Wotaku ni Koi wa Muzukashii

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Seriously there needs to be a national campaign Japan urging their young people to f-k.

They are trying, but the problem is which the "young generation" is focusing all that "hormones to 2d anime waifus instead of real girls

[ArrowSmith]

Japan can blame itself for creating 2d anime waifus for their own extinction then.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

...I thought he was going to kiss her. She thought he was going to kiss her. What possessed him not to?

Originally Posted by Kanon

Damnit Hirotaka. Why didn't you kiss her?!

Perhaps he had a last-second flashback that reminded him of what Narumi did the last time he kissed her. Can't says I blame him for changing his mind.

On another note, the episode seemed rushed, or perhaps just went by fast, although it was a pretty accurate depiction of the source material (which lasted four chapters).

And still no signs of Narumi having romantic feelings for Hirotaka. I doubt this slower-than-snail's-pace is Narumi's normal modus operandi as a girlfriend. If she actually saw Hirotaka as boyfriend material, like she does Kabakura, I'm sure we'd be seeing a completely different, more aggressive and flirtatious side of her character.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

well when you have a country with low birth rate and low marriages, and more and more peoples "liking to be a loner", because the japanese "couple life" is too hard and is better being "alone" them you can't fault them too much, indeed this is really a problem in japan, which more and more peoples are believing which "life is work and anime/manga/novel/2dgirls/bl(just kidding in the anime/blalblalb but is pretty much something like that being more safe about not have to worry about someone else them yourself).

Just adding that each couple has yours characteristics, in works like Gantz, Gigant, Nozoki Ana and Scum Wish, sex is treated in a casual way and without any pressure, do not generalize the Japanese again as if they were all strangers.

And as an additional note, Germany has a birth rate equal to or less than Japan, and what's your excuse for that?

[Wandering Soul]

Seriously, Hirotaka? That was the perfect opportunity to go in for an actual kiss.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX 2.o

Just adding that each couple has yours characteristics, in works like Gantz, Gigant, Nozoki Ana and Scum Wish, sex is treated in a casual way and without any pressure, do not generalize the Japanese again as if they were all strangers.

And as an additional note, Germany has a birth rate equal to or less than Japan, and what's your excuse for that?

i'm talking about the "otakus" which are the ones which that issue and the fact which they are very shy and bad with relationships, even nozoki ana the mc was really shy and was more about the girls being "lewd" or wanting having sex with a guy.

Well i'm not interested in germany or never wanted to learn anything about them, then i really don't know anything about it, i'm talking about what i do know and see, not about i don't know.

And ofcourse not everyone is like that, you still have many "non shy young peoples" but the problem in japan so far is which that "peoples" specially males" are going to extinction, since being "virge" and sexless is a thing become really strong in japan and i know which this happening in all the world, but again i'm talking direct to a place which is the focus of the show and we have take i account "the size of country" compared with others, then any trouble which happen around the world does have much more impact in small countries like japan, like the suicide rates, while japan still like 20 or something like that in the suicide rank around the world and looking to "the whole world" this number don't look too big or troublesome for japan it is really big and troublesome, that is why they are trying to find ways to dimish it, because many impacts in japan can be "big" for a "small country".

the low birt rates.
low interest in relationships
more "sexless peoples (specially in males)
and also another new issue which is "too young peoples starting to work (around 12+)
too much workaholic mind set
too high life expensives for "family"
toxic workplaces borderlining slavery but a one where actually part of the fault is in the peoples not just the company cuz the peoples are brainwashed from family to like that.

that are some of the things which lead to situations like narume and hirotaka, where you have 2 peoples having issues about "relationship", which one being too shy and another too childshi and unable to find a proper partner because she was 'afraid of exposing her trueself to others.

[Norn]

Hirotaka threw me for a loop! But I'm glad that they've found their rhythm.

[Marcus H.]

Man, I don't know how to feel about this episode. On one hand, more moments between the two are always welcome, but the bamboozle by Narumi wasn't what frustrated me; it's the fact that people have to exert 150% to become 50% of their whole persona. Fortunately, it does seem like the story was aware of this and showed us how their interactions improved when they were able to talk about the stuff they like.

Also, I do agree with Koyanagi. Romantic relationships cannot be rushed and couples run at their own pace. My only worry is that their molasses pace might hurt their development. They have to make some clearer progress and draw the lines, or else they might find themselves wondering about whether their journey is that of romance or of mere friendship.

EDIT: By the way, is Hirotaka's piercing wound closing up a symbol of him finally moving on from the heartbreak of his teenage self?

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

i'm talking about the "otakus" which are the ones which that issue and the fact which they are very shy and bad with relationships, even nozoki ana the mc was really shy and was more about the girls being "lewd" or wanting having sex with a guy.

Well i'm not interested in germany or never wanted to learn anything about them, then i really don't know anything about it, i'm talking about what i do know and see, not about i don't know.

And ofcourse not everyone is like that, you still have many "non shy young peoples" but the problem in japan so far is which that "peoples" specially males" are going to extinction, since being "virge" and sexless is a thing become really strong in japan and i know which this happening in all the world, but again i'm talking direct to a place which is the focus of the show and we have take i account "the size of country" compared with others, then any trouble which happen around the world does have much more impact in small countries like japan, like the suicide rates, while japan still like 20 or something like that in the suicide rank around the world and looking to "the whole world" this number don't look too big or troublesome for japan it is really big and troublesome, that is why they are trying to find ways to dimish it, because many impacts in japan can be "big" for a "small country".

the low birt rates.
low interest in relationships
more "sexless peoples (specially in males)
and also another new issue which is "too young peoples starting to work (around 12+)
too much workaholic mind set
too high life expensives for "family"
toxic workplaces borderlining slavery but a one where actually part of the fault is in the peoples not just the company cuz the peoples are brainwashed from family to like that.

that are some of the things which lead to situations like narume and hirotaka, where you have 2 peoples having issues about "relationship", which one being too shy and another too childshi and unable to find a proper partner because she was 'afraid of exposing her trueself to others.

all the nations of the world have nerds or people not interested in sex, this is not something exclusive from Japan, even Putin himself said that the Europeans are dying because less and less children are being born. But what you said earlier was about Japanese society in general, generalizing relationships between them as if all Japanese relationships were the same, and reality is not always well described in manga.

For example, in a recent interview with Japanese women, 31% admitted that they betrayed their boyfriend, is this the general idea Western readers have about Japanese women? I at least always read that they are considered pure, naive and faithful here in the west.

Just like the way the Japanese man sees Japanese women today, as many call them cold, materialistic and insensitive.

link on the survey: https://japantoday.com/category/feat...hey-got-caught

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX 2.o

all the nations of the world have nerds or people not interested in sex, this is not something exclusive from Japan, even Putin himself said that the Europeans are dying because less and less children are being born. But what you said earlier was about Japanese society in general, generalizing relationships between them as if all Japanese relationships were the same, and reality is not always well described in manga.

For example, in a recent interview with Japanese women, 31% admitted that they betrayed their boyfriend, is this the general idea Western readers have about Japanese women? I at least always read that they are considered pure, naive and faithful here in the west.

Just like the way the Japanese man sees Japanese women today, as many call them cold, materialistic and insensitive.

link on the survey: https://japantoday.com/category/feat...hey-got-caught

because while it not was 100% it was the "most common" issue.

about the cheating, it's not exclusive to girls but the males too, i already saw some youtubers talking about it. cheating in japan due to the "japanese nature of sexless relationships and "the male come too later to home due to over work lead to them cheat and "be fine most of the times", because the guy also ending cheating at work, because he "dont have time to have sex at home".

Another issue is which they also stop to have sex after the first or second kid born.

like i told while the low birth is not exclusive to japan it affect japan in a really terrible way due to they small size and the fact which they are "getting old", the japanese life span grow a lot like easy passing the 80+, then they are running to a point where they will be a "old population".

well here some good sources to learn about japan at last in youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcI...RO5qY5f9buahCQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2-...124iN6jiym4fOw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn7...LEBXK9I4W5dGdA

they have many interviews and while it no represent 100% of peoples it does give a "general idea" of how japan works and all they issues.

Like i told since i'm only interested in japan i really don't know nothing about "europe" and maybe some knowledge over others places like USA which are more easy to know, but overal normally i only go after info for japan and USA.

And to be clear whenever i talk about something it's not like i'm say which 100% of peoples are like that bug in "general" that is something "common" to see in japan more than others places or something which can be worst when comparing japan with others places, it's not a 100% of every japanese is like that but a good ammount and many times "majority are like that.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

By the way, is Hirotaka's piercing wound closing up a symbol of him finally moving on from the heartbreak of his teenage self?

Yes, I believe that's the intended meaning. A part of Hirotaka has found closure.

This is the critical turning point in the story, with a few important things established:

* Narumi is a loyal partner. She wouldn't flirt with any other guy, even if she may find him more physically attractive or manly than Hirotaka.

* Narumi is much more perceptive than some would give her credit for. I thoroughly enjoyed how the issue of ear piercings was first introduced several episodes ago, and then gradually built up to this moment. Narumi wanted to give something meaningful to Hirotaka, and after having observed him for the past several months, she decided, significantly, to give him a pair of earrings as a present. It's her first romantic gift to him, in response to Hirotaka's first major step in pushing forward their relationship with their first "real" date.

* More importantly — and this is a point many seem to have missed — Narumi bought a matching pair of earrings for herself. Given her reaction to Kabakura and Koyanagi's matching necklaces, we know that Narumi is a romantic at heart. The "couple earrings" that she got for Hirotaka and herself is the surest sign yet of her increasing confidence in their relationship. He's not just a childhood friend or best otaku buddy any more, but also someone special to her; special enough for her to feel comfortable in sharing something that's a clear symbol of their status as a romantic couple.

* Hirotaka has been coping with low self-esteem for a very long time. This is not apparent to anyone, because he usually hides it well. And I imagine many fans of the series can relate very closely to this. That scene of him feeling like a child, a stunted adolescent in comparison to Narumi hits hard.

* This is a story about "love being hard for otaku". At the beginning, it seemed that Hirotaka was comfortable in his own skin. He didn't seem to care what others thought about his gaming hobby, and he cared even less that others perceived him to be an uninteresting recluse. He thoroughly enjoys being who he is, and he wouldn't allow outside perception to affect him. That's in fact quite admirable. But we now know for certain that he also wants to share his life and his interests. The problem is, though, who would want to share her life with someone like him?

* That's the crux of the entire story! Opposites may attract but, in the end, it's much more normal for couples to bond through shared hobbies and interests. And that's what Hirotaka and Narumi are. In so many ways, they are perfect for each other. But, at the same time, they have to get over social norms and social expectations of what a romantic relationship is supposed to be, just like how they also have to get over the social disapproval of otaku hobbies. Koyanagi's advice rings especially true: It doesn't matter what others think; it only matters that Hirotaka and Narumi are moving at a pace that they themselves are comfortable with.


All in all, it's a great episode. It's a high point in the story and I'm rooting for Hirotaka x Narumi.

[HandofFate]

loving the effort the characters are putting into the relationship in the ways they know how.

not sure what the penalty is for, for when Hiro went like "I understand" or when both went "okay" or something.
Was it in otaku forum slang

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Yes, I believe that's the intended meaning. A part of Hirotaka has found closure.

This is the critical turning point in the story, with a few important things established:

* Narumi is a loyal partner. She wouldn't flirt with any other guy, even if she may find him more physically attractive or manly than Hirotaka.

* Narumi is much more perceptive than some would give her credit for. I thoroughly enjoyed how the issue of ear piercings was first introduced several episodes ago, and then gradually built up to this moment. Narumi wanted to give something meaningful to Hirotaka, and after having observed him for the past several months, she decided, significantly, to give him a pair of earrings as a present. It's her first romantic gift to him, in response to Hirotaka's first major step in pushing forward their relationship with their first "real" date.

* More importantly — and this is a point many seem to have missed — Narumi bought a matching pair of earrings for herself. Given her reaction to Kabakura and Koyanagi's matching necklaces, we know that Narumi is a romantic at heart. The "couple earrings" that she got for Hirotaka and herself is the surest sign yet of her increasing confidence in their relationship. He's not just a childhood friend or best otaku buddy any more, but also someone special to her; special enough for her to feel comfortable in sharing something that's a clear symbol of their status as a romantic couple.

* Hirotaka has been coping with low self-esteem for a very long time. This is not apparent to anyone, because he usually hides it well. And I imagine many fans of the series can relate very closely to this. That scene of him feeling like a child, a stunted adolescent in comparison to Narumi hits hard.

* This is a story about "love being hard for otaku". At the beginning, it seemed that Hirotaka was comfortable in his own skin. He didn't seem to care what others thought about his gaming hobby, and he cared even less that others perceived him to be an uninteresting recluse. He thoroughly enjoys being who he is, and he wouldn't allow outside perception to affect him. That's in fact quite admirable. But we now know for certain that he also wants to share his life and his interests. The problem is, though, who would want to share her life with someone like him?

* That's the crux of the entire story! Opposites may attract but, in the end, it's much more normal for couples to bond through shared hobbies and interests. And that's what Hirotaka and Narumi are. In so many ways, they are perfect for each other. But, at the same time, they have to get over social norms and social expectations of what a romantic relationship is supposed to be, just like how they also have to get over the social disapproval of otaku hobbies. Koyanagi's advice rings especially true: It doesn't matter what others think; it only matters that Hirotaka and Narumi are moving at a pace that they themselves are comfortable with.


All in all, it's a great episode. It's a high point in the story and I'm rooting for Hirotaka x Narumi.

wow well said, very good sumary about them i really do agree with you, the problem is which we "outsiders" and more like western or western likes, are not used to that sort of 'relationship" and not too good with that slow pace and in many cases see they advances as "0" or opposite and A or B don't like/love the other because this is not "how we used to see "love".

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

because while it not was 100% it was the "most common" issue.

about the cheating, it's not exclusive to girls but the males too, i already saw some youtubers talking about it. cheating in japan due to the "japanese nature of sexless relationships and "the male come too later to home due to over work lead to them cheat and "be fine most of the times", because the guy also ending cheating at work, because he "dont have time to have sex at home".

Another issue is which they also stop to have sex after the first or second kid born.

like i told while the low birth is not exclusive to japan it affect japan in a really terrible way due to they small size and the fact which they are "getting old", the japanese life span grow a lot like easy passing the 80+, then they are running to a point where they will be a "old population".

well here some good sources to learn about japan at last in youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcI...RO5qY5f9buahCQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2-...124iN6jiym4fOw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn7...LEBXK9I4W5dGdA

they have many interviews and while it no represent 100% of peoples it does give a "general idea" of how japan works and all they issues.

Like i told since i'm only interested in japan i really don't know nothing about "europe" and maybe some knowledge over others places like USA which are more easy to know, but overal normally i only go after info for japan and USA.

And to be clear whenever i talk about something it's not like i'm say which 100% of peoples are like that bug in "general" that is something "common" to see in japan more than others places or something which can be worst when comparing japan with others places, it's not a 100% of every japanese is like that but a good ammount and many times "majority are like that.

Really? Youtube?

As a Brazilian brother, you should know how this source is imprecise and how Brazilian youtubers misrepresent their own people and how there are so many fake news scattered in this media. I would prefer that you have some good news website.

But honestly, just anyone who lives there knows how the country really works, I just started this discussion because you started to generalize relationships in manga as if it was a general rule that Japanese could only have sex or even kiss after months of holding hands, and so I decided show that this is not a rule and that there are several manga or anime that treat sex as something casual and without tension.

And yes, there are countries with a worse birth rate or the same level as the Japanese. I recommend studying a little about them.

[ArrowSmith]

What I don't understand is how can you be 25 and have ZERO interests outside your teenage hobby? I mean doesn't Hirotaka read the news or a non-fiction novel every now and then? I'm sorry but spending 100% of your free time on your teenage hobby is NOT NORMAL.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

* That's the crux of the entire story! Opposites may attract but, in the end, it's much more normal for couples to bond through shared hobbies and interests. And that's what Hirotaka and Narumi are. In so many ways, they are perfect for each other. But, at the same time, they have to get over social norms and social expectations of what a romantic relationship is supposed to be, just like how they also have to get over the social disapproval of otaku hobbies. Koyanagi's advice rings especially true: It doesn't matter what others think; it only matters that Hirotaka and Narumi are moving at a pace that they themselves are comfortable with.

I agree with everything else you said, but I think on Narumi's side, she gave up on Hirotaka following social norms long ago. Her problem is what she thinks Hirotaka's expectations are. She's the type to try to conform to her boyfriend (to the point of hiding her otaku-ness).

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX 2.o

Really? Youtube?

As a Brazilian brother, you should know how this source is imprecise and how Brazilian youtubers misrepresent their own people and how there are so many fake news scattered in this media. I would prefer that you have some good news website.

But honestly, just anyone who lives there knows how the country really works, I just started this discussion because you started to generalize relationships in manga as if it was a general rule that Japanese could only have sex or even kiss after months of holding hands, and so I decided show that this is not a rule and that there are several manga or anime that treat sex as something casual and without tension.

And yes, there are countries with a worse birth rate or the same level as the Japanese. I recommend studying a little about them.

it's better just disagree ok, because between you talk and japaneses talking and showing some sources like yuta do on they researchs, i prefer them, go back again watch and if they are not enough i also read some news.

and no thanks i'm not really interested in the whole world only places where i can find things which i like, like USA cartoons and series and animes at japan.

and again for the last time we are talking about "japan" not about the world then you can please stop bring that "nonsense" world when we are talking about a anime about japanese couples please??? or best let's just drop all and disagree ok.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I agree with everything else you said, but I think on Narumi's side, she gave up on Hirotaka following social norms long ago. Her problem is what she thinks Hirotaka's expectations are. She's the type to try to conform to her boyfriend (to the point of hiding her otaku-ness).

For what i get she do that more because normally what most of her previous relationships showed to her which if she don't "dance as the they music" shr will fail with the guys, then like many do she try to act like they are expecating for her and not being a otaku, but at one point she is unable to keep hidden her skeleton inside the closer and they aways ending find about she being otaku and droppimg her, she was trying in the wrong way find a love but is really not that easy try to find love when most of the peoples around you or "the so called norms" don't like your life style and see it with prejudice.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

What I don't understand is how can you be 25 and have ZERO interests outside your teenage hobby? I mean doesn't Hirotaka read the news or a non-fiction novel every now and then? I'm sorry but spending 100% of your free time on your teenage hobby is NOT NORMAL.

I don't know. I've seen a lot of people these days who center their main interests and hobbies in the middle of everything in their lives. If anything, it is more prevalent because we have more choice and it's easier to create your own filter bubble.


In Hirotaka's case, it's also good to remember that he might not be as good in small talk as you would like him to be. There's people like that too. And then there's the possibility that Hirotaka's lack of interest in non otaku things surfaces in the form of him having some non otaku activities but not really caring enough to be able to start conversations with those.

[Kanon]

TinyRedLeaf, that was a truly excellent post. There were some things I had noticed, but others I had missed. Definitely a lot of development in that episode.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Norn

I don't know. I've seen a lot of people these days who center their main interests and hobbies in the middle of everything in their lives. If anything, it is more prevalent because we have more choice and it's easier to create your own filter bubble.


In Hirotaka's case, it's also good to remember that he might not be as good in small talk as you would like him to be. There's people like that too. And then there's the possibility that Hirotaka's lack of interest in non otaku things surfaces in the form of him having some non otaku activities but not really caring enough to be able to start conversations with those.

I think it's a real condemnation of the Japanese education system. No doubt Hirotaka studied a lot of subjects at school like history, literature, mathematics. But nothing appealed to him but games.