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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 74 | 55.22% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 31 | 23.13% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 22 | 16.42% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 5 | 3.73% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 1.49% | |
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-04-21, 14:25 | Link #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Moscow, RU
Age: 35
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2012-04-21, 14:26 | Link #42 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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1. The order was given before the contract went into effect. 2. Any intend was again was before the contract went into effect. 3. contract did not require Kiritsugu to protect or warn Archibald Therefore contract was not violated Case dismiss.
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2012-04-21, 14:27 | Link #43 |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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This episode truly shows the curelness of Kiritsugu is. Unsettling watchign Lancer so angry, so many people. I love how this show is able to make me sympathize with even a pride riden ass like Kayneth.
Great episode all around, tons of emotion and a good fight as well.
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2012-04-21, 14:35 | Link #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 33
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Another great episode.
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2012-04-21, 14:43 | Link #46 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Kiritsugu is FKN Boss. I love how he is the Try Hard master of the grail war. Also...Saber might whine and disagree with Kiritsugu all she wants but she could not have gotten a better master. What a downgrade Shirou was.
Last edited by Broskander; 2012-04-21 at 14:53. |
2012-04-21, 14:56 | Link #48 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I'm a bit confused.
When Sola-Ui got her right hand cut off, how come she stood up right away even after losing all that blood? When she was standing there was also no sign of Maiya until she turned around to see her hand still holding on to the fence (I'm surprised it didn't fall on the ground instead of just hanging there). I'm also surprised at how she was so energetic thinking about her right hand not being there instead of the pain of her arm being cut off. Hopefully it will be extended when the Blu-Ray DVD comes out. |
2012-04-21, 15:14 | Link #51 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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The word "contract" is often misused in general: it isn't the same as your usual business contract. Here, the deal was settled by a strong device alike to a curse that would stop Kiritsugu to act that would bring harm to Kayneth and co. Therefore, the fact he didn't do anything for Maya was permissible for the conditions of the spell, since -he- didn't do that, pure and simple. He has no obligation to protect them either. The simple condition is that he cannot harm them in any fashion, which is didn't himself. Anyway, glad to have Kiritsugu VS Saber scene done: finally some sense knocked in this war, considering how difficult it was to consider Saber serious with her disruptive heroism and prideful honor which have no place on a real battlefield.
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2012-04-21, 15:15 | Link #52 | ||
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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Haha, yeah. Well, Asimov was a genius, these writers, not so much.
It just irks me b/c in addition to showing Kiritsugu is amoral/willing to do anything to win, the writers also intend it to show the cleverness/intelligence of Kuritsugu. It's another example of his ingenious planning and foresight. The problem is, most of his plans have glaringly obvious flaws. If you like to turn your brain off and watch 'splosions, that's fine. But for a series that wants to come across as smart, it's a problem. Quote:
3. Normally, its true that you do not have an affirmative duty to prevent harm from befalling someone. If I see someone choking on food, I can do nothing, watch them die, and not be civilly or criminally liable. However, this contract prohibited Kiritsugu from intending harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Therefore, it gave rise to an obligation on Kiritsugu's part to at least warn Archibald of harm that Kiritsugu knew was certain to befall Archibald. Here's another way to look at it. There are two things Kiritsugu agrees to: a) Kiritsugu pledges not harm Archibald and fiancee. b) Kiritsugu pledges not to intend Archibald and fiancee to come to harm. According to you, these both mean the same thing: Kiritsugu will not personally harm Archibald/fiancee. But if that's true, why have the second pledge? It must have a different meaning than the first. *Moreover, since Kiritsugu is the one who wrote the contract, under the common law doctrine of contra proferentem, any ambiguous term in the contract would be construed against him. Quote:
It's true that nothing happened to Kiritsugu after Archibald's death, but that's hardly evidence of anything. It's a mistake. Writers are not perfect. I'm sure if Rider called Saber "Foil" one time some apologist would defend it as intentional, but it would clearly be a mistake. Same thing here. |
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2012-04-21, 15:16 | Link #53 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Oh Lancer that was so tragic to see what happened to him. He was one of my favorites too.
And I was seriously all hating on Kiritsugu until he spoke about why he does things the way he does and then I was sort of agreeing with him....but why does it have to be Lancer? I wanted to see that noble battle between Lancer & Saber.
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2012-04-21, 15:19 | Link #54 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Kiritsugu follow the exact wording on his contract. Whether he violated the spirit of the contract doesn't matter as long he didn't violate the wording of it.
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2012-04-21, 15:22 | Link #55 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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The spell has the only 1 condition: Kiritsugu cannot harm himself Kayneth and his entourage. It would be another matter if the condition was "Kiritsugu has to protect Kayneth at all cost". Quote:
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It is a curse that would OUTRIGHT prevents Kiritsugu to harm them, therefore, he CANNOT do anything for real. It isn't a "if you fail to do that, punishment time", that's not the way it works and that's the reason why Kayneth could seal the deal, because there is NO magus that can go against a self restriction curse of this caliber. Even if Kiritsugu wished to do so, the spell would make him unable to points a gun against Kayneth and shoot: the spell is already in effect. From that very moment, Kiritsugu himself cannot harm Kayneth and -he- alone.
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2012-04-21, 15:24 | Link #56 | |
Six Shooter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Age: 43
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I've admitted above that Kiritsugu was not "punished," and its true he was allowed to stand by and watch it happen. You can think that this works out somehow, but if you're willing to break the 4th wall, the simplest explanation is that the writers didn't carefully consider the situation they were creating. BTW - Under your intepretation Kiritsugu could just shoot them himself, since he himself didn't kill them, the bullets did, he just pulled the trigger. No difference between that and telling Maya to pull the trigger herself. |
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2012-04-21, 15:30 | Link #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Well the thing with contracts even in real ones people try to get around them all the time with wording. That is why you put every possible scenario in the contract.
Morally did Kiritsugu cheat the contract well I would say yes. But the contract isn't concerned with morals and what is right but with wording. It doesn't mention that Kiritsugu cannot intend to harm Kayneth because someone else would do his dirty work. The only thing the contract said is Kiritsugu cannot himself harm Kayneth. Hence the contract was not broken, even if it does seem unfair.
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2012-04-21, 16:06 | Link #59 |
Senior Member
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1) Kiritsugu couldn't harm Kayneth because the contract said that only Kiritsugu couldn't harm him.
2) Maya, on the other hand, wasn't mentioned anywhere on the contract and therefore can act freely. 3) Maya kills Kayneth and company on orders from Kiritsugu. So, in summary, Kiritsugu never violated the contract. At least, that's my interpretation of what happened.
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2012-04-21, 16:13 | Link #60 |
Still Alive
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere far far away
Age: 31
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Well, that was just..........cold(in a good way). My mouth just dropped after seeing Sola's arm cut so nonchalantly. I mean WTF, Maiya just came from behind sliced off Sola's arm like it was her birthday cake.
Kiritsugu.............I like cold, calculating guys who won't think twice before burying bullets in someone's head but what I don't like are cheap tricks. Actually I didn't care much about Kayneth to feel anything for him, but Lancer deserved better. Even though I agree with most of what Kiritsugu said, I'm still on Saber's side. I like her too much to against her(openly anyway) I think this the third straight episode that I have given 10 rating
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