AnimeSuki Forums

AuraTwilight · 2010-12-26, 23:53

So basically your idea is that Kinzo planned all this shit, then Genji carried it out after his death?

Yea, that causes problems with the facts super fast.

Quote:

In addition, I don't really like the idea that Genji would become a mass murderer just because Kinzo ordered him to do it.

Yea, Genji's not a robot, he does have a mind of his own. He did not condone Kinzo wincesting his daughter, I don't think he'd be down with killing everyone for the lulz.

zorahk · 2010-12-26, 23:53

Quote:

When astronauts cry: Uchyuuhikoushi no naku koro ni: 宇宙飛行士のなくころに

the title's fine, it's just not the same meaning as his other two titles though. again, 鳴く is only for animals, any other use of it is completely wrong. 泣く is fine though for humans, but conversely is WRONG for animals. since the title is written in hiragana, it's ambiguous and works for either, but it doesn't carry the same meaning as his previous works so if he wants to keep with the pattern he won't do that. It's better to think of 鳴く as a "call"

Japanese is a very complex language because verbs with the same reading, meaning, and english translations are used in different contexts based entirely on the kanji.

私、私（わたくし）this difference is unfortunately bad for practicality reasons
目、眼
聞く、聴く
戦う、闘う (many Japanese people are even confused on the difference between these, I'm not even going to begin to describe how thin the line is between the two)
泣く、鳴く
宇宙、宇宙（そら）
無くす、亡くす
降りる、下りる
昇る、上る、登る
甘く、上手く
理由、理由（わけ）
竜、龍 (this one the meaning isn't really different but one is simplified and one isn't, yet both are for some reason still used extensively.)
these all, in theory, mean the exact same thing when translated into english. however the context they are used in is different, and therefore the overall meaning is different.

the list goes on forever.

-your friendly neighborhood japanese grammar nazi.

Moogleking · 2010-12-27, 00:07

The only way Kinzo is the "culprit" that seems to make sense is if you claim it was his fault Yasu was born (raping his daughter), and then everything else was fated for Yasu. This is a pretty lame out for Yasu, though, and I'll be sad if something like this happens.

AuraTwilight · 2010-12-27, 00:08

Yea, but if we do that, let's out Kinzo. It was his elders' fault for jerking him around his whole life and making him the broken man who had to obsessively cling to Beatrice to know any sort of happiness and thus end up creating Yasu via wincest.

Sherringford · 2010-12-27, 00:38

You know, we all somewhat respect Kinzo because of all the shit he went through, but if we just take the facts and ignore the heart of the crime, he comes off as the villain pretty easily.

Yes I know we can't do that, but I just find it funny. I mean, look at it while ignoring his motives.

->Insists he wants to enlist no matter what.
->Proclaims it's because he wants to die
->Mentions his skills, which allow him not to be sent to battle, contradicting his previous claim.
->Cheats on his wife
->Came back from the war that he went to without a reason with a pile of gold and a hot woman whom he basically uses as a prisoner
->Woman mysteriously dies, all the gold becomes his
->Woman's daughter kept hidden while he rapes her
->His rape prisoner dies mysteriously. His incestuous child is hidden.
->He makes a gigantic bomb switch for no apparent reason

Kinzo is a James Bond villain. I mean damn.

HEARTLESS THEORY TIME:

Genji is part Italian. Remember that he said something about owning his life to Kinzo or whatever. There's a chance I might be making this up, so I wouldn't mind a fact check.

Ronoue sort of sorts Italian. Really it sounds like the name of someone who would get bullied at school a lot, but uh yeah..

Genji then proceeded to give Kinzo info about the submarine, the gold, and he somehow made his own troops land in Rokkenjima. Then he and Kinzo massacred everyone minus Beatrice because Kinzo went "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage hers."

Then they high fived, kidnapped Beato, went up to Nanjo who was like "DUDES. You are awesome!" who high fived them as well and cured Beatrice, then Kinzo proceeded to do all the stuff he said he did.

Then, afraid of being caught by the government, he build that bomb switch on the James Bond Villain logic of "IT'S BETTER TO DIE IN AN EXPLOSION THAN TO BE EXECUTED."

Then he eventually went "fuck I'm awful" and regretted everything and deluded himself into thinking he was a better person.

Points against this theory:

-It's stupid
-It completely ignores Theatergoing Authority
-It's really stupid
-It implies that Ronoue is an Italian name and it really really isn't.

Keriaku · 2010-12-27, 02:11

What if the George/Battler mix is what resolves Yasu to carry out Kinzo's will? Though by this point this would really be just to add on to Beatrice's motive for carrying them out.

I agree this now doesn't seem likely, as I believe Kinzo will not be painted as a bad person from this perspective. I'm just playing with ideas, as there's no need to stay stuck with what we've thought in the past.

m0h · 2010-12-27, 02:37

The only names that could be Italians are Jessica, Beatrice and Eva. The first one, not in its origins, but it's widely used in italy in post-war times. ( Meaning that at the time of the crime, it could have been possibile. ). About the second, well, nothing to say. The last one is the Italian name of the female of the Eden's couple. Adam & Eve = Adamo & Eva.

Edit: and really forget about Genji being italian. Unless Genji Ronowe is an alias, that can't be possible. And for this blue we already have Knox 8th. But well, we do know very little about him.

Helmet-kun · 2010-12-27, 02:38

Bah, forget the next series. What I want to EP8 to at least reveal (should R07 not reveal answers) is whether or not Lion is male or Female.

...And if, um...If we can take the Lion x Will as a canon pairing...

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-27, 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0h

The only names that could be Italians are Jessica, Beatrice and Eva. The first one, not in its origins, but it's widely used in italy in post-war times. ( Meaning that at the time of the crime, it could have been possibile. ). About the second, well, nothing to say. The last one is the Italian name of the female of the Eden's couple. Adam & Eve = Adamo & Eva.

Edit: and really forget about Genji being italian. Unless Genji Ronowe is an alias, that can't be possible. And for this blue we already have Knox 8th. But well, we do know very little about him.

you forgot Rosa and Maria, which are pretty common.

AuraTwilight · 2010-12-27, 03:30

Also, it's not like Italians have never used foreign names before. I mean, if Kinzo can name his very totally 100% Japanese kids after western people, why the hell not?

Kirroha · 2010-12-27, 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by helmet-kun

bah, forget the next series. What i want to ep8 to at least reveal (should r07 not reveal answers) is whether or not lion is male or female.

...and if, um...if we can take the lion x will as a canon pairing...

I want to believe...

Judoh · 2010-12-27, 03:53

Genji is a girl's name for the Chinese. And guess what it means? Gold.

Kylon99 · 2010-12-27, 04:23

What Chinese name are you talking about? The kanji for Genji (源次) doesn't mean anything like that... do you mean the sound? And then do you mean in Mandarin?

Anyways, Ronoue has always puzzled me. It's not a very common Japanese last name... if it is even one. (呂ノ上) ... Now, I know Ryukishi made it up from Ronove, but the question is... did he make up some alternate in-story explanation for why it's "Ronoue?"

By the way, about Kinzo being Truly Evil... there's two things we should remember at least:

1. I'd bet that Ryukishi would stick the most important scene, relevant to the very, very last thing he will reveal to us... first. This may not say that Kinzo is evil per se, but at least his influence may not be over just yet. At least the red guts scene of him being greedy for the gold should say we still (STILL!) haven't gotten the right story about him yet...

2. We've noticed that George probably has both knowledge and practice (i.e. sleight of hand) ability for his magic. And while we have had explanations for Yasu and Maria, we haven't found out where he got his information from. There are only so many people he could reasonably have gotten involved with to get that good. Yasu, by himself like Maria... or... Kinzo?

Hmm... the thing is if there's anything more left to be revealed about Kinzo, there needs to be clues from EP1-4 about this... are there?

By the way, one more thing I want to say is that we have a problem with the arming of the bomb. It's been said in EP7 that the bomb simply goes off when it hits midnight if it's set to on. Since in all games that show it the bomb doesn't go off on the first day, this means that on the first day it was set to off on midnight and between that midnight and the successive midnight someone MUST come to arm the bomb. We assume it's Yasu/Shannon/Kanon, right?

Well, for EP1-3, it's never shown Shannon or Kanon's activities at midnight. However, what happened for EP4? If it can be shown that Shkannon/Shannon/Kanon/whoever were locked down on the second day, then... there must be someone else who arms the bomb, right? Ergo that person has knowledge of the bomb, the gold, the plan, and probably the epitaph solution, etc, etc....

I should go back through EP4...

Judoh · 2010-12-27, 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

What Chinese name are you talking about? The kanji for Genji (源次) doesn't mean anything like that... do you mean the sound? And then do you mean in Mandarin?

I know it doesn't mean that in Japanese. I'd say it means that in Mandarin. And anyway I found it through a google search and thought it was a funny coincidence so I didn't intend that it be taken seriously at all.

http://www.meaning-of-names.com/chinese-names/genji.asp

Kirroha · 2010-12-27, 04:39

Wait, what? I don't know any characters in Mandarin for Genji that can mean 'gold'.

Kylon99 · 2010-12-27, 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

I know it doesn't mean that in Japanese. I'd say it means that in Mandarin. And anyway I found it through a google search so I didn't intend that it be taken seriously.

http://www.meaning-of-names.com/chinese-names/genji.asp

What that web page has doesn't even sound right.

It feels to me like they're just making it up since they don't show what the name itself is in Chinese characters. But, maybe they're talking about one of the other dialects pronouncing 金子 ... "Jinji" is how it sounds in Mandarin, "Gumji" in Cantonese and "Geumja" in Korean...

Maybe... Genji is the real Kinzo and Kinzo was merely the Butler! Or Battler! Genzotler Theory...

Kirroha · 2010-12-27, 04:53

Quote:

"Jinji" is how it sounds in Mandarin

Jinzi.

Still, no way any Chinese characters can be put together to make Genji and mean 'gold'.

m0h · 2010-12-27, 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

you forgot Rosa and Maria, which are pretty common.

Yeah, i forgot. Not so common anymore, but still perfectly acceptable names for the time.

I wonder if Rosa's name can be linked to roses garden, since Rosa means Rose ( the flower ). I doubt it's related to the color ( pink, Rosa means also pink in italian. )

I also think that the whole Ronoue matter that links Genji with Ronove is just merely that: just Ryu07 telling us that Ronove is Genji seen from the point of view of Beatrice.

Vylen · 2010-12-27, 06:48

Well, if you want to think of Rosa's name as to mean rose, then think about the garden scenes with Maria... As she's crying and screaming that her rose isn't in the garden, Rosa is taken over by anger and slaps Maria... in two senses, Maria's rose isn't there - the marked flower and the Rosa that loves and cares for Maria.

Sherringford · 2010-12-27, 07:43

If we are pushing it, maybe Rosa stands for rosario and it refers to its religious usage.

The rosario is often associated with reflecting upon one's sins, so considering the way she treats Maria and all, if the moon and the sun are aligned and we drink a bit too much alcohol, we can see one more hidden meaning for her name.

2010-12-27, 00:08	Link #20384
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Yea, but if we do that, let's out Kinzo. It was his elders' fault for jerking him around his whole life and making him the broken man who had to obsessively cling to Beatrice to know any sort of happiness and thus end up creating Yasu via wincest. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2010-12-27, 02:11	Link #20386
Keriaku Thought Being Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada	What if the George/Battler mix is what resolves Yasu to carry out Kinzo's will? Though by this point this would really be just to add on to Beatrice's motive for carrying them out. I agree this now doesn't seem likely, as I believe Kinzo will not be painted as a bad person from this perspective. I'm just playing with ideas, as there's no need to stay stuck with what we've thought in the past. __________________ Meta-World Theory: Reality-Fantasy Perspective [*] Beatrice's Dead-End Fate A Lovingly Crafted Tale [<3] Meta World Theory [Foundation] Aspects of Umineko

2010-12-27, 02:38	Link #20388
Helmet-kun Local Crackpot Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Somewhere?	Bah, forget the next series. What I want to EP8 to at least reveal (should R07 not reveal answers) is whether or not Lion is male or Female. ...And if, um...If we can take the Lion x Will as a canon pairing... __________________

2010-12-27, 03:30	Link #20390
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Also, it's not like Italians have never used foreign names before. I mean, if Kinzo can name his very totally 100% Japanese kids after western people, why the hell not? __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2010-12-27, 03:53	Link #20392
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Genji is a girl's name for the Chinese. And guess what it means? Gold. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-12-27, 00:07	Link #20383
Moogleking Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	The only way Kinzo is the "culprit" that seems to make sense is if you claim it was his fault Yasu was born (raping his daughter), and then everything else was fated for Yasu. This is a pretty lame out for Yasu, though, and I'll be sad if something like this happens.

2010-12-27, 00:38	Link #20385
Sherringford Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	You know, we all somewhat respect Kinzo because of all the shit he went through, but if we just take the facts and ignore the heart of the crime, he comes off as the villain pretty easily. Yes I know we can't do that, but I just find it funny. I mean, look at it while ignoring his motives. ->Insists he wants to enlist no matter what. ->Proclaims it's because he wants to die ->Mentions his skills, which allow him not to be sent to battle, contradicting his previous claim. ->Cheats on his wife ->Came back from the war that he went to without a reason with a pile of gold and a hot woman whom he basically uses as a prisoner ->Woman mysteriously dies, all the gold becomes his ->Woman's daughter kept hidden while he rapes her ->His rape prisoner dies mysteriously. His incestuous child is hidden. ->He makes a gigantic bomb switch for no apparent reason Kinzo is a James Bond villain. I mean damn. HEARTLESS THEORY TIME: Genji is part Italian. Remember that he said something about owning his life to Kinzo or whatever. There's a chance I might be making this up, so I wouldn't mind a fact check. Ronoue sort of sorts Italian. Really it sounds like the name of someone who would get bullied at school a lot, but uh yeah.. Genji then proceeded to give Kinzo info about the submarine, the gold, and he somehow made his own troops land in Rokkenjima. Then he and Kinzo massacred everyone minus Beatrice because Kinzo went "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage hers." Then they high fived, kidnapped Beato, went up to Nanjo who was like "DUDES. You are awesome!" who high fived them as well and cured Beatrice, then Kinzo proceeded to do all the stuff he said he did. Then, afraid of being caught by the government, he build that bomb switch on the James Bond Villain logic of "IT'S BETTER TO DIE IN AN EXPLOSION THAN TO BE EXECUTED." Then he eventually went "fuck I'm awful" and regretted everything and deluded himself into thinking he was a better person. Points against this theory: -It's stupid -It completely ignores Theatergoing Authority -It's really stupid -It implies that Ronoue is an Italian name and it really really isn't.

2010-12-27, 02:37	Link #20387
m0h Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	The only names that could be Italians are Jessica, Beatrice and Eva. The first one, not in its origins, but it's widely used in italy in post-war times. ( Meaning that at the time of the crime, it could have been possibile. ). About the second, well, nothing to say. The last one is the Italian name of the female of the Eden's couple. Adam & Eve = Adamo & Eva. Edit: and really forget about Genji being italian. Unless Genji Ronowe is an alias, that can't be possible. And for this blue we already have Knox 8th. But well, we do know very little about him.

2010-12-27, 04:23	Link #20393
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	What Chinese name are you talking about? The kanji for Genji (源次) doesn't mean anything like that... do you mean the sound? And then do you mean in Mandarin? Anyways, Ronoue has always puzzled me. It's not a very common Japanese last name... if it is even one. (呂ノ上) ... Now, I know Ryukishi made it up from Ronove, but the question is... did he make up some alternate in-story explanation for why it's "Ronoue?" By the way, about Kinzo being Truly Evil... there's two things we should remember at least: 1. I'd bet that Ryukishi would stick the most important scene, relevant to the very, very last thing he will reveal to us... first. This may not say that Kinzo is evil per se, but at least his influence may not be over just yet. At least the red guts scene of him being greedy for the gold should say we still (STILL!) haven't gotten the right story about him yet... 2. We've noticed that George probably has both knowledge and practice (i.e. sleight of hand) ability for his magic. And while we have had explanations for Yasu and Maria, we haven't found out where he got his information from. There are only so many people he could reasonably have gotten involved with to get that good. Yasu, by himself like Maria... or... Kinzo? Hmm... the thing is if there's anything more left to be revealed about Kinzo, there needs to be clues from EP1-4 about this... are there? By the way, one more thing I want to say is that we have a problem with the arming of the bomb. It's been said in EP7 that the bomb simply goes off when it hits midnight if it's set to on. Since in all games that show it the bomb doesn't go off on the first day, this means that on the first day it was set to off on midnight and between that midnight and the successive midnight someone MUST come to arm the bomb. We assume it's Yasu/Shannon/Kanon, right? Well, for EP1-3, it's never shown Shannon or Kanon's activities at midnight. However, what happened for EP4? If it can be shown that Shkannon/Shannon/Kanon/whoever were locked down on the second day, then... there must be someone else who arms the bomb, right? Ergo that person has knowledge of the bomb, the gold, the plan, and probably the epitaph solution, etc, etc.... I should go back through EP4...

2010-12-27, 04:39	Link #20395
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	Wait, what? I don't know any characters in Mandarin for Genji that can mean 'gold'. __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2010-12-27, 06:48	Link #20399
Vylen Apprentice Sorcerer Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Where the Kangaroos Cry.	Well, if you want to think of Rosa's name as to mean rose, then think about the garden scenes with Maria... As she's crying and screaming that her rose isn't in the garden, Rosa is taken over by anger and slaps Maria... in two senses, Maria's rose isn't there - the marked flower and the Rosa that loves and cares for Maria. __________________

2010-12-27, 07:43	Link #20400
Sherringford Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	If we are pushing it, maybe Rosa stands for rosario and it refers to its religious usage. The rosario is often associated with reflecting upon one's sins, so considering the way she treats Maria and all, if the moon and the sun are aligned and we drink a bit too much alcohol, we can see one more hidden meaning for her name.