call "too young", "economics", "single or abusive relationships" pretty *responsible* reasons for taking the last resort.

The fact they had sex despite the first two circumstances (third is definitely a valid reason) was irresponsible. That already adds up to 62%.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The fact they had sex despite the first two circumstances (third is definitely a valid reason) was irresponsible. That already adds up to 62%.

And here's where we'll have to disagree and there probably isn't a way to convert each other.

Sex is a basic human biological function. It is a way people who care about each other bond. For some, it is a way of just escaping. You're calling all of that irresponsible.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Sex is a basic human biological function. It is a way people who care about each other bond. For some, it is a way of just escaping. You're calling all of that irresponsible.

I do, but then I also live by that standard.

[Ridwan]

Irresponsible people aren't exactly terminable so I'd prefer ban on late term while providing easy access to early check up and early abortion for safety measure against medical risk and illegal service.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd call "too young", "economics", "single or abusive relationships" pretty *responsible* reasons for taking the last resort.

Whee, what is the definition of responsible/irresponsible again? I call that *irresponsible* for not using contraception, but I call it *responsible* for choosing not to bring a child into that situation. Win-win!

[Seitsuki]

I think it was said before, but there was a reason the topic was dropped. Let's give it a rest ok guys? Nothing good can come from further discussion.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I think it was said before, but there was a reason the topic was dropped. Let's give it a rest ok guys? Nothing good can come from further discussion.

Just another one of those topics that tends to lend to people substituting their subjective opinion as objective facts, or at least argue as such.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I just caught up with this thread after a few days, and all I see is talk about abortion and conscription. Did I miss the discussion on the flare-up between Taiwan and the Philippines? It's already Wednesday now in Taiwan. What happened with the ultimatum?

Supposedly Philippines has apologized behind closed doors, and will be doing so again directly to the family of the dead, much to the chagrin of some of the Filipino posters in some news comment sections I read yesterday, some of which apparently wanted open war

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I think it was said before, but there was a reason the topic was dropped. Let's give it a rest ok guys? Nothing good can come from further discussion.

It is still good to have discussion. Whether East Asia or West Europe, there are morons out there who go "because it is like that" and "how many right parts in the sequence will determine how right the sequence is" to push their skewed beliefs forward.

Causation does not imply correlation. And Murphy's law too; it is just like shooting a criminal in his thigh with an intention to capture him then being blitzed by the public when he got permanent brain damage due to hydrostatic shock.

Originally Posted by kyp275

Supposedly Philippines has apologized behind closed doors, and will be doing so again directly to the family of the dead, much to the chagrin of some of the Filipino posters in some news comment sections I read yesterday, some of which apparently wanted open war

Most news agencies here didn't report much on it because they don't want to stock inter-racial hatred. The Pinoy government did the right thing by swallowing the bullet - they shouldn't be pushing for open war when both sides have a common enemy of the PRC.

[Seitsuki]

....why are we the 'enemy'?

Is China the new America? It's cool to hate on us just because? Or is this going to devolve into nationalist bashing except 'there are more of us here than you so we look right'?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

....why are we the 'enemy'?

Is China the new America? It's cool to hate on us just because? Or is this going to devolve into nationalist bashing except 'there are more of us here than you so we look right'?

I dunno, probably have something to do with the fact that you're trying to claim one of them as your own, and is making ludicrous territorial claims against the other?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

....why are we the 'enemy'?

Is China the new America? It's cool to hate on us just because? Or is this going to devolve into nationalist bashing except 'there are more of us here than you so we look right'?

Because PRC now acts like it's the suzerain of the old days?

[Seitsuki]

So now it's all 'pick a side'? I don't get why China is the single country that is singled out to be represented by it's government. Most of us are just trying to live our lives, of course we realise we have a crap government, but then vitriol like this comes along, we defend against it and then people point and claim that it's proof all Chinese are out to get them or something. Why is this the single issue so many people get so partisan about?

[willx]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

So now it's all 'pick a side'? I don't get why China is the single country that is singled out to be represented by it's government. Most of us are just trying to live our lives, of course we realise we have a crap government, but then vitriol like this comes along, we defend against it and then people point and claim that it's proof all Chinese are out to get them or something. Why is this the single issue so many people get so partisan about?

It's because China is out to get them! Badumbump!

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

So now it's all 'pick a side'? I don't get why China is the single country that is singled out to be represented by it's government. Most of us are just trying to live our lives, of course we realise we have a crap government, but then vitriol like this comes along, we defend against it and then people point and claim that it's proof all Chinese are out to get them or something. Why is this the single issue so many people get so partisan about?

That comes from having a crappy government.