Touma's Power: What can he block ?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

So with those complex calculations he didn't have enough to redirect the bullet coming of Amai Ao gun.

You misunderstand the point: it's not that he was making complex calculations*, but that the calculations he claims he was making are inconsistent with his own claims as to his powers.

Accelerator, even more than Touma, is the king of inconsistency in what he says he can do versus what happens,. Some of it is passable in terms of psychic limitations of conception, but mostly this is in the interest of story. For example, he tells Misaka that his 'default' setting is that everything is reflected: if that were true, he would suffocate because his lungs would repel outside oxygen and his stik isn't breathing.

*Which no amount of chemical enhancement can validate, really. Electrical syampses already are triggered by electricity, and you can't get faster than that.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.

Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.

The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.

The Mikoto railgun delimma isn't whether Touma can block it, it's whether it's a real railgun, real in the sense that it works exactly like an actual railgun. Since Touma can stop Mikoto's railgun, but can't stop solid projectiles solely launched by esper means (Accelerator I-beams), which is what a 'real' railgun slug would be, the conclusion to draw that if Touma can stop Mikoto rail gun slug BUT can not stop effective real railgun slug, then Mikoto railgun =/= real railgun for some reason or another.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.

It isn't possible. That really is the long and short of it. No matter the pseudo-scientific medical hax of 'boosting' the brains abilities with 'chemicals', the brain is not a latent supercomputer in wait. While the brain is great at intuitive logic and processes (like moving a body), mathematical calculations of such scale are strictly in the realm of computer reliability and speed. It's for the same reason it takes you longer to think the word 'one' than it does for a computer to count a thousand times; your brain isn't simply slower, is's a snail compared to a cheetah. No amount of boosting of a snail will make it a cheetah.

Originally Posted by Ice Block

I see. However, we should note that her ability involves the control of electromagnetic forces, thus involving strength and directional control of currents in intricate ways to form beautifully complex magnetic fields. How she does it is beyond everyone (as I stated above) -- we can only say she's a LVL5 because she's able to do such. Anyway, a few quick questions:

First stop: electromagnetism isn't a force, it's a field. The field can produce force (what you are refering), but the amount of force is derived from the field. As such, it's the field that matters.

Mikoto has, in the anime, always produced electricity and all such status from herself. She changes her potential to produce/sense/everything she does with electro-magnetism. She does not spontaniously create electricity away from her. As such, there are two ways for her to create a field: eminating from herself, or current through the sand. Neither of these allow control of a 'whip': a field from herself simply pushes/pulls the sand as a whole to or away from her based on strength and distance, and a field from a current through the sand has similar problems in addition to the worries of a constant current (which non-wires are poor for) and the limit of any current for fear of fulgurite.


A 'she can do it because she can do it' only applies in the sense for story purposes, or her pyschic powers aren't what they think they are, so long as there isn't science to back it up. What it really means is that she's more powerful than she thinks she is (or doesn't know enough to realize what she's doing is impossible).

• Fulgurites are formed when molten matter (usually from sand particles, silica etc.) on a conductive surface is supercooled (from thousands of ^oC to melting point and below in less than a second). Given this scenario, supercooling would only occur when the iron sword-whip contacts with IB. However, does glass formation still occur when only pure iron is present in your system?

Unlikely; still possible, but much higher without the sand. If you take out sand and leave only iron, then that won't do so until it reaches the appropriate levels.

The two biggest problems with current through the whip is conductivity and 'clumping'. Conductivity is by far the biggest: while iron is a conductor, iron sands are not; too many air gaps. What this means is a lot of loss as any current goes down; the field at the base of the whip will be much, much larger than what you get as you go farther. This doesn't just lead to the far ends of the 'whip' being unlikely to be able to hold together, but also that the near field is stronger than the far fields. Which quickly becomes the same problem as with a field from Mikoto herself; either the whip contracts into a clump as the near field draws more in, and the rest of the whip collapses for lack of current, or the near field pushes out the sands and you get more gaps and the farther current falls apart.



You just can't run current through iron sands and hope to make a wire route. It doesn't work that way.



This is how iron sands look under magnetic effect. You could not run a current through those sand with any hope of success. You can not hold an effective form.

• For the first scenario you presented... Let's say we have an electromagnet running along the core/center of the iron sword-whip. This is basically a current coiled around a more compact blob of iron dust. This however, will not account for the rapidly vibrating iron particles on the outer parts of the weapon... unless the electromagnet's core's particles are constantly being replaced and cycled throughout the system to prevent iron grain/dust particle fusion (maintaining individual particle weight)?

[/QUOTE]Constantly replacing a 'core' of a whip would require micro-kenisis. Which is something she can not do by her definition of powers. So it is moot, unless we accept that she's using powers she should not (by her list of skills) be able to do.

[velvet nightmare]

i always thought that the chain whip demonstrates her power similar to that of the magneto type

ie moving around magnetic fields to make things move, in our case move the fields around fast enough to make the sand vibrate?

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Mikoto has, in the anime, always produced electricity and all such status from herself.

Except when she hasn't. She called down lightning from the clouds on Touma more than once.

She and 10032 have to be able to manipulate Electromagnetic fields into intricate shapes at a distance to pull off a number of their stunts. Electrokinetic Telepathy being the most obvious, but the Ozone Death Technique as well as hacking electronic locks and ATM machines require it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

i always thought that the chain whip demonstrates her power similar to that of the magneto type

ie moving around magnetic fields to make things move, in our case move the fields around fast enough to make the sand vibrate?

It would, if fields worked like that. They don't, so it's really just pseudo-science justification for showy action. It's no more based in reality than unobtanium is a real alloy, giant robots can walk around (or roller blade), or any number of conventional fictional justifications for just about everything fiction does.


The anime can say it works like that, but it's really just (bad) fictional science.

[LastResolve]

i am pretty sure imagine breaker has more than that it was mentioned that you can lose your imagination
(when steil magnu's was talking to Aleister Crowley)

[velvet nightmare]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It would, if fields worked like that. They don't, so it's really just pseudo-science justification for showy action. It's no more based in reality than unobtanium is a real alloy, giant robots can walk around (or roller blade), or any number of conventional fictional justifications for just about everything fiction does.


The anime can say it works like that, but it's really just (bad) fictional science.

but then again we have to take into account the context of the series. there is 'magic' after all at the same time, it's also the same thing trying to explain instant teleportation which we are no where near close to coming close to scratching the surface of

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

but then again we have to take into account the context of the series. there is 'magic' after all at the same time, it's also the same thing trying to explain instant teleportation which we are no where near close to coming close to scratching the surface of

When you make an appeal to magic as justification, you've already abandoned the argument of whether something is (1) physically possible or not and (2) bound by consistent rules. And psychic powers in To Aru are very much claimed to be bound by consistent rules, hence the huge emphasis on science and not superstition in their field.

To Aru on a number of occasions separates 'magic' from psychic powers. Mikoto never claims, or is suggested, to use magic to make her iron sand whip/weapons. The only claim they make for her is that she can do it through electro-magnetic fields.

However, we already have a sufficient understanding of electromagnetic fields and the rules of their nature that confirms to us that we can't do that, that fields do not work in that manner.

That's science, and science we've already achieved. It's the same science To Aru claims to use as backing for what its powers can do, since the To Aru exception to physics is schrodinger's cat and nothing more.

You can accept what Mikoto does as rule of cool, but that's all you should accept it as. Not as a actual aplication of her claimed abilities.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by dahak

Except when she hasn't. She called down lightning from the clouds on Touma more than once.

She virtually always calls down lightning on herself, and leaves Touma to be hit by the blast zone. Lightning always focus on or from her, which is consistent with the point that she alters herself (in this clase, the potential difference between her and the sky, making lightning possible).

She and 10032 have to be able to manipulate Electromagnetic fields into intricate shapes at a distance to pull off a number of their stunts. Electrokinetic Telepathy being the most obvious, but the Ozone Death Technique as well as hacking electronic locks and ATM machines require it.

Electromagnetic fields don't do intricate fields, though. That's not how fields work. It's the entire problem of justifying those talents through manipulating electromagnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields doing distinct shapes is like, oh...

-Carving an exact copy Michaelangelo's David by throwing a stream of water at limestone, justified because of erosion

-Getting 100 yard football passes 100% despite full coverage because of manipulating wind

-Reliably hitting someone in the next town after batting a baseball, regardless of pitch or how they move, because you hit the ball really, really hard and well

[MeisterBabylon]

In this world, all those latter three examples are possible with ESP...

[hideki101]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Electromagnetic fields don't do intricate fields, though. That's not how fields work. It's the entire problem of justifying those talents through manipulating electromagnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields doing distinct shapes is like, oh...

-Carving an exact copy Michaelangelo's David by throwing a stream of water at limestone, justified because of erosion

-Getting 100 yard football passes 100% despite full coverage because of manipulating wind

-Reliably hitting someone in the next town after batting a baseball, regardless of pitch or how they move, because you hit the ball really, really hard and well

What if we're looking at this all backwards? Instead of moving electrons around to create desired electric fields, she uses electric fields to create movement in electrons. That way, she can make electric fields into distinct shapes due to it being her primary power: everything else just follows afterward.

EDIT: wait, nevermind, that's exactly what you were trying to argue.

The biggest problem I think you're having is that in the context of this show, the Schrodinger Cat experiment justifies everything that espers do. Basically to an esper, the cat is neither dead nor alive, but in the state he or she believes it to be. The AIM field makes it thus, and as such, if they believe that they can do something with their powers, then they can. (oversimplified, but you get the idea)

Also, each of those examples could theoretically happen, just that there are too many variables to reliably simulate to get a consistent answer. The physics of each scenario is possible, but not probable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

In this world, all those latter three examples are possible with ESP...

Originally Posted by hideki101

What if we're looking at this all backwards? Instead of moving electrons around to create desired electric fields, she uses electric fields to create movement in electrons. That way, she can make electric fields into distinct shapes due to it being her primary power: everything else just follows afterward.

EDIT: wait, nevermind, that's exactly what you were trying to argue.

The biggest problem I think you're having is that in the context of this show, the Schrodinger Cat experiment justifies everything that espers do. Basically to an esper, the cat is neither dead nor alive, but in the state he or she believes it to be. The AIM field makes it thus, and as such, if they believe that they can do something with their powers, then they can. (oversimplified, but you get the idea)

Oh, I recognize that Schrodinger Cat justifies everything. My point is that all their own justifications don't.

Chain whip works because Misaka thinks it will. It does not work because mumbo-jumbo about making shapes by manipulating magnetic fields.

I have a personal bet that a level 6 esper is going to be someone who has no effective limit on their powers. They abandon all conceptions of their limitations, and rely only on the Schrodinger Cat rule to make their will manifest. Levels 1 through 5 are about enforcing your will, through its hazy-defined limits, on reality, but Level 6 abandons those limits all together.

Also, each of those examples could theoretically happen, just that there are too many variables to reliably simulate to get a consistent answer. The physics of each scenario is possible, but not probable.

Very good catch: I left those like that to see if others would catch them. However, the probability in each case is effectively zero, because of those variables. Theoretical possibility and practical possibility are two different concepts.

Take the David piece. It's more than the water streaming that has to be accounted for, it's the mist, the spray, and even the vibrations the water puts into the statue, along with such things as water pressure, density, precision, and more. While water-carving a statue is possible, doing it from distance with masses of water without laboratory settings and absolute variable controls is not. If you toss a stream of water, you aren't going to get precision work.

Or the football throw. Tim Tebow, one of the best football quarterbacks alive, has a completion rate of just over 2/3rds and a range of upward 60 yards, IIRC. And footballs aren't known to be carried by wind: to get extra yardage, wind would have to push up with about 15 ounces of force (no small amount of wind), AND push in the correct direction, AND find its way to the receiver despite all attempts at blocking. You're going to need massive gusts, the kind that knock people over, to reliably get the distance, let alone direction.

This, too, does not happen.

Similar with a baseball. Record baseball hit is about 630 meters, not even .4 miles. Towns can be dozens of miles away. To reliably hit a target you can not see or hear on basis of human strength is not possible.


Theoretical possibilities aren't always practical possibilities. Is it theoretically possible that at this time tomorrow every insurgent in Afghanistan is going to throw down his gun for no real reason? Yes. Will it happen? No.

When theoretical possibilities never happen, we call it impossible. Probability is effectively zero. Others include...

-No one of one side getting hit, at all, in war, because everyone missed/bullets blown off course

-Accident-free days

-Perfect accuracy measurements* on first try for long lists of measurements

*Actually, this one is physically impossible due to the wave-nature of light, but anyone who's gone in lab and made measurements by hand/eye knows the experience.

[hideki101]

Ah, so that's where our definitions differ. My definition of impossible is restricted to things that can not happen. Take, for example, quantum tunneling. We know that it exists physically, there have been experiments done that show that a caged particle has a non-zero probability of appearing outside the corral, and it has happened. Scaled up, if I were to push against a wall, you, by your definition of impossible would say that it's impossible for me to spontaneously fall through the wall, whereas I would say that it is improbable that I would fall through the wall, but it's impossible for the wall to exert more force on me than I do on the wall (by Newton's third law). If some thing is physically possible, then by definition it is not impossible, regardless of how improbable it is.

More on topic, theoretically, Misaka could be using micro-scale eddy currents in each iron sand particle and controlling each particle of sand individually. I don't know, it's all theoretical. But the point is, she MUST use electricity to move the sand, due to the logic that:

1) Misaka's power is electrokinesis
2) it is generally accepted in-universe that there's only one power per person
3) she can move the iron sand

Therefore: she is using electricity to move the iron sand.

[LastResolve]

I have a personal bet that a level 6 esper is going to be someone who has no effective limit on their powers

that makes touma a level 6...

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by hideki101

Ah, so that's where our definitions differ. My definition of impossible is restricted to things that can not happen. Take, for example, quantum tunneling. We know that it exists physically, there have been experiments done that show that a caged particle has a non-zero probability of appearing outside the corral, and it has happened. Scaled up, if I were to push against a wall, you, by your definition of impossible would say that it's impossible for me to spontaneously fall through the wall, whereas I would say that it is improbable that I would fall through the wall, but it's impossible for the wall to exert more force on me than I do on the wall (by Newton's third law). If some thing is physically possible, then by definition it is not impossible, regardless of how improbable it is.

But no matter how many times you push against a wall, you as a person will not spontaneously fall through. One of the things about quantum is that while you can find minute (and I mean minute) differences, it always averages to what is expected. That's why you can use standard non-quantum equations for matters like chemistry and and physics.

As one chemist put it to me, "Quantum mechanics are perhaps the most revolutionary conceptual breakthrough for chemistry in living history. What does that mean for you? Not a thing."

Theoretical possibility and practical possibility are two different things. One isn't concerned with how to make something happen, for one thing.

I should also note that I was making an (unclear) distinction between physical impossibilities (which falls under using magnetic fields for a whip) and practical impossibilites (the 0 chance things).

More on topic, theoretically, Misaka could be using micro-scale eddy currents in each iron sand particle and controlling each particle of sand individually. I don't know, it's all theoretical. But the point is, she MUST use electricity to move the sand, due to the logic that:

See, when you try to justify it on that scale, you're actually hurting your case because of the magnitudes of calculations that would have to be done if she did it that way. One cup of sand has approximately 7692307.69 grains. Just one cup, and you already have to track and calculate 7 digits worth currents, field vectors, and currents to manage in real-time against any number of outside effects. Forget drugged up brain, a supercomputer would get stalled trying to do anything with that, let alone a lone person who can't even see the supermajority of the grains she's supposed to track.

And that's one cup. She uses far, far more than one cup of iron sand.

We know it can't be done that way because the means are far beyond her.

2) it is generally accepted in-universe that there's only one power per person

That's what they like to pretend, but Index is replete with required secondary powers, and Misaka is no exception.

Let's take what you said above, for example: Misaka's one power is electrokineses. She can conjure or manipulate high amounts of electricty.

If her power is electrokineses, then any power to effect magnetic fields is an indirect effect, dependant on her ability to channel/direction electricity from herself. Which, as I posted about above, is a very poor/impossible way to make magnetic fields with iron sand. She would not have electro-magnetic-field-kineses.

If her one power is electrokineses, then she would also be rather ineffective on basis of not being able to detect/measure it; electro-sensory is distinct from electro-kineseis, and without being able to sense electricity/magnetic fields she wouldn't be able to control them at any level.

Then there's lightning immunity; being able to manipulate/channel electricity does not imply you become something other than a burnt stick if you call down lightning on yourself. Every time she fires electricity from herself/calls it down on her, she's serving as the fastest route to ground.

Her railgun also bears mentioning: Newton's Third Law (equal but opposite reactions) really does say that firing a coin from her hand should, if not toss her dozens of feet back, should crush her arm every time she fires.


So besides electro-kinesis, Misaka would be required to

-Sense electric fields
-Direct magnetic-field-manipulation
-Sense magnetic fields
-100% Lightning immunity
-Immunity to Newton's Third Law
-Micro-level precision of both detection and manipulation
-Macro-level calculative abilities far, far in excess of today's supercomputers


But I think I'll agree with you instead, that Misaka only has one power.

3) she can move the iron sand

Doesn't require electricity, really.

Therefore: she is using electricity to move the iron sand.

No, she's moving it through Schrodinger's Cat. Electricity is the mental placebo, since she wouldn't be able to physically, computationally, or precisly, with electricity alone.

Originally Posted by LastResolve

that makes touma a level 6...

No, Touma's a level 0. His power is highly limited, simply by the fact that it is restrained to his hand and only does one thing.

When I say limitless, I mean limitless. No restrictions, no caveats, nada. You can do Schrodinger's Cat without the box. You can can make, say, a mountain of anything appear in mid-air, and then dispell it the next. You could dispel anything or anyone you wanted, or change them however to fit your perception of reality.

Touma? Touma can't even dismiss his own power, and it's only good against other people's powers. All you need to beat Touma is a gun.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Touma? Touma can't even dismiss his own power, and it's only good against other people's powers. All you need to beat Touma is a gun.

Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.

That's because that certain someone had a very powerful imagination.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.

A real gun, I mean. Real real. The kind which, if Touma raised his right hand to intercept, would see his arm blown entirely off.

Touma is, sadly, the kind of hero that any punk with a firearm could take out.

Which is part of his charm, admittedly.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

A real gun, I mean. Real real. The kind which, if Touma raised his right hand to intercept, would see his arm blown entirely off.

Touma is, sadly, the kind of hero that any punk with a firearm could take out.

Which is part of his charm, admittedly.

I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.

Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Claies

I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.

Being manifestly natural makes him something other than utterly invincible. In a world of freaks, he's the normal guy, which makes him the biggest freak of all.

Even more than Touma, I favor the anti-skills.

Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?

"Blessed with suck," as I've heard it.

On the other hands, early on there were some good points about how misfortunate Touma was. In satisfying his ego to destroy the Walking Church, he directly led to Index being gravely wounded, a state at which his own presence hurt any attempt at her recovery. I thought that was one of the better parts of the show, really; it was his fault, and he had nothing to deny it.

While people go on about how lucky Touma is to have a harem, I think it's rather tragic even past the obligatory anime cluelessness. If, when, Touma reciprocates with any one of them, the rest will be sad, and that would make him miserable. Harems aren't an equal opportunity web of relationships: by and large, it's not a happy state of affairs for the 'lesser' women, who don't get near the time or affection.


More to your question, I don't think it can really be estimated, since we don't know the the true nature of Touma's power: it's likely more than esper, but what, who knows. I think we could say, however, that nothing is too bad to happen to him.

If it weren't the type of anime it is, To Aru (and Touma) would make a good basis for a dark fantasy/sci-fi.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Claies

I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.

Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?

Because the destiny conspires against him. Death = no more bad luck, more painful is to keep him alive facing many times experiences close to death.