2008-10-06, 10:43 | Link #2021 | |
Lelouch Vi Britannia FTW
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Estonia
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And she would die if not for Gino, so I call this a tie. |
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2008-10-06, 13:56 | Link #2024 | |
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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Jesus. People were always complaining that Suzaku won every battle between him and Kallen, and when Kallen finally wins without interruption, everyone is debating whether she won or not when the truth is startlingly clear.
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2008-10-06, 14:04 | Link #2025 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the funny part is how they treat kallen passing out as if its some how suzaku's doing
like he made her pass out with that last attack (despite the fact that it didnt hit anywhere near the cockpit and she was still very much awake after it landed) i already stated my theory (that makes perfect sense IRL) that she was running on andrenalin during the fight (as a part of normal human survival mechinizem) and once she knew her life was no longer in danger (at least from the threat she was facing for all that time, AKA suzaku) her body stopped pumping andrenalin and she collapsed from pushing herself too hard and yet people kept attacking this theory as if its overlooking something that suzaku did to MAKE her pass out he made her push herself to the limit of what was humanly possible for a long time (for her at least) so her collapsing is part of his doing but he didnt actually do any one thing that made her pass out in the end its knowing that she won the fight and therfor could now relax that made her collapes its actually normal (happened to me once) it also makes sense for suzaku not to have collapsed at that point his life was still in danger (even if his live geass didnt make his stay awake, his normal fight or flight survival mechinizem wouldnt have let him pass out just yet)
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2008-10-06, 15:31 | Link #2026 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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It was a tie...If anything, the rules should be set up in advance. If the fight was whether or not it was to see whose machine was the most intact, Kallen won, and if it was to see whose body would be most intact, Suzaku won...
In all actuality, it's not whoever's machine is the most intact, it's who is left surviving without the outside influence of anything. We could also speculate that Jeremiah lost that fight to Anya, since Anya's machine was in better shape than Jeremiah's, but however, it was quite clear that jeremiah won the fight. |
2008-10-06, 15:51 | Link #2027 | |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Internet Cafe
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Suzaku and Kallen were always even in the fights except when one had the advantage or not. I'm not sure what are you trying to purpose since neither side won, Kallen's goal was to get to Lelouch but she didn't, Suzaku's goal was to stop anyone from pursuing him which he did. |
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2008-10-06, 15:58 | Link #2028 | ||
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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2008-10-06, 16:26 | Link #2029 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Internet Cafe
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I claimed he was trying to stop Kallen from reaching Lelouch and trying to fake his death at the same time, not lose. He didn't lose even in the false case that he was trying to win, because both their mechs got disabled and both would have "died" if not for Tristan. The fact Suzaku didn't exert himself to the same degree Kallen did (falling unconscious) is evidence enough that he wasn't giving it his all. He simply had to stop her and survive in such a manner that his death was faked. Without the Live On command, he wouldn't have been able to match up against the superior Guren. And you're just trying to simplify it by saying she won because of the conditions of their KMFs.
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2008-10-06, 16:38 | Link #2030 | |
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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2008-10-06, 16:41 | Link #2031 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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a)he tried to win the fight
he didnt and the best he could do was disable the guren after he had already lost (the arm wouldnt have penetrated into his chest if the guren had ran out of power before doing it) the lancelot was destroyed the guren was not = kallen won the fight b)he wasnt fighting kallen for the sake of faking his death only an idiot tries to fake his death using someone who can actually kill him for real the lancelot exploded and he used that fact as a cover for his death but that was only after he lost the fight (he was making lemonade) he wasnt trying to use kallen as a cover (what would have happend if she really killed him, and who would have saved lelouch from her) faking his death (while part of the plan) would have happend at a later time
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2008-10-06, 16:53 | Link #2032 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Internet Cafe
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The fact it was revealed that Suzaku "dying" there was all part of a premeditated plan is what indicates he wasn't fighting with "everything he had" to get a clear victory over Kallen. It was part of the plan for him to fake-die in battle. Suzaku was surprised that he had to use the Live On Geass to just stay about on par with Kallen, but again, the fact he pre-planned his death means that he was trying to create a believable "dying" situation. He was surprised that he couldn't decisively manipulate the situation as easily as he hoped, but the show made it clear that he didn't want to "beat" Kallen there. Truly, the Guren SEITEN is a masterpiece since it forced Suzaku to use his Live On Geass in a situation where he would have easily manipulated the situation if Kallen were using an equivalent-spec mech to the Albion. Still, it looks like it wasn't quite high-spech enough for Suzaku to not overcome it anyway.
@bladeofdarkness Faking death at the hands at Kallen was revealed to be part of Zero Requiem. Suzaku let her blow him up. His only goal all along was to not let Kallen interfere, not kill her. |
2008-10-06, 17:03 | Link #2033 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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that is wrong in so many ways
1)he was trying to WIN the fight (his finishing move would have been the spinzaku kick, except kallen smashed his leg off) he was shooting at her with the varis and destroyed one of the energy wings if kallen hadent matched him she would have been grounded while he could fly (which makes it hard to sell that she killed him) 2)he wasnt trying to fake his death against kallen (she would have killed him for real) since his death could have faked in a hundred different ways (each of which wouldnt have put the plan at such a risk) 3) his geass makes him "live" at any cost last time it made him nuke tokyo just so he wont die, so it wouldnt have made him fight better and at the same time let him fight without trying to win (which would be the key to surviving) 4) the guren is a masterpiece but kallen was the one making it match him move for move and trying to claim that machine specs are all that made her win is rediculus (Lloyd said no other pilot could even use it) 5)and in the end he still lost to the guren so he didnt overcome it 6)kallen and he crossed roads before with equal machines and he never beat her before (ep 24 wasnt equal) and it wasnt revealed to be part of the plan for kallen to "kill him" it was part of the plan for him to have died only an idiot would try it against someone who he couldnt even keep up with without using his geass (which would make him live at any cost, its not seed mode but rather a survival mechnizem) kallen was a risk to the plan not part of it (he even tried talking her out of fighting him) and all becouse lelouch MADE IT A POINT to keep her out of the plan and how would she have even gotten there did he plan on gino blowing the shield
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2008-10-06, 17:48 | Link #2034 |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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Let's get some things straight here.
The Guren was superior to the Albion (unless you like to say that Kallen's too stupid to determine specs) so therefore she had an advantage against him. Suzaku's advantage was in his geass which pushed him to the limits and this was what cancelled out Kallen's advantage in her mech. She had the better mech, especially when it bogged down to hand to hand combat. Albion successfully took down the Guren while the Guren punched it in the stomach, end game. Guren collapses and falls to its death while Albion is left to explode. If it was not for a certain plot device, Gino, Kallen would've been dead too. So all in all the fight was techincally a tie but Gino saved Kallen so that made her the victor. |
2008-10-06, 19:26 | Link #2035 | |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Internet Cafe
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2008-10-07, 00:46 | Link #2036 |
Double Your Fun
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Kallen "won" the battle against Suzaku in Lancelot Albion but her margin of victory was incredibly paper thin, and it cost her everything to do it. Guren was trashed, she was dead tired, and she collapsed from exhaustion. We call that a "Pyrrhic victory" because Suzaku, on the other hand, jumped out of Lancelot and continued on with the Zero Requiem Plan.
Look at it this way: Small Picture: Kallen won the battle, and it cost her everything to do it. BUT she did beat Suzaku in a Knightmare Frame battle, but by a paper thin margin. Big Picture: Kallen, despite winning the battle, couldn't go on (Guren was trashed & she was too tired from the battle) to stop Lelouch from using Damoncles and FLEIA. Black Knight's were defeated. The world was conquered by Lelouch. Depends on the way you look at it, so make it clear which perspective your looking at it from. There are multiple ways to look at a situation, and you may be arguing with someone who looking at it a different way from you. If you just want to focus on the Knightmare Frame battle, fine. If you want to look at the bigger picture and how Kallen fits into all of it, make it clear. |
2008-10-07, 01:24 | Link #2037 |
Megabuddy
IT Support
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 16
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It's pretty clear that Kallen and Suzaku have *always* been portrayed as equal rivals in terms of pilot skill.
Kallen mentioned the Guren *should* have been more powerful spec-wise, and of course it's offset by Suzaku's Live Geass. In terms of raw performance, the SEITEN in its initial debut seemed alot faster than the Lancelot, and from looks, it appears to have thicker armor, though that might just be cosmetic. Nice to see the Guren SEITEN had a Jet Magnum at any rate.
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Last edited by Zenemis; 2008-10-07 at 01:44. |
2008-10-07, 02:30 | Link #2038 |
Double Your Fun
Join Date: Sep 2008
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If Guren really was better than Lancelot Albion, then why didn't Lloyd or Cecile tweak it or upgrade it some more after the Guren was taken back by Kallen? I can understand they went overboard and powered up the Guren a lot, but why didn't they do the same with Lancelot Albion if Guren was clearly better spec wise?
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2008-10-07, 03:18 | Link #2040 |
Megabuddy
IT Support
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia.
Age: 16
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The Lancelot was never touched by Rakshata, so it's common opinion that it didn't have the benefit of her modifications, even though they should've been able to reverse engineer them when they captured the Guren Kasshoushiki.
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