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View Poll Results: Which type of subs do you like the most
Freely translated and good english 27 35.53%
most accurate and near to the original 40 52.63%
minimalistic ones 2 2.63%
I don't care all i understand is fine 6 7.89%
is there a way to tell oO 1 1.32%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-03-04, 15:48   Link #41
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
This is called wapro (Word processor) romanization and it is considered (by some) to be a cancer to the Japanese language.
WHO considers it that, exactly? That doesn't even make sense! You see it all the time when characters are typing on computers. If the Japanese don't have a problem with it, I sure as hell don't either. If non-Japanese-speaking people have a problem with it...pfft whatever...

The only downfall I see to wapro is that it's on the computer so you get lazy and don't learn the proper kanji/kana strokes.......but that's an entirely different matter than romanization.

Here's the way I see it:

ん is "n" and it will ALWAYS be "n". It will never be "m". Dictionaries and other learning tools will not recognize it as such. Therefore, せんぱい can only be "senpai". If you look for "sempai" in a Japanese to English dictionary, paperback or online, you're not going to find it!

So why make romanization more difficult when you don't have to? It's just adding to the headache for someone who wants to learn more of the language!
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Old 2010-03-04, 16:02   Link #42
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"accurate and close to the original" can mean a lot of things - including "freely translated and good english" - it does not mean "Myself the car purchased, informing you" in most cases. That's a "first pass" draft at best.

It should be decent English *and* close to the spirit of the original. I'm okay with leaving honorifics, idiomatic terms, and food words in Japanese (in fact, its confusing when someone translates udon as "chicken soup") because those often *don't* have direct translations. I've even gotten a bit annoyed at seeing "kami" as "God" rather than "gods". It is misleading.

One thing I won't tolerate is what I'll call "over localization" or "sloppy slang" -- I've seen some so off base it changes the personality of the character or completely misfires the intent of the scene. Sometimes its funny... but fansubbers that do it often overestimate their own ability to write.

Visit the blogs of anime/manga translators and observe how they have to stew over word choice or how to handle allegorical remarks. Proverbs are another one. I have an entire book on Japanese idioms and proverbs because just "babelfishing" would leave the reader in a "wtf" state.
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Old 2010-03-04, 16:06   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post

One thing I won't tolerate is what I'll call "over localization" or "sloppy slang" -- I've seen some so off base it changes the personality of the character or completely misfires the intent of the scene.
Yes! Thank you!

Overly localized sloppy slang is basically what I meant by some sub translations being a bit too westernized.
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Old 2010-03-04, 16:13   Link #44
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I just prefer ones that are understandable. An occasional translator's note is fine as well. The only subs I hate are ones that use weird colors/fonts so I have to squint.
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Old 2010-03-04, 16:17   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I'll just put this out here now:

I despise name changes, names in American format, honorifics left out (like -chan, kun, san, being completely omitted), a sub reading first name when the character is being called by their LAST name...and pretty much any other thing in subbing that treats its viewers like idiots who are deaf and don't know a thing about Japanese culture.

I will not download from any fansubbing group that does that stuff. It gets so annoying and distracting that I can't even focus on the show.
I'll have to quote from this too. When I hear honorifics that aren't in the subs, I stop concentrating on the video and concentrate too much on the subs. Subs which become intrusive due to stylistic choices are, for me, as bad as subs that take up a third or half of the screen.

I hate typos though, and grammatical errors end up distracting me as well. I tend to be picky about that stuff, even if I'm not a master at it myself.
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Old 2010-03-04, 18:45   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
(in fact, its confusing when someone translates udon as "chicken soup") because those often *don't* have direct translations.
..........*twitches*

Do....do subbers actually do that!?

I might have to smack one around if I met them in person.... I remember getting pissed during Card Captor Sakura because the fansubbers put "ramune" as "juice". JUICE!? It is not juice!! Ramune is nothing like juice dammit, it's SODA!

And has anyone thought it odd when a character says "Thank you" in broken English but the subber puts "Arigatou" for the translation?

Kinda silly...
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Old 2010-03-04, 18:58   Link #47
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Voted "most accurate and near to the original".

Recently switched to another fansub group on a certain anime, because the previous group I was following removes the honorifics and translate to first name when the character is actually saying the last name.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2010-03-04 at 19:11.
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Old 2010-03-04, 19:06   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Voted "most accurate and near to the original".

Recently switched to another fansub group on a certain anime, because the previous group I was following removes the honorifics and translate to first name when the character is actually saying the last name.
LOLOLOL I TOLD YOU!!
Didn't I!?
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Old 2010-03-04, 19:24   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
WHO considers it that, exactly? That doesn't even make sense! You see it all the time when characters are typing on computers. If the Japanese don't have a problem with it, I sure as hell don't either. If non-Japanese-speaking people have a problem with it...pfft whatever...
Who is a group of Japanese professors, Japanese linguists etc. The reason for it is simple: It isn't official, has some issues, and people who rely on it are unable to romanize certain things. Romanization is done for pronunciation, not for computer input.
Ex: Turu for 鶴 (Tsuru), Texi-supo-n for ティースプーン (Tiisupuun) 


Quote:
Here's the way I see it:

ん is "n" and it will ALWAYS be "n". It will never be "m". Dictionaries and other learning tools will not recognize it as such. Therefore, せんぱい can only be "senpai". If you look for "sempai" in a Japanese to English dictionary, paperback or online, you're not going to find it!
Romaji is a crutch. It is not supposed to be used for dictionary lookups or learning. Most of the major dictionaries have completely stopped using any romaji for primary keys. (And actually, any learning tools that are written in traditional hepburn will have it as m. Almost everything has switched to kunrei-shiki or modern hepburn now though.)
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Old 2010-03-04, 19:37   Link #50
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most accurate and near to the original

Westernized doesn't bother me, it's butchering the dialogue that gets to me. I don't mind honorifics, or japanese sayings, thats the part of learning, really.

I've watched very few sub episodes, and believe closest to the original is best.

Perspective and individual belief, of course. I'm not saying it should be followed by anyone else. Ironically enough, that is what the majority agrees upon.
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Old 2010-03-04, 20:45   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
One thing I won't tolerate is what I'll call "over localization" or "sloppy slang" -- I've seen some so off base it changes the personality of the character or completely misfires the intent of the scene. Sometimes its funny... but fansubbers that do it often overestimate their own ability to write.
The main reason as for why I tend to avoid spanish subs.

It gets even worse when you take into account that some of them are actually translating the "sloppy slang" of other english groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun
Recently switched to another fansub group on a certain anime, because the previous group I was following removes the honorifics and translate to first name when the character is actually saying the last name.
Another thing I sometimes see in spanish subs.
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Old 2010-03-04, 20:54   Link #52
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The answer is, it depends. I have a different answer for my own preference, and a different answer for commercial mainstream localization.

My own preference is for very literal translations. But the reason is because I understand Japanese speech patterns, for the most part. Thus subtitles are more or less an "instant dictionary" when I don't recognize a word. So ultra-literal translations are the most easiest to pick out the meaning of the word I don't understand.

For fansubs, I also think it is best to keep close to the original Japanese even if occasionally awkward. The reason is simply because anime fans consuming these fansubs usually have already become familiar with quirks of Japanese conversation. They're not confused by what -chan or -san means, or why people call each other by last names.

However, I strongly feel the opposite for mainstream localizations and dubs. The purpose of these projects is to make a work accessible to a new audience, and the mainstream audiences in different countries can't be expected to be familiar with every single linguistic idiosyncracy of every language. Nor should you expect them to. In this case you should never throw in butchered English sentences in the name of "preserving the original". Preserve the original meaning as best you can, but present it as natural speech in the new language. This is a problem I had with the dub for Princess Mononoke. They left Mononoke untranslated, and since not many dub-watchers know Japanese, it became a meaningless word with no significance, which is a shame.
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:01   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Who is a group of Japanese professors, Japanese linguists etc. The reason for it is simple: It isn't official, has some issues, and people who rely on it are unable to romanize certain things. Romanization is done for pronunciation, not for computer input.
Ex: Turu for 鶴 (Tsuru), Texi-supo-n for ティースプーン (Tiisupuun)
But........if you type "tsuru", you'll still get the correct kanji. How is it not official?
I just don't really understand.

Lol if romanization is done for pronunciation, you definitely don't want to teach 先輩 as "sempai". You can hear a difference.
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:10   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
The answer is, it depends. I have a different answer for my own preference, and a different answer for commercial mainstream localization.

My own preference is for very literal translations. But the reason is because I understand Japanese speech patterns, for the most part. Thus subtitles are more or less an "instant dictionary" when I don't recognize a word. So ultra-literal translations are the most easiest to pick out the meaning of the word I don't understand.

For fansubs, I also think it is best to keep close to the original Japanese even if occasionally awkward. The reason is simply because anime fans consuming these fansubs usually have already become familiar with quirks of Japanese conversation. They're not confused by what -chan or -san means, or why people call each other by last names.

However, I strongly feel the opposite for mainstream localizations and dubs. The purpose of these projects is to make a work accessible to a new audience, and the mainstream audiences in different countries can't be expected to be familiar with every single linguistic idiosyncracy of every language. Nor should you expect them to. In this case you should never throw in butchered English sentences in the name of "preserving the original". Preserve the original meaning as best you can, but present it as natural speech in the new language. This is a problem I had with the dub for Princess Mononoke. They left Mononoke untranslated, and since not many dub-watchers know Japanese, it became a meaningless word with no significance, which is a shame.
I strongly agree.

This is also how I myself view the main purposes of the sub and the dub.

Most sub watchers are, as you say, familiar with the quirks of Japanese conversation. They're generally not baffled by honorifics or the linguistic idiosyncrasy of the Japanese language.


However, dubs are for a potentially broader audience, and accessibility is key to them, I think. That's why I don't mind some degree of localization in dubs, but not as far as the original One Piece dub went.


Personally, I like this approach.
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:12   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
But........if you type "tsuru", you'll still get the correct kanji. How is it not official?
I just don't really understand.

Lol if romanization is done for pronunciation, you definitely don't want to teach 先輩 as "sempai". You can hear a difference.
... w-what?
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:12   Link #56
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o.o

@topic
Seems liberal is outnumbered by literal. :<
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Old 2010-03-04, 22:07   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
... w-what?
I meant you can hear a difference between "senpai" and "sempai" so if you use romanization, I think it's better to write it as "n".
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Old 2010-03-04, 23:30   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I meant you can hear a difference between "senpai" and "sempai" so if you use romanization, I think it's better to write it as "n".
Except... the correct Japanese pronunciation is actually more accurately represented by sempai.

The whole reason that "ん" was romanized into an m before p, and b syllables is because in properly spoken japanese it is pronounced slightly differently when it comes before those syllables.
...
Saying "Sen - pai" is less correct pronunciation than "se-mpai"... er, it's hard to explain this with text, but basically the "m" sound should be created with your lips closing, not your tongue.

Remember, Japanese spoken language came before Hiragana, and the basic hiragana sounds actually have a number of small variations depending on context. Similar reasons explain the use of は and ヘ being pronounced "wa" and "e" when used as particles, etc...
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Old 2010-03-04, 23:37   Link #59
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Written codes are always a bit of an approximation of the natural sounds/words. This is true in any language that makes use of phonetic codes. "ki-nig-it" (knight), um errrrr.... not a great example. I just wanted to say "ki-nig-it" because I'm watching Michael Palin's travel documentary "Full Circle" and he's in Japan this episode.
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Old 2010-03-05, 01:24   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Except... the correct Japanese pronunciation is actually more accurately represented by sempai.

The whole reason that "ん" was romanized into an m before p, and b syllables is because in properly spoken japanese it is pronounced slightly differently when it comes before those syllables.
...
Saying "Sen - pai" is less correct pronunciation than "se-mpai"... er, it's hard to explain this with text, but basically the "m" sound should be created with your lips closing, not your tongue.
I don't really agree.....it's all in how quickly you say the word. You can say it fast and still get the right sound even with "n".
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