[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

They watched the human history of EP3 until the year of 3.598 AD, when a meteor destroyed earth. Then EP4 starts

Spoiler for up to ep4 translated:

Yes that's what i think. Everytime a an episode ends a new kakera materializes based on the outcome of that episode. A Kakera materializes in both space and time, and therefore the future until the end of the universe (for that kakera) is already set. I think something like this:


Original Kakera------------------ Loop |----------------------------------------- <- Kakera after ep1
-----------------------------|--------|----------------------------------------- <- kakera after ep2
--------------------------------------|----------------------------------------- <- kakera after ep3
--------------------------------------|----------------------------------------- <- kakera after ep4

However only those who can look in the future can know the future of a certain kakera, like Bernkastel, for example. At the time a new Kakera is formed, Bern can automatically see the whole thing. So she took her new chess piece from the newly formed kakera from ep3, and she took her at the time that piece became a "witch".

As for why Mammon remembers the "future" i still stick with the idea that its' Gretel's perspective that is influencing the stake.

[izmosmolnar]

I know I'm definitely overanalyzing it , it's kinda my obsession to seek those things wich doesn't make too much sense. That's why I warned everyone not to take it the wrong way, and just ignore it if anyone is not interested in it.
I was just trying to point out, that there are quite a few contradictions in ep4, which one cannot really logically explain, unless we heavily complement those things using our imagination.

edit:

Spoiler for I'm not trying to be finicky or anything, but my point isn't how the 2 stake sisters are "killed"/gravely injured by Kyrie and Rudolf and revived.:

My inability to understand is that Eva-Beatrice supposedly (provided it's not a hoax of course) completely erased the 2 sisters existence by using them as a vessel to summon the siesta sisters.
After that scene later the Siestas also appeared in the Metaworld so they should be real. However if I can believe Mammon's opinion that she indeed has credible memories of the time when she and her sisters (including those two who aren't supposed to exist) had playing with Ange, I can conclude (unless I go with the "influence" theory) that both the Siesta sisters, and both all 7 sisters exists at the same time. But that shouldn't be the case if we can believe Eva-Beatrice's and Lucifer's scene in ep3 (the scene where the siestas were summoned by using the 2 sisters "corpse"). My problem is not that they died, but how they were used as an ingredient, ergo they shouldn't be brought back alive, since they are kinda "inside" the Siestas (who are also real). I may even probably interpret it the wrong way.

[WhiteFrost]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.

I'm following what you are saying, but there is still the possibility that she simply learned it from books, there has to be a trigger as you say but even that can still be really simple.
This has nothing to do with Umineko, but when I was a child I happened to discover a few books in my mothers bookshelf. A lot of them came from my aunties when they and my mother still lived together. Those books were books about magic and that was enough to trigger my interest for many years. One of my auts still call herself a "witch" and affectionally calls me the Witch of April.
A mentor is not really necessary, you are able to learn quite a lot by yourself, and since Mariah seems to have some light kind of rainman-syndrome it is not that impossible. And about that black magic part, I know from personal experience that it actually is pretty easy to confuse some magic from another, especially if you're on your own.

[Kitsu]

But you seem to forget that there were drawing from another person inside her book, also a message at the end of her book which says that a person which calls herself Beatrice acknowledges her as a witch. I don't think she did that on her own. Also I don't think that she has "imaginary friends" which could be the "Beatrice" and "Virgillia" we saw. It's more like she alters things to her liking. And like this her toys become friends and maybe Kumasawa becomes "Virgillia" only Beatrice confuses me.

[theacefrehley]

Well,
From where did you take Eva-b used them as vessels or ingredients?
They turned into dust and Eva just invoked the siestas from thin air.
If I remember well...

[Jan-Poo]

I also don't remember the vessel and ingredient thing °°, that wouldn't be the first time i forget something... however it looks that even ace doesn't remember that.

and since Mariah seems to have some light kind of rainman-syndrome

Uhm i don't think maria suffers from light form of autism, if that's what you imply. She does have some difficulties to make friends, but the very fact she clearly understands the emotions of other people disprove this theory. She doesn't seem to have problems relating to her cousins, and more importantly she tries to understand her mother's viewpoint and tries to justify her actions. Autism could explain tantrums and compulsive behaviors but doesn't explain delusions and hallucinations.

I think Maria's case is closer to a paranoid-type schizophrenia.

[Rias]

The "vessel" of the siesta sisters probably has nothing to do with the stakes; that is they are not the same thing. The identity of the vessel has been speculated: you can probably pick that up from the first half of ep4 if you read really carefully. If not, it should be more appearant near midgame and even more by looking at the TIPS at the end.

Second thing that might take away some of the confusion is that, the events of 1998 in ep4 are very likely to be a continuation of the events from the hiddden tea party of ep3. That is, ep4 has 3 "parts". Before 1986 (history), Rokkenjima 1986 (ep4), and 1998 (contuine from ep3).

Spoiler:

This claim is based on the comment from Ryukishi07 about ep3: that it's is a irregular world where Rule-Y wasn't activated (similar to Watanagashi-hen) While it is possible, it's unlikely that a world where Eva (or perhaps someone else?) survived and gave all the assests to Ange in 1998 to happen again right after another.

Third thing: don't stress over ep4's "fantasy" scenes too much. Many scenes in the first half are really just Maria/Ange's delusions.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

The "vessel" of the siesta sisters probably has nothing to do with the stakes; that is they are not the same thing. The identity of the vessel has been speculated: you can probably pick that up from the first half of ep4 if you read really carefully. If not, it should be more appearant near midgame and even more by looking at the TIPS at the end.

Second thing that might take away some of the confusion is that, the events of 1998 in ep4 are very likely to be a continuation of the events from the hiddden tea party of ep3. That is, ep4 has 3 "parts". Before 1986 (history), Rokkenjima 1986 (ep4), and 1998 (contuine from ep3).

Spoiler:

This claim is based on the comment from Ryukishi07 about ep3: that it's is a irregular world where Rule-Y wasn't activated (similar to Watanagashi-hen) While it is possible, it's unlikely that a world where Eva (or perhaps someone else?) survived and gave all the assests to Ange in 1998 to happen again right after another.

Third thing: don't stress over ep4's "fantasy" scenes too much. Many scenes in the first half are really just Maria/Ange's delusions.

However their identity is a bit ambiguous
While it is quite obvious the connection with the bunnies, there's the winchester stuff that also seems to link to the siestas...

[Jan-Poo]

maybe that winchester connection is just mumbo jumbo... i mean they are also supposed to be at the service of arthur pendragon or something... what's the connection between a winchester and a knight of the round?

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for don't read if you are not interested in another pointless debate:

Well as I said I can't read any Japanese so here's the english version (I hope that's not prohibited or anything, but I wanted to be accurate rather than summarize some important parts):

Spoiler for gamequote:

eva-b: "There's no point unless I have new furniture, suitable for me. I acted out of obligation... But I've hated old things from the very beginning."
As she said that, she looked down at Belphegor's remains which had already finished turning into a pile of gold dust, with disgust.
Rud: "I don't know what you're talking about. Be a good girl and put your hands up."
Then the witch obediently raised her hands. But instead of raising her hands because a gun was being pointed at her, it looked more like she was a conductor facing an orchestra, waving her conductor's baton.
eva-b: Come, arise, furniture suitable for me...!! Not that cheap furniture, much stronger ones! Cruel ones!!! hahaha
Kyrie: Stop this bizarre act...! I'll pull the trigger
*Butterflies flying*
In response to the witch's call, the hall was once again buried with the color of gold. As the brilliantly radiant gold butterflies danced, it felt as though they were being sucked into an ocean of gold leaf. Ronove was shocked at that upsurge in magic power... That was because it far surpassed that of his former master. As their eyes were dazzled amidst the golden flash, a gunshot could be heard. Either Rudolf or Kyrie had fired a round.
... Then, after the golden flash, had subsided, the witch, who was at least cool and composed, could be seen.
The bullet? Hadn't Kyrie fired it into her? But the witch had not been hit anywhere on her body. There it is... The bulled had been fastened in midair right in front of the witch's chest.
Ronove: "A... a bullet-proof barrier...." A barrier which took even the predecessor a significant amount of preparation had, in an instant... Ronove's face was still twisted in shock. And the surprise did not stop there.
*again butterflies*
The group of gold butterflies had created two humanoid forms. It was furniture summoning. The butterflies peeled off and flew away, and beneath them, furniture in the shape of girls showed themselves.
Ronove: "... the Siesta Sisters corps...even the predecessor... wasn't able to summon them on a moment's notice, the corps in memory of pendragon, and so easily...
*introductions, Lucifer appears, shooting snakes, Rudolf-Kyries dies, Beato comes to argue, Siestas threatening her to go, B. goes to Metaworld, Virgilia comes and"acts" like she is scolding her, Eva-b keeps repeating the killing, a wild Hideyoshi appears ( ), he slaps her, a floating gun kills him*

---
I may be overassuming (me? never... ), but at the time she casts her spell, she fixed her gaze on Sloth's remains. Immediately the gunshot goes, so it's not entirely possible to follow what's happening with the golden dust which once Sloth had been. After the gunshot settled the 2 girls appears. I tend to believe that eva-Beatrice was concentrating on the golden Dust the entire time, and not conjured them girls from the thin air, with close to no experience in spellcasting and without any materialistic sacrifice. There is no mention of the dust after that, so it's debatable what happened with it. My guess is that she used it as a catalyst to summon the siestas.
I mean if we can believe when Ronove first appeared in the story, Beato said something like how many expensive reasources, sacrifices and magical energy she had to gather and sacrifice, in order to summon Johnny Depp.
If she tells the true, I can't imagine how can Eva-B (with Level 1 magical experience) summon something so powerful like the S sisters (judging by Ronove's reaction they may be even stronger than him, ergo the sacrifice should be higher too in that case).
Just look at it from that angle here: If someone really has to sacrifice some stuff (provided Beato was telling the truth) to bring such powerful magical creatures like Ronove or the Siesta neechans in that world, than the only worthy price for the Siesta sister's summon I can consider, is the possibility that 2 of the 7 sin sisters remains irreversibly dead. Kinda like sacrificing them to help summon the more powerful girls.
If not what materials did she sacrificed? Or was Beato lying about that? (for what reason other than confusing such people like me? )

It's debatable yes, for the main reason because Leviathan died upstairs by Kyrie, so we can't even guess what happened with her remains. However as Eva-B is performing magic it sounds quite stupid, that she is required to concentrate on Leviathan's remains with her own two eyes, in order to "sacrifice" it. (I doubt she could watch/concentrate on two things simultanously anyway. Just because she is a witch, she still only have a pair of eyeballs ) . Not to mention if she didn't needed the 2 dead girls as a Catalyst, why didn't she summoned three or four Siestas instead (or a whole army even)?

But of course like Ange learned from Okonogi in ep4, it's up to the viewers beliefs what she considers the truth.

[theacefrehley]

A line from Eva-b:

「………そりゃあ、先代さまの使い古しの家具じゃ無理で当然ね。
……私には私に相応しい、新しい家具じゃないと駄目よ。
私、義理で使ったけど。
……元々、お古は嫌いなの。」　

It's obvious it'd be impossible with the worn out furniture from my predecessor
I must have new furniture suitable for me
I used them (stakes) out of duty, though.
From the beginning, I didn't want used stuff

Eva-b was using the stakes because there was a script to follow (the riddle of the portrait...)

To me Eva-b was only looking down at belphegor remains with disgust for her incompetence... To assume this ingredient thing... it's up to you...

As for the number of siestas, just read the TIPS about them...

Well
You're free to suppose what you want... But, like that, it only make things harder to match...

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

A line from Eva-b:

「………そりゃあ、先代さまの使い古しの家具じゃ無理で当然ね。
……私には私に相応しい、新しい家具じゃないと駄目よ。
私、義理で使ったけど。
……元々、お古は嫌いなの。」　

It's obvious it'd be impossible with the worn out furniture from my predecessor
I must have new furniture suitable for me
I used them (stakes) out of duty, though.
From the beginning, I didn't want used stuff

Eva-b was using the stakes because there was a script to follow (the riddle of the portrait...)

To me Eva-b was only looking down at belphegor remains with disgust for her incompetence... To assume this ingredient thing... it's up to you...

As for the number of siestas, just read the TIPS about them...

Well
You're free to suppose what you want... But, like that, it only make things harder to match...

Yeah that's certainly true, but if I try to explain it other ways it makes even less sense to me (or it causes me to doubt earlier informations).
Well I certainly hope the answer arcs are going to have a logical explaination on all of these semi-irrevelant contradictions (depends on viewpoint of course).

[WhiteFrost]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I also don't remember the vessel and ingredient thing °°, that wouldn't be the first time i forget something... however it looks that even ace doesn't remember that.



Uhm i don't think maria suffers from light form of autism, if that's what you imply. She does have some difficulties to make friends, but the very fact she clearly understands the emotions of other people disprove this theory. She doesn't seem to have problems relating to her cousins, and more importantly she tries to understand her mother's viewpoint and tries to justify her actions. Autism could explain tantrums and compulsive behaviors but doesn't explain delusions and hallucinations.

I think Maria's case is closer to a paranoid-type schizophrenia.

Ah, sorry about the confusion. My comment was a bit irrelevant but I just felt like pointing it out, I did not mean to offend anyone. I apologise for the bad choice of words.

[Jan-Poo]

ah not a problem at all ^^ knowing the characteristics of psychological disorders is certainly not common knowledge °°;

[Kitsu]

Yeah, I also think that, since there are so many disorders that the time I first looked at them I always mixed them up xD especially personality disorders were hard to differ. I think even now I sometimes mix them up.
Also i think Maria isn't mentally ill in the beginning. The time she started talking to her toys and imagines that those are her friends was just a a normal reaction of lonely girl and no disorder. I think the traumatic experience in which Rosa destroyed those "friends" triggered the disorder.

[Hareoic]

Spoiler for Question about inconsistent recurring theme:

Beatrice says there can't be any magic without love, right? So where's the love when she (supposedly) has everybody on the island slaughtered in such brutal ways?

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for general, some higurashi spoiler too:

Fear the love of a witch! Ahem... i guess it all depends on the object of love and how one reacts to that love. For example Shion in Higurashi was driven by her love towards Satoshi, however look where that love led her to...

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for general, some higurashi spoiler too:

Fear the love of a witch! Ahem... i guess it all depends on the object of love and how one reacts to that love. For example Shion in Higurashi was driven by her love towards Satoshi, however look where that love led her to...

I see your point. I should have gotten that sooner

[Marion]

Spoiler for Love:

'Love' in the game is encompassed by all emotions. Happiness, Sadness, Fear, Anger, etc. Without this element of love you can't see magic nor lies from truth (the theme song guys, the theme song says it too :P) Also put it this way: Beatrice's 'love' is desire: She wants to be freed from being bound to Rokkenjima, so she needs to do this ritual to get out. Her desire makes magic!~ I'm pretty sure there's something about this once more later in episode 4, which basically says what I just said - only in a more sadder, sappy way :P

[izmosmolnar]

Just a short question about something not so important again.

Spoiler for up to patched ep4:

I was wondering about that at the first time I've played it.

How come the seagulls are present in episode 3 Rokkenjima docks (when Eva comes out finally with Hideyoshi), despite that it was lengthily explained in episode 1, how they are probably hiding from the approaching typhoon? However the typhoon comes in every scenario, so why are they there in episode 3?
It's unknown wether they were present in episode 2 as that scene was skipped entirely, and I have no idea if it's shown in ep4, because the current patch doesn't have the arriving scene translated yet (provided if it's in the game of course).
It kinda supports the theory you guys suggested around here somewhere, that Battler has some remote influence in the scenarios (the romances, the goatservants etc.), because he was missing them in ep1, discussed their absence a while with the cousins, and 2 ep later the seagulls aren't missing anymore.
Any thoughts?