Fate/Zero - Spoilers & Speculation (for Light Novel and Drama CD public only)

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Again, I don't get where you can draw the assumption that "simply because it is a beam, it can deal more than "1 life damage".

beam = NPs special ability
beam =/= normal slash
beam > normal slash
beam = powerful enough to kill him 7 times over
normal slash = can only kill him once

is this clear enough?

Arondight is the sister sword of Excalibur, to which is even -closer- to Excalibur than Caliburn itself, as Arondight was created by the Fairy of the Lake.

...and? Do we ever see Arondight shoot a beam of light? Was it ever mentioned or hinted at that it could?

There is no way for Shirou to increase Saber stats.

he doesn't. What he does is trace NPs who can wield themselves as if they were wielded by their rightful owner. When shirou traces caliburn, the sword swings itself with the same STR and AGI as if it were wielded by saber -and not shirou's saber, but the real one, at that- Hence A rank STR

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by giorno

beam = NPs special ability
beam =/= normal slash
beam > normal slash
beam = powerful enough to kill him 7 times over
normal slash = can only kill him once

is this clear enough?
...and? Do we ever see Arondight shoot a beam of light? Was it ever mentioned or hinted at that it could?

Never, still it is clearly indicated Arondight has property of the same caliber. Again, the whole problem is the "beam part" which I really disagree here. We already know that the damage itself isn't even part of the issue, since even a world rending attack of a C rank would be ignored by GH, despite a cluster of magical jewels would hit him, if it is A rank. Therefore, beam being a damage attribute would -not- be factored in the problem. The nature of the damage shouldn't even be considered here.

At very best, the only conjuncture possible is the following: damage can be substained completely, so long the condition is fulfilled (A Rank, unrelated to damage), so even property wouldn't enter in the equation, as only raw damage (and as I stated above, damage nature/attribute shouldn't be factored, otherwise the whole distinction of Rank makes even less sense). But it goes back to the first point: the live stock concept being... a common pool for weird reason, which we both agree being a plot hax.
In a layman term, that's like as if a boss hit you for 7000 damage while your character has only 1000 and you have to use like 7 phoenix down, because for some reason, the extra damage remains.

That's the main complaint why the whole scene doesn't make any sense to begin with. Afterwards, grasping such explanation that isn't even hinted to begin with is hardly convincing.

he doesn't. What he does is trace NPs who can wield themselves as if they were wielded by their rightful owner. When shirou traces caliburn, the sword swings itself with the same STR and AGI as if it were wielded by saber -and not shirou's saber, but the real one, at that- Hence A rank STR

Not really, otherwise Shirou wouldn't have needed Saber to wield Caliburn in the first place.

Urgh, always the same problem with such kind of discussion: No proper lore material to explain things that are off the loop. I guess I'm done with this, being in the end, a plain plot hole, assumption being solid or not.

[TwilightsCall]

There are two different "modifiers" that can be applied to ranks, + and -. The "+" modifier represents the capacity of a temporary boost in power if certain conditions are met, allowing a weapon or ability of a lower rank to surpass a higher rank for a moment. + indicates a two-times increase, ++ indicates a three-times increase, and +++ indicates a four-times increase. The "-" modifier has not been explained, but it is present on Kanshou and Bakuya and Rider's Divinity.

This is on the Type Moon wikia. Is this incorrect?

[Klashikari]

That's news to me, as that kind of thing was never mentioned this way in the game. Nasu and his shenanigans yet again...

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

cut

argh, no, again, you misunderstood my point.

what i'm saying is, caliburn does that damage because it's caliburn, not because of its rank. To make an example, Excalibur is A++ in rank, but a simple slash from it doesn't have the same power as excaliblast. With caliburn, it's a similar case. And Arondight doesn't have any such special attack, it boosts its wielder's stats by one rank, and that's it

Not really, otherwise Shirou wouldn't have needed Saber to wield Caliburn in the first place.

go replay the game then, it's explicitly stated both in the scene of caliburn as well as in nine bullet revolver as well as in the shirou vs archer fight in UBW

as for why saber was needed...one theory is that caliburn is tied to her and only she can activate it(kinda like avalon)

@TwilightsCall: it's correct. It doesn't mean anything as far as the current discussion is concerned though. A+ is still A, B+ is still B...

[TwilightsCall]

I was aiming my post more at GDB and Klashikari's discussion of if a C+ weapon could hurt berserker, not so relevant to the current conversation. Though on that note, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that its not the strength of the attack, its the Rank that matters, so even a B rank attack multiplied by 4, while could be much more than triple the attack power of an A rank attack, couldn't even scratch Berserker while a much weaker A rank attack could potentially kill him.

As far as the current discussion goes, as I just stated my impression was that the nature of the attack is irrelevant. As long as its A rank, its capable of harming Berserker. That means that Excalibur and Arondight should both be more than capable of injuring Berserker. As to why Caliburn killed Berserker 7 times...the only somewhat plausible explanation I can think of, considering the information that was given, was that Berserker was killed once, reanimated while the sword was still in him, so he died again, rinse and repeat til he has no lives left. Kind of a weak theory I know but thats what I've got lol.

As for a more practical explanation of why it killed him 7 times, I'm pretty sure Nasu just didn't want the scene to have to extend any longer. Having to defeat Berserker 7 times in a row would have just made the scene feel too long and dampened the triumphant victory feel of the scene.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by giorno

argh, no, again, you misunderstood my point.

You miss my point again it seems.

The nature of the damage is completely irrelevant as explained by the fact even a C rank world rending attack wouldn't leave a scratch (which can be said, totally different league than a slash or excalibur).
Damage is another story, but again, simply because it is a "beam" doesn't mean it it will suddenly be 7 times stronger to beat Herakles, even if we factor ++. To begin with, I see that you bring this portion as a "damage nature/ability" but that's the very latest part I don't agree (and the whole rank discussion was to explain why it could -connect- on Herakles, it has nothing to do with the damage dealt).
I never stated a A rank will definitely deal more than a single 1 life damage, however, I simply disagree to the fact it is "just because a beam similar to excalibur" that clear the whole matter, that's an even more inconsistent plot hole than simply "can be considered for every NP, depending of their own damage modifier after bypassing the rank limiter".

By the way, I really doubt Arondight "just" boost the wielder parameter without anything else. Reasons stated above: sister sword to Excalibur, -and- it is a A++ as well. Which means: it has the same quality (and ability to go X3), and while Excalibur is anti fortress, Arondight is anti personal, which would be even more effective against a single target.

go replay the game then, it's explicitly stated both in the scene of caliburn as well as in nine bullet revolver as well as in the shirou vs archer fight in UBW

I'm pretty sure what Shirou could feel was the "experience" and will of the weapons and thus could have better trajectories and the like. I certainly don't remember the game stating he suddenly have the strength and agility of the original owner, gotta read it again.

the only somewhat plausible explanation I can think of, considering the information that was given, was that Berserker was killed once, reanimated while the sword was still in him, so he died again, rinse and repeat til he has no lives left. Kind of a weak theory I know but thats what I've got lol.

That's not possible, because the attack didn't last longer than an instant and the narration explained that Herakles required minutes to heal his wounds. Also, Caliburn shattered the very moment it unleashed the flash, so it didn't "stay" in him. The blast itself occured upon hit.

[Craxuan]

How should I explain this...

Let's put it this way: When it comes to the battle of Servants, the strength of its Noble Phantasm is determined by the power of its concept. I don't believe practicality can be used here. The strength/stats of a Servant is determined by his/her fame, but the strength of a NP is determined by the strength of its concept.

The reason Excalibur wasn't up to par with Ea was because Excalibur's strength came from the concept of the World (the people's strength), whereas Ea's concept is the World's killer.

And to the discussion of Caliburn.

So, supposedly whenever Shirou traces a weapon through projection, the weapons will always be inferior to the original because there's no way to complete replicate a weapon's memories. Something will always be missing and thus making it weaker.

But that is only if he created those weapons for someone else other than Saber.

Unlimited Blade Works is undoubted Shirou's magic. But the magic reached its peak potential - or its original power - only when it is used to create a weapon for Saber. From the very beginning, UBW was not just a reality marble where Shirou can pull weapons out from his mind's world, but a place where he wished with all his heart to be come Saber's strength. For her ideals of a perfect world. He believed that Saber will never be defeated, will always forge on no matter what obstacles lay before her, and that he wished to become part of her strength and walk together. He learned that he will never become a good mage, nor someone as powerful as her, but at the very least, he wished to lent her his strength, that is to make her a weapon strong enough to defeat all enemies.

I personally believe the true concept of UBW, or at least its starting point is a place where Shirou lents his strength to Saber and Saber alone, in the form of creating weapons. He had always wanted to be a hero, and his magic was always there, but it was only truly 'born' whole when he met Saber. After Saber left, he can no longer create weapons on par with the original, because the only weapons whose concept he memorized utterly and every grain was Saber's. Hence all the NP he created after are inferiors, and there is no reason for him to create Saber's weapons because he did not believe he can wield them as well.

After he died and become a cleaner, he didn't even have a human's 'possibilities' anymore - he belonged to the world, and he cannot go beyond his limits. It is a concept true only for those who are living (mentioned somewhere I cannot remember).

As for why Caliburn can kill Berserker - Shirou had always felt guilty that because he was an inferior mage, Saber could not get the magic supply she needed to continue fighting and thus rendered into a miserable state. He believed Saber to be undefeatable if she was at her full strength. He wished with all his heart to help her, and at that time, he wished to create the sword from Saber's memories, Caliburn, the sword that became her strength when she first became a king, that is, the origin of her resolution when she pulled it out of the stone. He believed that Saber won't lose no matter what, and that her light will cut through anything.

With such a concept to forge Caliburn, and to wield it with her together, seven lives or seventy - there is no way Berserker could've lived through that one strike.

Eh... yes, sentimental reasoning. >_>

[TwilightsCall]

That's not possible, because the attack didn't last longer than an instant and the narration explained that Herakles required minutes to heal his wounds. Also, Caliburn shattered the very moment it unleashed the flash, so it didn't "stay" in him. The blast itself occured upon hit.

Welp, goodbye terrible theory number 1

I'm pretty sure what Shirou could feel was the "experience" and will of the weapons and thus could have better trajectories and the like. I certainly don't remember the game stating he suddenly have the strength and agility of the original owner, gotta read it again.

Here are some quotes from the VN (Shirou et al vs Berserker):

"Does the sword have a will of its own? ... The golden sword does not stop and, as if pulled toward it, slashes through the giant's arm"
(the sword then breaks, he makes a new one)
"...If the shape is similar, the ability must be similar as well. The golden sword digging deep into Berserker engulfs the giant's body from the inside.
----But thats only for an instant. The light disappears and silence returns to the forest."

Take from that what you will. From the other two arcs though, I'm pretty sure its talking about absorbing the skill, not the physical attributes of the previous wielders.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You miss my point again it seems.

The nature of the damage is completely irrelevant

i am not talking about the nature of the damage >_< it doesn't matter that it's a beam or whatever, what matters is that the "beam" is caliburn's power. It's not something every A+ NP sword can do

if you still don't understand my point after this, i'm going to drop the discussion entirely

Excalibur is an A rank NP that can shoot an A++ beam of light
Arondight is an A rank NP that can temporarily give a +1 rank boost to all STATS
Caliburn is, let's say, an A rank NP that can explode an A+ beam inside his opponent

yes, i know we don't know caliburn's rank, i'm just arbitrarily assigning it one for the purpose of my example

what kills berserker 7 times over isn't the A rank slash, it's the A+ rank beam. The special ability proper of the weapon

By the way, I really doubt Arondight "just" boost the wielder parameter without anything else. Reasons stated above: sister sword to Excalibur, -and- it is a A++ as well. Which means: it has the same quality (and ability to go X3), and while Excalibur is anti fortress, Arondight is anti personal, which would be even more effective against a single target.

duh. It's anti-personal, and it has to power to turn its wielder into a juggernaut. Looks pretty damn hax to me

I'm pretty sure what Shirou could feel was the "experience" and will of the weapons and thus could have better trajectories and the like. I certainly don't remember the game stating he suddenly have the strength and agility of the original owner, gotta read it again.

No: the NPs shirou traces can literally swing themselves as if they were wielded by their original owner, i.e. with the same STR and speed. Shirou himself doesn't actually get a stat boost, he only holds on to it

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

But that is only if he created those weapons for someone else other than Saber.

In other words: plot hax, because there's no reason that should be the case. Also, I'd say he did a better job creating a weapon for Rin in HF than he did for Saber in Fate.

With such a concept to forge Caliburn, and to wield it with her together, seven lives or seventy - there is no way Berserker could've lived through that one strike.

More plot hax.

[Archer]

Well, it seems like episode 16 went beyond my expectations and became episode 11 Mk 2. A lot of content in the episode which will most likely be expanded more in the BDs.

Although with that done, episode 17 looks like it's going to finish off Vol 3.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Archer

Well, it seems like episode 16 went beyond my expectations and became episode 11 Mk 2. A lot of content in the episode which will most likely be expanded more in the BDs.

Although with that done, episode 17 looks like it's going to finish off Vol 3.

17 & 18 will finish off vol3, 19 will be Kiristugu's flashback and beginning of vol4.

[Klashikari]

Some interviews already confirmed ep18 as Kiritsugu's flashbacks, so ep17 will wrap vol3.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by giorno

Nope. The whole "kill 7 times in one hit" is probably a special ability of caliburn(and gram/merodach). Also an ass pull, but whatever...

It's probably because it's anti-army which is supposedly to kill a number of people simultaneously. One Excaliblast would be able to take Herakles down.

That's probably Nasu's reasoning when he said that Lancer stood a chance of beating Berserker if he used his runes to increase the rank of his Noble Phantasm during the tought fight (he has an anti-army mode for his spear).

[GDB]

Isn't it anti-fortress, not anti-army? Excalibur is, at least.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GDB

Isn't it anti-fortress, not anti-army? Excalibur is, at least.

Yes, I was hypothesizing about Caliburn honestly. But anti-army would work too: whatever isn't anti-unit I mean. Anything that says: "this kills over certain number of people."

Of course that Lancer would need time to rise the rank of the Noble Phantasm and aim at Berserker who would be probably roaring and trying to hit him (anti army mode isn't auto-sure hit like normal gae bolg). That's why there's a low chance. He could technically beat him, but needs some circumstances on his favor.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Thess

Yes, I was hypothesizing about Caliburn honestly. But anti-army would work too: whatever isn't anti-unit I mean. Anything that says: "this kills over certain number of people."

Of course that Lancer would need time to rise the rank of the Noble Phantasm and aim at Berserker who would be probably roaring and trying to hit him (anti army mode isn't auto-sure hit like normal gae bolg). That's why there's a low chance. He could technically beat him, but needs some circumstances on his favor.

knowing lancer's luck. he will get his special circumstance, power up his lance then just before he get to use it. A ACME anvil falls on him

[Ithekro]

But Berserker likes Lancer. Lancer makes the best doggy friend and NP for the big guy.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

knowing lancer's luck. he will get his special circumstance, power up his lance then just before he get to use it. A ACME anvil falls on him

True, true.

But poor Berserker actually dies before him in 2/3 routes. He's a sorer loser. At least Lancer didn't get killed by Shirou twice.

Probably the ideal circumstances is having Bazett has Master (Master compatibility influences luck).