Rewrite & Harvest Festa

[etalocohc84]

Some random thoughts:

Spoiler for Terra route:

I have been wondering, should Earth's Kagari and Moon's Kagari be considered separate existences since they have different memories? Because if they are, doesn't it count as cheating since Moon!Kotarou loves the Kagari in the moon and Terra!Kotarou loves the one on Earth? Pochi might even fall back in love with Moon's Kagari. I can understand if it were alternate universes, but this is the same Kotarou and different Kagari(s).

Also, since Kagari turns Earth back millions of years, doesn't that mean all the previous judgments of Kagari(S) repeat again? Maybe that includes the one Sakuya is involved with and that is how he came back at the ending.

Finally, I really hate how Kashima Sakura just drops dead at the ending. She was supposed to be the representation of all the hatred in the world, yet she dies without paying for her crimes or even feeling any regret. Brenda and the Bishop may have been stopped in Terra route, but I feel they too didn't get their just deserts. I wish KEY makes an addition epilogue or route that corrects this feeling.

[Ceral]

Spoiler for Rewrite:

Originally Posted by Balzac

Spoiler for Rewrite:

And that I believe is crucial to the tragedy of that route, or should I say the tragedy of Terra. It even sends the message that is oft repeated that violence is sometimes the only option. That is what elevated Kotori from a mere heroine in my eyes, as well as the Kotarou from the heroine routes. Recall the latter's attitude towards Yoshino always spoiling for a fight(though he exhibits human flaws of being easily excited to fight). As to Kotori, her "punches" to calm Kotarou down during the common route to ease his forthcoming violence also lends to the impression.

The fight scenes are there to further impress the fact on me, they're brutal, unneeded and ultimately leads to some form of ruin. It may be an overused theme, coming hand-in-hand with its opposite "violence is inevitable", but that is what I think Rewrite is trying to present.

Kotarou curses himself by the end of Terra because for all his sacrifice that he keeps telling himself to be okay, and the hypocrisy of using his powers to violently force a chance in the world, he still ends up using that same violence on someone he cares about.

Tnat might also be another theme - sacrifice - though I won't elaborate on that for now. For a moral, well yes, fighting is definitely not good. Fighting is just "looking cool", and no matter the situation, drawing your "Wrist Blade" always ends up with someone being hurt.

War vs. Peace

The whole violence thing got me thinking. There's pretty much three sides in this game, Gaia/Guardian/Kotarou, which side has the philosophy which should win? I think all three are "evil". Gaia wants to kill all of mankind, among other things like using children to in the war, which makes it pretty clear they're the bad guys. And Guardian isn't much better because they're willing to dupe 3 year old children into signing contract to become human guinea pigs in experiments that will kill them and alter their bodies forever. Kotarou is obviously the lesser of the three evils because at least he draws the line at killing children, but he's pretty ugly himself as he is willing to betray and kill friends in order to accomplish his goals. That just doesn't sit well with me. Such an ugly story with no "ideal" message at the end.

Kind of funny that they stick Chihaya's route in this game too, I found that route to be quite ideal, maybe a little bit too sweet, in that they weren't willing to kill Midow & Co or Akane directly, even though they committed so many atrocities in that route. Seems like each route is really their own route in regard to what they mean and they don't all contribute to a meaning as a whole for the game. Going to Lucia's route, which I'm quite obviously obssessed by, maybe I should break that down to even individual scenes as having their own meaning and not the route trying to mean something as a whole... Eh, I'm kinda over this whole meaning thing anyway, I'm prepared to think of this game as just entertainment :P.

Originally Posted by johnishida

Spoiler for Rewrite's Theme:

As an example of this, Sizuru's says she will follow any order given to her by Guardian despite of whether she thinks is right or wrong and will accept any form of "unhappiness" this may cause. Despite she didn't want to do it, she was willing to kill Kotarou and Chihaya just because those were her orders. At the end, after seeing Kotarou's struggle she starts to do what she believes is right and not what other people tell her is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by johnishida

Spoiler for Rewrite's Theme:

More than "Love conquers it all". I think Lucia's route was meant to describe how even two people who love each other cannot sometimes fully understand each other. In this case, lukewarm love is fitting but, is only normal since from the very beginning their relationship what unnatural. Their true love story starts with the end of their fight in the rooftop.

Did you mean Lucia in the first quote? As far as obeying orders against her will, I would think you meant Lucia. (Edit: Ok, now I remember, you're talking about the fight with Shizuru where Phobia plays during Chihaya's route. I thought the turning point in that fight was seeing Sakuya risk his life for her and Nishikujou after Kotarou went berserk. I thought it was a good "Don't always believe what you hear/don't follow orders blindly moment.") Lucia's orders were to go back to the shelter after completing her mission of releasing her poison. (Edit: Not sure where I'm going with this, but if we go with the whole "The routes contradict eachother", thing here, in this route following orders is good. As she doesn't get her spined crushed and if she had followed orders to go back to the shelter, she could have avoided hurting her friends.) Her going to the mall was her own plan, where she planned to die from the Nuke, but changed her mind ultimately deciding to destroy the entire world while taking back her original name Asahi Haruka. (Is she a Schizo? Did she go "Berserker mode"? Or did she think of this logically? Seems like there is a good argument for all three reasonings...) Lucia seemed to have lost her mind at the end, but she didn't go all the way through with killing Shizuru and Chihaya, which makes me think she had most of her cognitive abilities left. She is willing to thank Kotarou for the date later, telling him she will treasure the memory forever by passing it down in the next world, and then she tries to kill him. (Facepalm) Why doesn't she try to get Kotarou to go along with her?

I've read the date multiple times, and the other moments with Kotarou. During the date scene, she says she no longer wants to die and that she's found a reason to live, to live for Kotarou. She says she loves him in the park as well(Before gassing him to unconsciousness). I found the date scene to be a much more stronger promise that they will stay together forever than the scene above the rooftop. At least from Lucia's point of view. What I'm getting at is, if the message I was supposed to get at the end is that their love is now for real, and unbreakable forever, they did a poor job at making me believe it. I think the only way I could be convinced that Lucia truly loves Kotarou after the happenings in that route, is if she laid her life on the line while opposing guardian. (Go Sequel!)

Originally Posted by johnishida

Spoiler for Rewrite's Theme:

I don't see how Kotarou being worried about Kotori may affect his relationship with Sizuru. Kotori has always being an important part of his life. Should he just give up on that kind of person because he now has a girlfriend? If anything, that makes Kotarou more human and interesting in my book.

No, remember that Sizuru warns Kotarou multiple times to specifically not search for Kotori and especially not enter the forest. If you want to believe that this route is about true love, then Kotarou goes against the wishes of his "True Love" to put himself in great danger for another girl. When you risk your life for another girl when you dont' have to, and you go against the girl who you're "supposed to love" and end up dying for it, that really hurts the true love element. In my book, it makes Sizuru's love look like the real thing, but it makes Kotarou look like he's more concerned with Kotori than with his own safety or for his "girlfriend's" happiness. Of course if you want to believe this as being a true love story, as what it's portrayed as at the end, you could just take your point of view that going against Sizuru's wishes isn't a big deal since Kotori is a friend. I dont' think either opinion is "wrong", but I find this latter view to be hard to believe.

Originally Posted by johnishida

Spoiler for Rewrite's Theme:

It is complicated but, it should be considered "a truth" in all the individual routes simply because is established before the said routes start. I don't think it can be simply denied in the routes different from Kotori's.

It seems strange, the other classmates aren't so chummy with him anywhere else except after he goes unconscious after meeting Kagari again in Kotori's route. It's
no big deal though. There just seems to be a lot of strange things with this plot twist. Like if Guardian wiped his memory and put him back into middle school, etc, how come they wouldn't be keeping a stronger eye on him? They even let him join Gaia in other routes. Oh well, it's not like it makes a difference in the story or changes a view on an important point of the story if we can disprove or substantiate it. This is a really stupid thing to nitpick at, there are a dozen other things I'd rather discuss than this...

Originally Posted by etalocohc84

Some random thoughts:

Spoiler for Terra route:

Also, since Kagari turns Earth back millions of years, doesn't that mean all the previous judgments of Kagari(S) repeat again? Maybe that includes the one Sakuya is involved with and that is how he came back at the ending.

Finally, I really hate how Kashima Sakura just drops dead at the ending. She was supposed to be the representation of all the hatred in the world, yet she dies without paying for her crimes or even feeling any regret. Brenda and the Bishop may have been stopped in Terra route, but I feel they too didn't get their just deserts. I wish KEY makes an addition epilogue or route that corrects this feeling.

Spoiler for Terra route:

But Sakuya at the end "Welcomes back" Kotarou, so unless he met Kotarou during Terra, he has been waiting a long time(600 million years for evolution?). By the way, Sakuya is able to remember his previous life before turning into a tree. I would guess Kotarou should be able to do the same eventually if he doesn't already at the end of Terra.

Another interesting thing, is if all the tragedies still happen to Lucia? It seems like she would have a tough time getting medicine to cover up her poison without guardian existing anymore.

[Balzac]

Originally Posted by etalocohc84

Some random thoughts:

Spoiler for Terra route:

I have been wondering, should Earth's Kagari and Moon's Kagari be considered separate existences since they have different memories? Because if they are, doesn't it count as cheating since Moon!Kotarou loves the Kagari in the moon and Terra!Kotarou loves the one on Earth? Pochi might even fall back in love with Moon's Kagari. I can understand if it were alternate universes, but this is the same Kotarou and different Kagari(s).

Also, since Kagari turns Earth back millions of years, doesn't that mean all the previous judgments of Kagari(S) repeat again? Maybe that includes the one Sakuya is involved with and that is how he came back at the ending.

Finally, I really hate how Kashima Sakura just drops dead at the ending. She was supposed to be the representation of all the hatred in the world, yet she dies without paying for her crimes or even feeling any regret. Brenda and the Bishop may have been stopped in Terra route, but I feel they too didn't get their just deserts. I wish KEY makes an addition epilogue or route that corrects this feeling.

Spoiler:

Yes, every Kagari can be said to be a different existence every time it is born. Moon Kagari draws from the Moon's energies while the Earth Kagaris are different each time. They share memories in that they refer to the insubstantial "force" (maybe Aurora) that permeates the world. Maybe even the star is sentient, and it watched over Earth, raining down judgement when necessary. Interpret it however you will.

The Kotarou of Terra is a radically different entity, even if the base is essentially the same. As I adhere to my theory of cyclical history (which raises the question of the Sun's age in Terra, though understandably the game and I both choose to discount that speculation), I would say that there had been no judgements (which means that the Kagari wasn't responsible for destruction) or that the history of Earth had been radically changed as per the new executed theory by the Moon's Kagari that it no longer needed judgements (There are no indications that the Earth can just "rejuvenate" lost energy.)

I believe Sakuya's existence was obliterated during the end of Moon, being that the possibility of his existing, which enabled him to reinforce the front, was destroyed once and for all. Contrast this to Yoshino's troupe and the Occult research group which are merely summoned from the Moon Kotarou's memories and do not represent their real existences.

Clever Sakuya was however, in my opinion, able to smuggle a bit of his consciousness into the Aurora streams. He was able to wait for a long, long time until the climax of Terra, where he appears before Kotarou one last time to test his resolve, though Kotarou doesn't know who he is.

Going back to changing history (Ceral), no, history was changed through Kotarou's actions. The girl's fates have been rewritten.

Unaware that, millions of years ago, in dimensions that may no longer be relevant, their evolutionary predecessors suffered gruesome "Key-like" fates. Bah.

Puts on tin-foil hat

Spoiler for Don't open if you don't want to listen to a madman's ramblings:

Spoiler for Conspiracy:

Spoiler for Madness:

Clever Key, underneath all the idealistic and romantic notions, what really lurks underneath this so-called game that professes the strength of humans is...

How easy humans can be manipulated to do a higher being's will.

In the darkness of the universe, the Kagari is like the light of an anglerfish. Appearing glorious and radiant, the fire that illuminates the way to the future.

A cold, uncertain future filled with the maws of unknown things that slither in the dark.

A higher consciousness that is incomprehensible to humans.

Kotarou doesn't even know if the words coming out of its mouth are really what it intends. Homo sapiens is merely necessary because they were the only intelligent beings around. This being had secretly hoped to evolve yet another entity, but no - somehow, it always comes back to humans evolving.

It's out there- patient. The ends of the heroine routes are certainly inconvenient, intelligent life is stubbornly rooted to its planet.

It needed a change.

It demanded a change.

The "star" is pleased.

Suddenly, the CG of Kagari grinning makes a whole lot more sense than that offered in Kotori's route.

...
I'm in despair! The insignificance of humans have left me in despair!

I wonder if it's turning into a common trend nowadays? Lovecraft lived decades ago...

Grr, won't get the music till next week. Ah well, I'm mostly rested from visual novels for now. (it's currently a very bloated industry, saturated by two parts mediocrity and one part sex)

[Tomoyo89]

Where are you getting the OST? I would also like to purchase it at some point in time.

[Aaerul]

copy paste from my blog

According to the latest issue of Push!!, Rewrite sold 24,424 copies. Only. How depressing.

History of KEY games + sales

1999 Kanon 156,046 (console figures included)
2000 Air 168,233 (console figures included)
2004 Clannad 100,560 (console figures included)
2007 Little Busters 40,500 (consoles numbers about 90,000)
2008 Little Busters EX 36,836
2011 Rewrite 24,424 (wut?)

[Klashikari]

There were a tad too many factors that weren't in favor for Rewrites sales sadly (and that's completely unrelated to its writing or story).
I personally wasn't expecting anything higher than 30K, but it is still sort of... "okay" if you look how things were rough.

[Ceral]

Originally Posted by Aaerul

copy paste from my blog

According to the latest issue of Push!!, Rewrite sold 24,424 copies. Only. How depressing.

History of KEY games + sales

1999 Kanon 156,046 (console figures included)
2000 Air 168,233 (console figures included)
2004 Clannad 100,560 (console figures included)
2007 Little Busters 40,500 (consoles numbers about 90,000)
2008 Little Busters EX 36,836
2011 Rewrite 24,424 (wut?)

Hmm very interesting. A 50% drop seems real bad, but I guess it's still in the same ballpark as Keys' other games if only PC sales are included, so it's not a complete flop, but still looks bad. I'm not sure I buy that the quake and the economy would have that bad of an impact on sales. A relatively popular show like Ore no Imouto ga Konna ni Kawaii wake ga nai sold ~17k blu-ray copies/volume before the quake as well as after the quake (Oricon via ANN articles). Although this is a very narrow sighted generalization, when looking at anime sales in general earlier, shows like K-On, Madoka, Ano Hana are still killing the sales charts as if the economy wasn't hurting.

I always thought the all ages thing was more of an artistic thing than a selling point to younger fans. Looking at EX and LB, it looks like 18+ doesn't really hurt the sales at all. I would usually expect a sequel to sell less than the original, 90% of the original seems to be a strong figure. Anyone who played Clannad or LB probably wasn't that far away from 18 anyway. I doubt any 13 yr olds would scream at their parents to get them a galge for the PC.

When I went off about the 2nd OP earlier, I was trying to say that it looked like a bad idea to create a battle galge aimed at teens and pre-teens when you're a company whose fan-base are on the whole, mostly eroge players who don't care about the age-limit. (I must say after playing, this game was much more adult from a psychological perspective than most 18+ games, it was very thought-provoking. There are a lot of feelings of confusion, anger, and regret, that I consider more adult than ero scenes or grotesque violence. It made me think as much as Final Fantasy 7 back when I played that game 14 years ago, when I was very young. Actually I might say Rewrite is the closest thing to FF VII in feel than any other game/anime/novel and vice versa.)

Too bad though, with the amount of perceived advertising, along with Key Loyalists, fans of the new authors, and hype from the battle scenes everyone else created, I thought sales would be a lot better. I guess chances of getting a sequel are rather bleak now. Despite the bad things I said about the last routes of the game, most of the first available routes had some golden moments in them, and I feel like each route ended just a little bit earlier than I would have liked, a sequel/spin-off is something I hope for. Those sales numbers aren't exactly good news.

[Klashikari]

Comparing Anime BD and Eroge/galge is a very very bad idea. Audience and context are arguably different.

The reasons you have mentioned are actually the very same that are factors that made the game not as successful as it could be.
The sales are actually not that bad considering all the factors against it.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Aaerul

copy paste from my blog

According to the latest issue of Push!!, Rewrite sold 24,424 copies. Only. How depressing.

History of KEY games + sales

1999 Kanon 156,046 (console figures included)
2000 Air 168,233 (console figures included)
2004 Clannad 100,560 (console figures included)
2007 Little Busters 40,500 (consoles numbers about 90,000)
2008 Little Busters EX 36,836
2011 Rewrite 24,424 (wut?)

Clannad figure doesn't include console ports, BTW. The PC version alone sold 100,560 units as of the end of 2004 (PS2 version of Clannad sold an extra ~30,000 copies, IIRC. Not sure about other platforms).

I always thought the all ages thing was more of an artistic thing than a selling point to younger fans.

Correct. Selling an all ages game is always a risk. However, companies that are confident in their brand power (and storytelling appeal of their games) can do it.

Anyway, some things to consider:

a) the VN market has gone on a downward spiral over the last 5-6 years. It's no longer what it used to be, so we can't expect the same level of sales
b) PCNEWS used to track sales, but they went bankrupt in early 2007. Any new numbers are provided by different companies, and they may not be fully comparable
c) By estimation, a typical galge customer plays for only five years. Beyond, the success of future games depends on how well they've attracted new customers
d) Since LB, there's a reputation that Jun Maeda can still write, but the rest of Key sucks

[RedKey]

Originally Posted by TJR

Correct. Selling an all ages game is always a risk. However, companies that are confident in their brand power (and storytelling appeal of their games) can do it.

I feel like I'm missing something here. Not going against your reasoning, just trying to understand - I'm far from being an expert in this kind of stuff. Wouldn't a R rated game appeal only to... well, 20+ aged people since we're talking about Japan? Doesn't that exclude the huge part of the videogame market that are the teenagers? Yet, eroges actually sell more that all-ages games? Does that mean that the majority of players are 18-20 years old or more? Or is it for some other, completely different reason?

[Klashikari]

You hardly see any japanese VN reader in their teens. Not saying it is that rare, but VN are in general for a very small niche market, vastly consisting of your usual "otaku" public.
This is also the reason that the major portions of VN sold in the market are actually eroge, sharing the high school romance setup a lot of times.

The ero appeal is always a sizable selling factor, that and the fact that it also "imply" themes involved can be mature (not saying an all ages VN cannot be mature, but you probably understood what I meant).
Even if the ero can be removed most of the time, without hurting the plot, well...

[RedKey]

Oh. I see, thanks for the explanation!

Anyway, finally got to begin Lucia's route. I'm greatly enjoying it, but

Spoiler for Lucia route (and some Kotori):

is the story of Asahi Haruka even connected to the overarching plot? This feels so different from Kotori's route, with dinosaurs, mamono, Kagari, Gaia and whatnot! Then again, I think I'm only at the beginning (Kotarou meeting possessed Lucia outside the shop).
Loved Lucia's monologue about her hopes and fears when she dreams about sunflowers withering and her character development in general. Ryukishi really knows how to get me pumped.

[Ceral]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Comparing Anime BD and Eroge/galge is a very very bad idea. Audience and context are arguably different.

The reasons you have mentioned are actually the very same that are factors that made the game not as successful as it could be.
The sales are actually not that bad considering all the factors against it.

Oreimo and Rewrite would be aimed at the same demographic, young adult males. If that same demographic is willing to fork over the same amount of money pre-quake vs post-quake for Oreimo, it doesn't seem far fetched to me to think that if they really wanted to, that the great majority of that demographic (I'm thinking something like 90%) could fork over the same amount of money for Rewrite too.

It's still the same demographic, are you trying to tell me Eroge/galge players are more stingy than Anime BD watchers after the quake?

As for the economy, I'm pretty sure they expected Rewrite to do a lot better than Kud Wafter which came out last year and did a respectable ~22k for an even more niche spin-off (Sales figure rom Aaerul's site). I'd have to check the credits when I have more freetime, but I'm pretty sure the staff for Rewrite are humongous when compared to that of KW (Making Rewrite not that profitable off of copies sold alone). The sales numbers for Rewrite seem disappointing to me no matter how you try to spin it. Maybe they can make up for it by selling a ton of merchandise though?


Ahaha, new Lucia pic I haven't seen before:

Spoiler for Pic for space:

From Amiami:

[Jao]

Originally Posted by Ceral

Oreimo and Rewrite would be aimed at the same demographic, young adult males.

You only have to compare the amount of people browsing moe anime threads to those browsing galge game threads at any given time to see how bullshit that comparison is.

Visual novel playing is far far more niche a hobby than anime watching. Seriously.

[Leo_Otaku]

I would really love to hear what Klashikari's opinion of the entire game was like as well ^-^

I would also disagree with oreimo/ rewrite comparison, anime vs PC world is a different market in general.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ceral

It's still the same demographic, are you trying to tell me Eroge/galge players are more stingy than Anime BD watchers after the quake?

They are absolutely not the same demographic.
Galge/Eroge in general are -much- more niche than any non erotic anime series ever. Regardless its age limitation or the brand, it is definitely not the same consumers.

As for the economy, I'm pretty sure they expected Rewrite to do a lot better than Kud Wafter which came out last year and did a respectable ~22k for an even more niche spin-off (Sales figure rom Aaerul's site). I'd have to check the credits when I have more freetime, but I'm pretty sure the staff for Rewrite are humongous when compared to that of KW (Making Rewrite not that profitable off of copies sold alone). The sales numbers for Rewrite seem disappointing to me no matter how you try to spin it. Maybe they can make up for it by selling a ton of merchandise though?

I really don't get why you can compare Kud Wafter with Rewrite:
-Kud Wafter had a better momentum, considering the titles released at the same period compared to Rewrite (june 2011 had more release in that regard)
-Kud Wafter is a spin off of an already established franchise, which means people have a better idea what to expect.
-Kud Wafter is cheaper by a huge margin. Regardless how short it is compared to rewrite, the fact its price tag is nearly 50% lower than Rewrite makes it easier to buy it.
-Kud Wafter is far more traditional in presentation than Rewrite, and it is quite a given when you compare how both games were portrayed during their respective marketing process.
-Loli sell. True story.

Even if Rewrite is a flagship title, it doesn't mean it should completely outclass a spin off, especially when the conditions regarding that spin off are way more favorable than the main title itself.

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

I would really love to hear what Klashikari's opinion of the entire game was like as well ^-^

I still have Terra left for me, but right now, I have nearly no spare time for VN whatsoever, and I'm trying to sort things out before I can indulge myself.

[Ceral]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

They are absolutely not the same demographic.
Galge/Eroge in general are -much- more niche than any non erotic anime series ever. Regardless its age limitation or the brand, it is definitely not the same consumers.

I really don't get why you can compare Kud Wafter with Rewrite:
-Kud Wafter had a better momentum, considering the titles released at the same period compared to Rewrite (june 2011 had more release in that regard)
-Kud Wafter is a spin off of an already established franchise, which means people have a better idea what to expect.
-Kud Wafter is cheaper by a huge margin. Regardless how short it is compared to rewrite, the fact its price tag is nearly 50% lower than Rewrite makes it easier to buy it.
-Kud Wafter is far more traditional in presentation than Rewrite, and it is quite a given when you compare how both games were portrayed during their respective marketing process.
-Loli sell. True story.

Even if Rewrite is a flagship title, it doesn't mean it should completely outclass a spin off, especially when the conditions regarding that spin off are way more favorable than the main title itself.


I still have Terra left for me, but right now, I have nearly no spare time for VN whatsoever, and I'm trying to sort things out before I can indulge myself.

Guys, I'm talking about the same demographic? (I.E. same age, sex, class. Nothing about personal tastes. Whenever I hear talk about television ratings, it's always about age and gender only.) Young-middle aged males who have a job who can pay for an ~8000￥ game? I'm not saying everyone who likes Rewrite buys Oreimo, that's not my argument at all. The idea I'm trying to convey is I seriously doubt the quake would effect young males who play eroge more than those who watch anime like Oreimo. Why would a quake specifically target young males who only play Eroge? That seems like a very dumb argument. The quake affected all young males regardless of their hobbies, if someone has proof that sales of everything that young males buy are down 50% on average than show me the proof. People who buy Oreimo aren't the people who bought Rewrite, no one is arguing that, but people who bought Oreimo were affected by the quake too, but that didn't stop them from buying the next volume, that's what I'm saying by my observation. Where you guys come up with me arguing that Oreimo fans are the same exact people who buy Rewrite is beyond me...

Yes, I'll give you 6000￥ vs 9000￥ retail might help sales. But I strongly disagree about it having other favorable conditions. Rewrite has it's own loli as well as six other strongly developed routes which captures a much wider audience than just the lolicon (As well as still luring the lolicon with Shizuru). With all of it's routes and quests Rewrite is a HUGE game compared to Kud Wafter, which justifies the larger price. Being a spinoff does not guarantee sells, anyone who played LB and didn't care much for Kud will already know that the game is not for them. Likely the only people who will buy the game are those who played LB and liked Kud, almost guaranteeing that the sales will only be a fraction of LB. With the new authors who span from other genres, as well as a "base" staff from Key, Rewrite should have had more mass appeal. My point is, people have money to spend on eroge/galge if they want to.

With them branching out to do other things, the expectation was for them to grab a wider audience and do better sales. The fact that they can do as many sales with a smaller staff and one writer aimed at an audience of eroge players who are interested only in loli, must make them think twice about what happened with Rewrite. Yes, KW is at a lower price, but I'm still guessing KW at this point is much more profitable if we only count revenue from copies sold (I'll bet a whole lot more of merchandise sells when you have 6 main heroines vs 1 and a few side characters.) A near 50% drop in sales for the flagship title has much more problems than just economic factors. I'll say it again, it's not like the quake targetted only eroge players. I doubt 15,000 eroge players said I'm not going to buy Rewrite because of the quake. IMO it definitely looks like other reasons.

Klashikari, didn't you skip most of Akane's route and drop Terra's route to play Noble Works? That's not quite a ringing endorsement, eh? Despite it's length, I think most people would continue to play if they found it interesting even if they didn't think they didn't have the time to "Indulge" in it to it's fullest. Even if you think what you're going to read is fun anyway, the fact that you put it on hold says that there's something "Different", about this galge... no? To completely ignore that and say there's nothing wrong with the writing or story seems very short sighted to me, especially when you found problems with the writing yourself personally.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ceral

Guys, I'm talking about the same demographic? (I.E. same age, sex, class. Nothing about personal tastes. Whenever I hear talk about television ratings, it's always about age and gender only.)
Young-middle aged males who have a job who can pay for an ~8000￥ game? I'm not saying everyone who likes Rewrite buys Oreimo, that's not my argument at all. The idea I'm trying to convey is I seriously doubt the quake would effect young males who play eroge more than those who watch anime like Oreimo.

Demographic implies also the audience targeted towards X or Y product.
Why would a mainstream shounen series have more audience % than a harem romance equally targeted to the same gender and age range?
Demographic isn't only about age and gender, it also involves the type of audience, and how certain things are more prone to attract the general public or niche fanbase.

For instance, with your own criteria, OreImo and Naruto has the same targeted demographic, yet their sales are completely on a different league (and don't tell me it is because of writing difference...).
It is the genre that shifts dramatically the targeted demographic.

Why would a quake specifically target young males who only play Eroge? That seems like a very dumb argument. The quake affected all young males regardless of their hobbies, if someone has proof that sales of everything that young males buy are down 50% on average than show me the proof. People who buy Oreimo aren't the people who bought Rewrite, no one is arguing that, but people who bought Oreimo were affected by the quake too, but that didn't stop them from buying the next volume, that's what I'm saying by my observation. Where you guys come up with me arguing that Oreimo fans are the same exact people who buy Rewrite is beyond me...

The burden of proof has nothing to do with your over generalization. The hobbies are drastically different and are also especially not mutually exclusive.
Anime fans may not be eroge players, while a huge chunk of eroge players do follow anime series in general. From this perspective, the former spend on -less stuff- than the latter who have more things on their plate.
That's also gross generalization but it gives you the idea how the groups aren't exactly sharing the same basis of expenses whatsoever.

Yes, I'll give you 6000￥ vs 9000￥ retail might help sales. But I strongly disagree about it having other favorable conditions. Rewrite has it's own loli as well as six other strongly developed routes which captures a much wider audience than just the lolicon (As well as still luring the lolicon with Shizuru).

That's not the point. Kud Wafter offers something Rewrite don't: porn with a loli.
Of course, I do not pretend that people will buy KW only for that, but there is a certain portion of the audience getting more reason with just that factor.

With all of it's routes and quests Rewrite is a HUGE game compared to Kud Wafter, which justifies the larger price. Being a spinoff does not guarantee sells, anyone who played LB and didn't care much for Kud will already know that the game is not for them. Likely the only people who will buy the game are those who played LB and liked Kud, almost guaranteeing that the sales will only be a fraction of LB. With the new authors who span from other genres, as well as a "base" staff from Key, Rewrite should have had more mass appeal. My point is, people have money to spend on eroge/galge if they want to.

And how Rewrite was supposed to have a larger appeal? Heck you said it yourself countless times: you were worried like hell by the "shounen" aspect of the story.
A lot of people were wondering if Key wasn't shifting genre too dramatically, and the absolute fact there is no data about it before playing it aside of premises and setup don't help. Kud Wafter has arguably a better appeal because of LB, even if there are people who wouldn't dig in (like me).

Klashikari, didn't you skip most of Akane's route and drop Terra's route to play Noble Works? That's not quite a ringing endorsement, eh? Despite it's length, I think most people would continue to play if they found it interesting even if they didn't think they didn't have the time to "Indulge" in it to it's fullest.

I certainly believe you know little to nothing of my habits, so I wonder why you can make such assumption.
Truth that I don't have much liking towards Akane's route, and? What does it has anything to do here? Moreso: there is no reason my own take of the VN has any impact or any relevancy to the game popularity or strengths whatsoever.
I don't represent a majority whatsoever, and I rarely read a VN in its entierety in a single run, especially past a certain length (heck, Noble Works is arguably shorter than Rewrite and I only read 2 of the 5 routes despite I enjoy it as well).
I do enjoy things at my own pace, and there are extremely rare cases where I actually read everything within a week or something.

Even if you think what you're going to read is fun anyway, the fact that you put it on hold says that there's something "Different", about this galge... no? To completely ignore that and say there's nothing wrong with the writing or story seems very short sighted to me, especially when you found problems with the writing yourself personally.

I never said there isn't any writing issues. I said: there were issues -outside- of the writing that wasn't in favor to Rewrite.

[Ceral]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Demographic implies also the audience targeted towards X or Y product.
Why would a mainstream shounen series have more audience % than a harem romance equally targeted to the same gender and age range?
Demographic isn't only about age and gender, it also involves the type of audience, and how certain things are more prone to attract the general public or niche fanbase.

For instance, with your own criteria, OreImo and Naruto has the same targeted demographic, yet their sales are completely on a different league (and don't tell me it is because of writing difference...)

Shonen is by it's definition aimed at preteens, it's a show primarily aimed at the males below 18- age group. OreImo is most definitely a seinen show aimed at males 18+ who have the money to burn on dvds/blu-rays. Rewrite is definitely aimed at males 18+ as well.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The burden of proof has nothing to do with your over generalization. The hobbies are drastically different and are also especially not mutually exclusive.
Anime fans may not be eroge players, while a huge chunk of eroge players do follow anime series in general. From this perspective, the former spend on -less stuff- than the latter who have more things on their plate.
That's also gross generalization but it gives you the idea how the groups aren't exactly sharing the same basis of expenses whatsoever.

If the 18+ males group were truly hurting I think sales across the board for everything aimed at them would be down(besides essentials, Oreimo definitely is not an essential ). I really don't want to argue that Oreimo and Rewrite are similar forms of entertainment. But I hope you can see that they do have a lot in common, that they are aimed at the same gender and age group, and also have similar costs. Why that different subgroups of that same group would budget their finances because of economic factors to cut Rewrite but not Oreimo out of their expenses in a manner that you would see such a drastic plunge in sales?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's not the point. Kud Wafter offers something Rewrite don't: porn with a loli.
Of course, I do not pretend that people will buy KW only for that, but there is a certain portion of the audience getting more reason with just that factor.

Ugh, don't remind me. Or maybe yes, remind me .
All of you bastards better have bought Rewrite, it's like 10x easier to import because it's not ero. Ironically I feel like I got slapped in the face with the Japan only warning. Meh I feel like Rewrite should have done a lot more than Kud Wafter, I'd like to believe it was only economic factors but it's naive IMO.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And how Rewrite was supposed to have a larger appeal? Heck you said it yourself countless times: you were worried like hell by the "shounen" aspect of the story.
A lot of people were wondering if Key wasn't shifting genre too dramatically, and the absolute fact there is no data about it before playing it aside of premises and setup don't help. Kud Wafter has arguably a better appeal because of LB, even if there are people who wouldn't dig in (like me).

Aye, but I bought it anyway because I thought, or rather, I actually knew it still appealed to me from playing the trial version. Rewrite confused me, bored me, and dazzled me with it's greatness sometimes. Personally I didn't mind the genre shift, but the parts that dragged were close to being unforgivable. I especially feel sad that the game didn't have any "Poignant" climax scene. That's the trade-off for this genre shift battle galge that I regret the most. A lot of people do seem to think it's poignant though, I'm thinking about rereading it again to try to understand that point of view... hmm.

Well, I think Key's hope was that they would grab a whole lot more fans than just the usual crowd with the genre shift game, even though I had my reservations, I still expected sales to be better, but I was weary of what new kind of game they were making, and if they had tried too hard to attract the shonen 18- crowd. Ultimately, I don't think they writers did much at all to attract the 18- crowd, although they did make something very different and... unique. At least compared to the things I played. More than anything with the tag "Moe", it reminds me of FF VII, Xenogears, I think this game would have fared better as an RPG. Maybe that hurt the game since it's supposed to be a galge about the heroine's. Meh, I don't even know what I'm talking about now. They did something strange and it doesn't seem to have paid off. They lost buyers instead of gaining more. Whatever the factors are, worse sales are just bad. Personally I'm unsatisfied with the story, I didn't have a problem with the game up until the opening day of sales though and a month after that too. Perhaps those who wait awhile to get the game are getting put off by the more extreme reviews. Is it just the economy? Is it just the quake? It would be nice to believe it was if you were Key or really liked Rewrite, but I think it's more than that.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I certainly believe you know little to nothing of my habits, so I wonder why you can make such assumption.
Truth that I don't have much liking towards Akane's route, and? What does it has anything to do here? Moreso: there is no reason my own take of the VN has any impact or any relevancy to the game popularity or strengths whatsoever.
I don't represent a majority whatsoever, and I rarely read a VN in its entierety, especially past a certain length (heck, Noble Works is arguably shorter than Rewrite and I only read 2 of the 5 routes despite I enjoy it as well).

I know nothing about you, but you did say:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There were a tad too many factors that weren't in favor for Rewrites sales sadly (and that's completely unrelated to its writing or story).
I personally wasn't expecting anything higher than 30K, but it is still sort of... "okay" if you look how things were rough.

When you say "completely unrelated", I took it like you were not blaming the writing or story at all. It sounds weird to me to hear someone complain about some of the writing and drop the game during the finale route and then claim the writing and story were "Completely unrelated" to the sales. But, I see now you're just talking about the factors though with that comment and thought that the writing may have possibly affected sales?...


Edit: If you care about the semantics of demographic and because you guys make me want to be petty: (From wiki, which despite what your professors will say is almost always quite true. At least this should prove that I'm not insane, which I feel like when talking to most of you. Note, I am not telling you it's ok to quote wiki for your thesis.) "Demographics are the statistical characteristics of a population. These types of data are used widely in sociology (and especially in the subfield of demography), public policy, and marketing. Commonly examined demographics include gender, race, age, disabilities, mobility, home ownership, employment status, and even location. Demographic trends describe the changes in demographics in a population over time (for example, the average age of a population may increase or decrease over time). Both distributions and trends of values within a demographic variable are of interest.

Marketers typically combine several variables to define a demographic profile. A demographic profile (often shortened to "a demographic") provides enough information about the typical member of this group to create a mental picture of this hypothetical aggregate. For example, a marketer might speak of the single, female, middle-class, age 18 to 24, college educated demographic.

Marketing researchers typically have two objectives in this regard: first to determine what segments or subgroups exist in the overall population; and secondly to create a clear and complete picture of the characteristics of a typical member of each of these segments. Once these profiles are constructed, they can be used to develop a marketing strategy and marketing plan. The five types of demographics for marketing are age, gender, income level, race and ethnicity."

If I ever hear someone talk about the visual novel or anime watching demographic, that will be a first.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ceral

Shonen is by it's definition is aimed at preteens, it's a show primarily aimed at the males below 18- age group. OreImo is most definitely a seinen show aimed at males 18+ who have the money to burn on dvds/blu-rays. Rewrite is definitely aimed at males 18+ as well.

...Considering the themes and everything brought on the face in OreImo, I have hard time to consider it as seinen, but your milage may vary.

If the 18+ males group were truly hurting I think sales across the board for everything aimed at them would be down(besides essentials, Oreimo definitely is not an essential ). I really don't want to argue that Oreimo and Rewrite are similar forms of entertainment. But I hope you can see that they do have a lot in common, that they are aimed at the same gender and age group, and also have similar costs. Why that different subgroups of that same group would budget their finances because of economic factors to cut Rewrite but not Oreimo out of there expenses in a manner that you would see such a drastic plunge in sales?

And that's why we talked about audience, and market. Anime and Eroge/Galge market are no way similar.

Ugh, don't remind me. Or maybe yes, remind me .
All of you bastards better have bought Rewrite, it's like 10x easier to import because it's not ero. Ironically I feel like I got slapped in the face with the Japan only warning. Meh I feel like Rewrite should have done a lot more than Kud Wafter, I'd like to believe it was only economic factors but it's naive IMO.

You wound me. There, happy?
And I don't think it is that hard to import eroge anyway (I do have Little Busters! EX first press release, and that really didn't take any effort, except paypal abuse). As I said though, too much factors were against Rewrite, even some of those who made me buy it, despite barely playing the trials.
Economic factors are also in the equation, but critics etc are generally not that much of issue, unless it is a true kusoge or kamige.
Initial release date is the major key moment for a product sales in Japan, especially with such hobbies, and having less people interested from the bat hurts -a lot-. This is even more true for console and PC games. This is why marketing (ads, trials etc) are the key point of it. Even if Key had a decent marketing direction, it was hindered by 2 majors issues: ["chuuni" content] [Maeda absent in the party].

When you say "completely unrelated", I took it like you were not blaming the writing or story at all. It sounds weird to me to hear someone complain about some of the writing and drop the game during the finale route and then claim the writing and story were "Completely unrelated" to the sales. But, I see now you're just talking about the factors though with that comment and thought that the writing may have possibly affected sales?...

I implied that there are factors external to the game (hence writing etc) that certainly contributed a lot for a very discomfort situation before the game was about to be released.

Edit: If you care about the semantics of demographic and because you guys make me want to be petty:

You are the one bringing up the said words yourself.
I didn't use demographics first, I used "audience and context". To which you responded with "demographic", so I felt to oblidge and use the same word.
But even on the demographic level, I really can't put OreImo in +18, and mentions of eroge and some adult themes hardly switch it into "seinen".