Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

There's still no reason for Israel to bomb Gaza. The rockets have killed like 2 people, the bombings 1000. If everyone just ignores Hamas (since they're crazy) and gives the Palestinian PEOPLE the support they need to kick out such groups (they elected hamas largely because they felt there was no other way), then things would be a lot better. But no, Israel decides that it has to protect it's image as the "tough bastard" and now a thousand people are dead.

I don't care that hamas is using rockets and suicide tactics, or that Israel is "defending" itself (from rockets that kill 2 people?). The fact is that without the Israeli intervention, which is needless beyond the Israeli leaders' wish to prove their might, a lot less people would be killed.



Quoting that Iranian figurehead-president again? lol. Defend? Last time I checked airstrikes and mechanized armies are OFFENSIVE WEAPONS.

Some unguided, practically harmless rockets are not a valid reason for an invasion and 1000 dead. Do the math and it'll all work out.

What makes it OK for Palis to pull the trigger while Israel cannot? Is it because they're poor? oppressed? and starving? Since when did being destitute become a free pass to lob rockets indiscriminately?

Is that some mutation of your racist affirmative action philosophy or whatever?


The invasion was valid. Hamas IS the GOVERNMENT in Gaza. Therefore, their aggression is an act of war, not terrorism. And acts of war are met with MILITARY means.

Your posts would hold water if Fatah was in control there, but they're not.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Thingle

What makes it OK for Palis to pull the trigger while Israel cannot? Is it because they're poor? oppressed? and starving? Since when did being destitute become a free pass to lob rockets indiscriminately?

When did the Palestinians attack Israel? I thought the Hamas and the Palestinian government were two opposing forces of a single place. Thus, your questions are deemed invalid.

The invasion was valid. Hamas IS the GOVERNMENT in Gaza. Therefore, their aggression is an act of war, not terrorism. And acts of war are met with MILITARY means.

Exactly! Israel's invasion of Gaza was valid which also proves that the rocket attacks on Israel were also valid. After all, the deaths of non-combatant Palestinians were considered an act of justice. It is only fair for them to attack each other, while nobody intervenes.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

In my opinion, Hamas provoked Israel with rocket attacks that's why Israel attacked. Even Egypt which is a muslim country blames Hamas for the war.

That's because Egypt is an American ally.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

dont just look at the numbers, look at the reasons behind the numbers
its like saying that germany and japan were right and the allies were wrong in WWII becouse there was more death in germany and japan
you have to look at motives and reasons

Well, I think the Allies were right in WWII and I'm still very critical of things like the bombing of German civilians and the internment of Japanese-Canadians.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

The deaths of Palestinians are absolutely horrendous, but cannot be laid at Israel's feet. Hamas wants to butcher its own people, whether by strapping bombs to them personally, or firing rockets from a crowd. They do it because they know it will get them support from certain people. They celebrate the deaths of Palestinians.

I don't envy Israel's situation, but merely by pulling the trigger you become partially responsible for the resulting damage. Also, as soon as you do this you're playing by Hamas' playbook. That means they're the ones controlling the narrative.

But collateral when attacking actual military targets is less an issue for me than intentionally targetting civilian assets because they "might" have military value.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

What we really need is the world to agree that Hamas' tactics are simply not acceptable. Hamas would lose support if that happened. Israel is doing the right thing by not giving in to such disgusting methods.

The world by and large doesn't consider Hamas' tactics acceptable. That's why they're so completely isolated.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

The world is being let down by people who fall for Hamas' plan to disgust us so much we just throw our arms up and say "fine! You win."

[/Quote]

A lot of critics of Israel, myself included, would not encourage Israel to tell Hamas it's won regardless of how we might preach more restraint. Again, your problem here seem to be that you're seeing this war in a very binary matter.

[bladeofdarkness]

Exactly! Israel's invasion of Gaza was valid which also proves that the rocket attacks on Israel were also valid. After all, the deaths of non-combatant Palestinians were considered an act of justice. It is only fair for them to attack each other, while nobody intervenes.

then how would you explain the hamas murdering their own people as justified ?
both in litteral terms - as in killing those who speak out against them
and in practical terms - using them as shields in the hopes that when israel kills them it would look good on TV
is that a "valid" course of action then ?

and the israeli attack was in responce to the rocket attacks
not the other way around

[Demongod86]

See here's the thing that really eats at me:

Why is *Israel* responsible for Gaza? Why must it provide electricity, water, allow humanitarian aid to get through, etc...?

Gazans are not Israelis in any way, shape, or form. Jews in 1940 Germany WERE Germans so what Germany was doing it was doing to its own citizens.

Israel is blocking itself off from a completely different people. It should not be responsible for providing food or water or electricity or anything, and has every right to close off the border from their own end. If I saw a disgusting bum outside my house, I should have every right to shut the door, not feed him breakfast every day.

The solution to the crisis would simply be to make Hamas responsible for providing the people of Gaza with food, water, electricity, etc...

Israel should not be forced to open its own borders. It has every right in the world to keep Gazans from their own soil, simply because Israel is its own sovereign nation.

If the people inside Gaza die because they can't provide for themselves, that is not Israel's fault. Not even by an iota.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

See here's the thing that really eats at me:

Why is *Israel* responsible for Gaza? Why must it provide electricity, water, allow humanitarian aid to get through, etc...?

Gazans are not Israelis in any way, shape, or form. Jews in 1940 Germany WERE Germans so what Germany was doing it was doing to its own citizens.

Israel is blocking itself off from a completely different people. It should not be responsible for providing food or water or electricity or anything, and has every right to close off the border from their own end. If I saw a disgusting bum outside my house, I should have every right to shut the door, not feed him breakfast every day.

The solution to the crisis would simply be to make Hamas responsible for providing the people of Gaza with food, water, electricity, etc...

Israel should not be forced to open its own borders. It has every right in the world to keep Gazans from their own soil, simply because Israel is its own sovereign nation.

If the people inside Gaza die because they can't provide for themselves, that is not Israel's fault. Not even by an iota.

I'm trying to remember if the Israeli Navy has a blockade of Gaza's coastline. If it does, that goes a little beyond a right as a sovereign nation.

[bladeofdarkness]

not an option at this stage
the reason israel is responsible for the strip is becouse there is not internal power capable of taking care of it
sad as it is to admit, if israel closes off all the passes completely
within one month you would have exactly two kinds of people in gaza
the dead, and the canibals
so thats not an option from a humaniterian POV
the whole point of the palestinian authority was to form a body of self goverment that would take care of these things and prepare gaza and the west bank for independence
but they dont have a foot hold in the gaza strip anymore
as long as gaza isnt a country, its still israeli's responsibility

please read this note

and while we are on the subject i would like to post something new that has just come to my attention
it was posted on israeli news websites (belonging to internationally respected news papers) and news broadcasts
and claims to represent a report coming from an italian newspaper called "Corriere della Sera"(the reporters name is lorenszo calmonezi) speaking to a palestinian doctor in the shifa hospital in the gaza strip (who for for obvius reasons remains un-named)
unfortonaltly i dont know much about this paper nor do i have a link for a page (since i cant read italian)
i have the link to the israeli page but it is (naturally) in hebrow
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1057870.html
thus i can only post it for now in the hopes that in the coming days someone can post a more credible source

i will however translate what it says on the headline
feel free to take this with amazing amounts of sult for now, but hopefully in the coming days there would be more about this

CIVILIANS IN THE GAZA STRIP TO Corriere della Sera REPORTER, "HAMAS WANTED THE ISRAELIS TO SHOOT AT OUR HOMES"
and below that it says
DOCTOR IN SHIFA HOSPITAL TELLS REPORTER "THE DEATH TOLL MUCH LOWER THEN CLAIMED, COULD BE ONLY A FEW HUNDREDS

it farther states that the death toll consists mostly of young men between the ages of 17-23 (about the age you would expect millitents to be) and that the number of wounded is also lower then claimed (says that there are many empty beds in several hospitals that he was in)
and makes comments about the hamas making use of ambulances and UN aid stations as places from which to fire

i again state outright TAKE THIS WITH HUGE AMOUNTS OF SULT
but considering that they stated the name of both the paper and reporter
its less liikely to just be made up by israel
take it as you will

P.S
i now have an english version
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...660423,00.html
as well as a jerusalem post page that states that while the numbers may be higher then what this guy thinks
they are still mainly hamas activists
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

dont just look at the numbers, look at the reasons behind the numbers
its like saying that germany and japan were right and the allies were wrong in WWII becouse there was more death in germany and japan
you have to look at motives and reasons

Even if you had a point here, you'd still be wrong. China and Russia had the biggest deathtolls, not Germany and Japan.

As for reasons in this conflict, both sides have valid grievences with the other. The whole thing isn't just about destroying Israel as you want to believe. It's about actual things Israel is doing right now, and has been doing for the past several years. Things like the blockade, cutting basic services, water rights. Of course it's so much easier to point to the other guy and say, "He wants to destroy Israel, we're innocent and arent' to blame." When you look at the situation from a more objective standpoint though, it becomes clear. Both sides are to blame and neither side wants to accept their own responsibility in perpetuating the conflict. Each side chooses to repeat the same things that are giving the other side a reason to fight.
[removed by moderator]

[Shadow Kira01]

I think the best solution to this would be for the Obama Administration to intervene and..

1) Pick a deserted island and let both the IDF and the Hamas fight it out.
2) Make Gaza the second Afganistan.

Option 1 is merely a joke, since this violates the international law set by the United Nations.

Option 2 is quite the possible route, considering that the new Secretary of State is pro-Israel. Generally, the IDF allied with the US soldiers will be mowing down Gaza, wiping out every single Hamas (or more possibly, the "shoot everything that moves" tactic that the US soldiers had adopted in every war), then borrow tons of money off the international bank and start rebuilding Gaza and providing welfare (compensation) to the victims of the Gaza Massacre.

Afghanistan was originally a base in which the US troops invest on to fend for Communist USSR. The "terrorists" of modern times were formerly trained and supported by the US government on their worldwide anti-communist campaign, mainly targetting the USSR. However, when things gone wrong, it became the other way around. Not exactly but the US ended up fighting Afghanistan instead of USSR.

[bladeofdarkness]

well...
option 1 isnt practical since you wouldnt get hamas to agree to it
they wouldnt last 24 hours
thats why they are hiding behind women and children and inside schools, UN shelters and hospitals

option 2 could work easily if the US and the europen comnuity just steps up and says that it supports such a move
if your worried about american soldiers being too easy on the trigger then just leave them out of it (they arent needed in this kind of thing anyway, the IDF is more then enough)
wipe out hamas in a few months to a year (at least get rid of all the leadership in gaza)
re-build the strip using saudi money (already collected)
and using the already existing palestinian authority as the ruling body in gaza (since they already ARE recongnized internatonally as the only force premited to speak for the palestinian people)
then the strip spends several years under the civil rule of the palestinian authority with backing from the IDF to keep the peace (and crackdown on any millitent oppositon)
during these years make damn sure that the strip develops into what it was starting to shape up into before hamas took over (an actual country shaped object) by providing funding and aid
and give the people in gaza a chance to see what life could be like living side by side with israel as an ally rather then an enemy or an occupair (since right now there isnt an occupation in gaza)

but as i said, its not likely at this stage

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

well...
option 1 isnt practical since you wouldnt get hamas to agree to it
they wouldnt last 24 hours
thats why they are hiding behind women and children and inside schools, UN shelters and hospitals

If it is an open field with absolutely no places to hide.
Hamas might not even last 12 hrs.

Eventhough it's already obvious by my posts in this thread that I'm an Israel supporter. Last night I remembered the picture I've seen on the newspaper about Palestinian refugees taking turns sleeping because there's not enough matresses for them to sleep in and they don't even have gas to cook their food. They're so pitiful, makes me really sad each time I remember that news article... I hope the peace talks work for real now. -_____-

[bladeofdarkness]

as much as i hope that to be the case (and as much as i hate seeing people suffer)
i dont think much peace would come out of those talks for now
but they will get aid, which is better then nothing

the first thing hamas did after israel started to pull out of gaza was to declare VICTORY
to say that they have driven the israelis out of gaza
and that this is proof that the "mukawaba" or ressistance is the only path for the palestinian people
and to (naturally) declare that they will keep on fighting

the people in gaza would not have any chance of peace as long as hamas is in power for the simple reason that hamas does not serve the palestinian cause
its serves the iranian one
which is why khalid mashal can sit in a hotel room in damasces while gaza is bombed and tell his people to "keep on fighting till the last drop of palestinian blood"

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

Afghanistan was originally a base in which the US troops invest on to fend for Communist USSR. The "terrorists" of modern times were formerly trained and supported by the US government on their worldwide anti-communist campaign, mainly targetting the USSR. However, when things gone wrong, it became the other way around. Not exactly but the US ended up fighting Afghanistan instead of USSR.

If you put that answer down for a world history test you would have failed

Several countries supplied aid to Afghanistan after the fighting started, the US was one of those countries. The only countries that supplied any troops were some of the neighboring nations. The only training they got from the US was on the operation of the stinger missiles we supplied them with, and that was done by the CIA rather than the military.

As to the current situation in Afghanistan, there are several nations there right now. US, UK, France, Canada, and Germany are the major contributors of troops, but there are quite a few others there as well.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

See here's the thing that really eats at me:

Why is *Israel* responsible for Gaza? Why must it provide electricity, water, allow humanitarian aid to get through, etc...?

Gazans are not Israelis in any way, shape, or form. Jews in 1940 Germany WERE Germans so what Germany was doing it was doing to its own citizens.

Israel is blocking itself off from a completely different people. It should not be responsible for providing food or water or electricity or anything, and has every right to close off the border from their own end. If I saw a disgusting bum outside my house, I should have every right to shut the door, not feed him breakfast every day.

The solution to the crisis would simply be to make Hamas responsible for providing the people of Gaza with food, water, electricity, etc...

Israel should not be forced to open its own borders. It has every right in the world to keep Gazans from their own soil, simply because Israel is its own sovereign nation.

If the people inside Gaza die because they can't provide for themselves, that is not Israel's fault. Not even by an iota.

Because genocide these days is unacceptable? And not every Palestinian in Gaza is a Hamas supporter or militant shooting at Israel?

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Says who?

Are you people serious?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Says who?

Says international law, the majority of sane people, and basic morals.

[LeoXiao]

Israel is blocking itself off from a completely different people.

I like how you add "itself." in there. Israel is much larger than gaza, and practically surrounds it. It is not blocking itself off, it is blocking everything from getting into the city. Of course this provides breeding ground for more Hamas-types.

Says who?

um, is all you can do now is be an ass?

[sa547]

I've been silent on this matter until now.

After watching everything on the crisis on most newschannels, I conclude that both sides have not accomplished everything except terrible hypocrisy, death and destruction -- Palestine with the loss of civilian lives while the militants want to take a crack at Israel no matter how the cost; and the Israeli government for doing what appears to be military overkill while not being able to rescue their compatriot.

Given the intense amount of flaming here, civilian deaths are not to be trolled for or laughed about.

Damn, the Irish had done a better job burying the hatchets.

[Vexx]

I do keep thinking about the Irish....

[0utf0xZer0]

I need to study the Irish - as someone who takes a lot of courses about conflict, it's kind of embarrassing not to know about one of the more oft noted examples of (mostly) resolving a long running conflict.