[Manga] Naruto Chapter 644 Discussion Thread

[forcerounds]

My hope for the Hyuuga clan is that they too have special powers related to the Bijuu. If the Uchiha clan can control a Bijuu with the sharingan, there should also be something the Byakugan can do with Bijuu. Kishimoto needs to take this opportunity now that every Hyuuga in the war (namely Hinata) is cloaked with Kurama's chakra. Perhaps they can become one with the chakra, essentially becoming temporary Jinchuuriki, then use the chakra to enhance their vision and gentle fist beyond what is currently possible. Almost nothing good ever happens to Hyuugas though...

[Zachito]

I can see Sasuke betraying them soon for some reason

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

You're thinking too simplistically. Naruto could go all Spaceflight on Obito (or the alliance could kajigger any number of methods that will save them in the present situation), but that is a short term solution at best: their bugs will die, their shadows will weaken, their stomachs will consume too much of their fat stores, their minds will not be able to handle the stress, their chakra control will falter, etc. By utilizing this boring method of teleportation, Kishimoto effectively eliminates Obito's total threat (at least with using barriers and giant detonations) toward the army once and for all: Obito can no longer enclose them and threaten them since Naruto and Minato can easily, and seemingly endlessly, move them elsewhere. (Now they just need to be shunted to the side and left to watch in muted awe so Kishimoto can finally finish this fight).

I want to say, no you.
More seriously you are wrong for three reasons :

• The first and least important is that even if you're looking at this logically Obito has still incommensurably more chakra than the two Kyubis and Naruto and could still spam barriers and Bijuudama all day when it's doubtful Naruto could reiterate this little trick more than two or three times.
• Secondly I was merely giving two example out of thousand if possibilities, you can still make use of the chakra of the Kyubi to fuel the army instead of Naruto and that's without mentioning the fact that everybody is running on virtually infinite chakra since the beginning of the war anyway.
• Last and more importantly there is nothing logical about the way Obito is dealing with the fight. If he was he wouldn't have fought in the first place and even if he wanted to he could have won within seconds. No, they will fight for a long time for fighting's sake. The fact of the matter is that he won't do this move again regardless of its effectiveness because the only thing that truly matter is entertainment value and certainly not logic. Boring is the worse sin of the genre and Naruto countering an unseen nuclear blast with an unseeable jutsu is a critical example of this.

As for the whole Shikimaru thing...sorry, I just don't see it (at least in regards to actually ending the threat). Shikimaru's debatable genius only occurs when he has a mountain of facts and data to work with. We've seen him fail before when he didn't have enough information, and this was simply a case in which he didn't have enough information to adequately create any long-term solution.

The solution the author chose merely required teleportation, physical/chakra contact and large amount of chakra. Shikamaru had all the data he needed and more.
This discussion is a bit ridiculous anyhow, the only thing that can stop a character from having an idea is Kishimoto and I don't believe you'd argue seriously that the author couldn't come up with a scenario where everyone except Naruto and his dad isn't an useless bystander if he so wished.

I will say that Shikimaru should have been able to come up with a short-term solution, and yes it could be said That Kishimoto failed the character by not letting him thinking of any short-term solution, but I do not think it was to elevate Naruto so much as to create tension for the situation.

Shikamaru being unable to find a solution served both those things except of course that it failed to create tension because we were shown that Naruto knew what to do which nullified all pressure. With now an entire chapter devoted to the explanation of what happened whereas it's ridiculously simple and can be summarized in a small sentence the only thing that remains is the elevation of Naruto. That was the only point of the last hundreds two chapters (along with a little touchy feely between Naruto and his dad, I'm glad it worked for you).

(Honestly if you wish to discuss Shikimaru's low-point in intelligence with the added benefit of needing Naruto's help, look no further than the ridiculous cipher nonsense left behind by Jiraiya. There was an instance where Shikimaru completely failed for no discernible reason only for Naruto to appear and point out the most obvious answer possible. That was a bad day for the character...)

I don't want to discuss that, I already have too many time. The author always has had difficulty writing smart characters and always turns everybody else into morons instead. My rant isn't about poor Shikamaru about whom I don't give a damn. It's solely about the action being dull and boring which I feel is a crime against readership.

[Monster0]

I agree with Hunter. Being boring is the only thing that turns me off of any entertainment,that's why i don't like 'one piece'.But you and i can't expect every one to feel the same.So i also agree with james,the story did just fine with teleporting.I didn't think it was anything to rant about.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Monster0

I agree with Hunter. Being boring is the only thing that turns me off of any entertainment,that's why i don't like 'one piece'.But you and i can't expect every one to feel the same.So i also agree with james,the story did just fine with teleporting.I didn't think it was anything to rant about.

Another big reason this is boring is the way the author has been dragging the plot along. We've been given double page spreads of huge explosions, overly dramatic scenes that are essentially meaningless, and of course entire pages containing one huge panel of cheesy lines by Naruto proclaiming his resolve to Obito. Meanwhile, the plot moves inches at a time, if at all.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Shikamaru being unable to find a solution served both those things except of course that it failed to create tension because we were shown that Naruto knew what to do which nullified all pressure. With now an entire chapter devoted to the explanation of what happened whereas it's ridiculously simple and can be summarized in a small sentence the only thing that remains is the elevation of Naruto. That was the only point of the last hundreds two chapters (along with a little touchy feely between Naruto and his dad, I'm glad it worked or you).

I agree on the Shikamaru issue. Kishimoto could have sent the message "the alliance is f*&^cked" in countless other ways, yet he specifically chose the alliance's best stratigest to be at a loss for a plan, which is quite telling I think. Its just another instance of various elements in the story shamelessly bending, twisting, and molding around to glorify Naruto. Its whats been happening for practically the entire war, and no matter how cliche, contrived, or obnoxious it seems, the author obviously doesn't give a rats ass.

[Monster0]

If anything as simple as a comic book let me down that bad i would just drop it.

[mayumi]

Oh please the amount of time Naruto has to look stupid to explain jutsu, isn't idiotic? Or the times Naruto forgets how certain jutsu works because Itachi is present, isn't idiotic? It's is Kishimoto's fault in writing that he can't make one character shine without demeaning others. It has always been like this.

[Owlman]

These posts are starting to get to me. It would be much more enjoyable if the cast had a better balance and wasn't so horribly disproportinate as it is. Its just stupid. I saw StarTrek when it came out earlier this summer and I think the main characters have a good balance. Kirk is a great leader, Spoc is frighteningly intelligent and they work together(well they try :P), no one character is glorified to no end at the expense of others, making them seem completely useless. Game of thrones is another good example of a very good balance. I don't know why they have to make these shounen manga so stupid. It was great when everyone had their own specialty, but now Naruto has to become a master at everything except for genjitsu, and basically overshadows the entire alliance. They only reason the alliance is present at all is for them to fail miserably to be saved by him, and be in awe. This manga has such a great set of characters and they're all being wasted, its sad.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The solution the author chose merely required teleportation, physical/chakra contact and large amount of chakra. Shikamaru had all the data he needed and more.

Shikimaru did not have the actual facts on hand to make such a decision. He did not know that Naruto could immediately reactivate the cloaks, nor did he know that Minato could utilize Hiraishin through the Kyuubi's chakra (no, Shikimaru does not know how the Hiraishin works, Minato only explained it to Sasuke, Naruto and a Toad). Sure Shikimaru could have come up with a secondary plan that would have solved the immediate situation, but that would not solve the actual problem (and lets face it, i do not think Kishimoto is smart enough to come up with any truly unique methods for saving the alliance). As I commented/complained about earlier, Kishimoto is doing an awful job with pacing and tension by presenting major problems only to then solve them the very next chapter (admittedly, he's had this problem for awhile). For better or worse, Naruto/Kyuubi/Minato's solution was the answer that immediately solved the problem at hand and it also required the least effort. Yes, it is boring (so boring and definitely cheap), but it simply par for the course in regards to the actual content of the manga; consequently I see no reason to complain as if it were somehow different.

In other words, I do not see this moment as being as "overwhelming" as you do, there were other moments far worse than this - like effectively making the entire alliance nothing more than a kage bushin for his personal use, that moment stung far more than this.

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I agree on the Shikamaru issue. Kishimoto could have sent the message "the alliance is f*&^cked" in countless other ways, yet he specifically chose the alliance's best stratigest to be at a loss for a plan, which is quite telling I think.

I'd have preferred some good old fashioned reaction shots. Seeing everyone's faces right before the big ball of death hits would have been far better for rising tension than what Kishimoto did, it would have even been a decent cliffhanger.

Originally Posted by Owlman

This manga has such a great set of characters and they're all being wasted, its sad.

On that I think we can all agree.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

On that I think we can all agree.

yea. i actually got into naruto after the zabuza/haku arc. it was the cast of interesting characters during the forest of death and chuunin exams that made me take notice and start following the series. now they have all been combined and reduced to a collective damsel in distress that just gets in the way. it's pretty disappointing

[Ero-Senn1n]

I don't have any problem with Shikamaru not having a plan. It's simply about having overwhelming power, there's no plan that can help against that. Overwhelming power is the power of the Sage of 6 paths that had the 10-tails sealed into himself, as Tobito said the Sage of 6 paths had become a god after he sealed the 10-tails power into himself. We are talking about a guy who can nullify all ninjutsu, of all the things that Shikamaru doesn't know this would be the most important. I expect that Shikamaru will have some smart solutions later, when Tobito's power breaks down to a level where the alliance can do something.

[itachi-san314]

the problem boils down to an explosion in a barrier. it doesn't take a 200 iq to figure out the possible solutions. whether or not the alliance and naruto can do them is another matter. shikamaru is just the strategist, not the soldier for the most part. so basically there are 3 general options that a "genius" should have easily thought of. teleportation which was the most obvious and what they did and then as Hunter pointed out, either something involving the ground or the sky or a combination of both to move the blast and/or the alliance's relation to it. instead all we get from our series' intellectual genius is a shrug of the shoulders

edit: also just throwing this out there, but the entire alliance was gathered at one point. it would have been wise to have them all marked with a summoning technique so that if this type of situation arose, or even just to a small group of alliance ninjas, they could have summoned themselves out of it. with a technique like summoning at their disposal, this should really be a commonplace practice. i dont know why sasuke is seemingly the only one always ready to summon himself out of danger

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't have any problem with Shikamaru not having a plan. It's simply about having overwhelming power, there's no plan that can help against that. Overwhelming power is the power of the Sage of 6 paths that had the 10-tails sealed into himself, as Tobito said the Sage of 6 paths had become a god after he sealed the 10-tails power into himself. We are talking about a guy who can nullify all ninjutsu, of all the things that Shikamaru doesn't know this would be the most important. I expect that Shikamaru will have some smart solutions later, when Tobito's power breaks down to a level where the alliance can do something.

But why even use Shikamaru in this chapter? What was the point of it? Other than to elevate Naruto at his expense.Not only was he shown not being able to think of a plan, but not even understanding what Naruto was doing in another panel!

Shikamaru, in Kishi's own writing, is said to be able to think of 100 plans in second and be 10 moves ahead of you. Yet here he can't think of anything and is crying for his dead daddy. Yeah, that jives with canon. Especially since we saw eariler that the entire Alliance, including idiot savant Naruto and the Kyuubi, needed his dad to figure everything out for them. It would be very easy for Shikamaru to be shown at least figuring out part of how to get around the barrier.

This really isn't about Shikamaru. It's that Kishi has this habit of running down characters to make others, usually Naruto, look good. I expect it with fodder like Neji, Tenten, Lee, Hinata, Sai, Kiba, Choji, insert name of another meaningless tertiary character. Even Sakura. But I am surprised he'd do it with a character he claims to love, spent a lot of time developing, and always shoves down our throats he is more intelligent than anyone and is Hokage worthy. Blah. I'm sure he'll shine later leading the Alliance.

The fact that we are talking about this shows how boring and prediciatable this chapter was. I knew the Hokages coming back would be awful for the manga. I could almost stand Naruto being Jesus Christ if he was fighting alone with Sasuke. But once again, Naruto has his adult babysitters. And the Naruto-Minato stuff might of had more impact if Kishi hadn't already had them met.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

But why even use Shikamaru in this chapter? What was the point of it? Other than to elevate Naruto at his expense.

Heroes save the day, that's their job. It's not at "his expense" in my opinion, these other guys don't have that sort of power that is necessary to fight the bad boss. It was the same in with Goku, so many times others waited for him to appear on the battlefield, and it works with the average audience quite well. And not only in DB/DBZ but countless other manga and comics and movies based on them. I must admit i like that cliche' too in this sort of entertainment. Maybe you have different taste than the average readers I guess people have problem with this because the hero is Naruto and not Goku or Superman or some other hero. Kiba's reaction says it all Last time he fought with Naruto, it was a random fart that beat him, it wasn't even planned So i guess some readers find Naruto to be too lame to pull of things like this.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Not only was he shown not being able to think of a plan, but not even understanding what Naruto was doing in another panel!

It wasn't Naruto's doing, it was the 4th hokage, Naruto just acted as a medium and as a huge chakra reserve.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

It would be very easy for Shikamaru to be shown at least figuring out part of how to get around the barrier.

If he could do that he would be kage level, but he's just a chuunin, and he's still young and inexperienced. You can't expect of him to be on the level of hokages who know a lot of secrets and invented teleportation and kage bunshin jutsu, etc. But you can bet that he learns fast, by the end of this war he will learn lot of things to be able to help in the end game. We have already seen him many times observing battles, then coming up with great plans. Remember how helpless he was against Temari in the chuunin exam, he also watched his sensei die, but in the end he won his fights.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

This really isn't about Shikamaru. It's that Kishi has this habit of running down characters to make others, usually Naruto, look good.

Yeah, best example is Sakura When Naruto or Sasuke are around she's dumbed down. But seeing how Naruto was constanly helped by the hokages and the tailed beasts and Kakashi while Shika had only the help of ninja who are useless against 10-tails-Tobito i think right now there's not much to complain about. I complained enough when nobody helped Naruto to fight Pain

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

But I am surprised he'd do it with a character he claims to love, spent a lot of time developing, and always shoves down our throats he is more intelligent than anyone and is Hokage worthy.

I think he doesn't look at it like you, he doesn't think that this chapter made Shikamaru look bad. Or maybe he failed to make of 10-tails-Tobito a character that seems to be godlike in your eyes.

[Monster0]

Next Chapter,

Allied Shinobi,"yay we're saved!"

Obito,"i wasn't aiming for you i was aiming for them."Points to the blank empty space that Madara and Hashirama were fighting in.

"You missed" says Hashirama rising from underground,he and Madara saved inside giant wooden balls.

Hiruzen,"I'm dead again and nobody cares."

[Jehuty]

So it just occurred to me.

With this blast, isn't Neji blasted to smithereens? I mean, he probably won't come back but... this would pretty much seal it lol unless he was edo tensei'd.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Heroes save the day, that's their job. It's not at "his expense" in my opinion, these other guys don't have that sort of power that is necessary to fight the bad boss. It was the same in with Goku, so many times others waited for him to appear on the battlefield, and it works with the average audience quite well. And not only in DB/DBZ but countless other manga and comics and movies based on them.

But what does this really mean mate? Because there are countless other stories that do well without this horrendusly disproportionate scheme, and I'd say they do arguably better. X-Men, Avengers, Spiderman, Justice League, Batman, etc. to name a few off the top. Stories like Batman and Spiderman focus on one hero, yet that hero doesn't outshine everyone in such a ridiculous way, and I'd say they were pretty successful.

I must admit i like that cliche' too in this sort of entertainment.

It must be pretty boring to often know what will happen the next chapter. Maybe you should try something else that will challenge you more, I see you love to make predictions and assertions about alleged "plot-holes". But then most of those predictions don't turn out true anyway lol, so I guess its not that bad.

Maybe you have different taste than the average readers

lol you're trying to make it sound like we belong to some kind of obscure minority that has unusual taste, yet there are tons of people who love stories that contain diversity, challenge and enjoy when a colorful cast of characters have intersting things to contribute to the plot, as opposed to this now one man circus show.

I guess people have problem with this because the hero is Naruto and not Goku or Superman or some other hero. Kiba's reaction says it all

I for one don't have a problem "because" the hero is Naruto, my problem is that things are so disproportionate that the story has become boring, and horribly contrived/cliche. Its a fantasy story, but at least *some* things have to be believable & reasonable. In the case of Superman which you brought up, his story is pretty boring too for the same reasons, he's so powerful that most of his villains(and allies) are crappy in comparison, and I'd say thats why titles such as Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, etc. have mostly outdone him in the sales charts for comics as well as movies.

If he could do that he would be kage level, but he's just a chuunin, and he's still young and inexperienced. You can't expect of him to be on the level of hokages who know a lot of secrets and invented teleportation and kage bunshin jutsu, etc. But you can bet that he learns fast, by the end of this war he will learn lot of things to be able to help in the end game.

You make me laugh, because usually when Naruto gets help (such as when the random rock ninja pulled him out the way of one of the Raikage's attacks), you post complaints about it, but when Naruto is glorified to a ridiculous extent your posts are full of smiley faces(such as some of your earlier ones here), and you post excuses like this explaining why its ok. You and "milankyubi" sure do love this guy lol.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by james0246

On that I think we can all agree.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea. i actually got into naruto after the zabuza/haku arc. it was the cast of interesting characters during the forest of death and chuunin exams that made me take notice and start following the series. now they have all been combined and reduced to a collective damsel in distress that just gets in the way. it's pretty disappointing

I thought late Part I, earlier Part II was pretty addciting. Its when several of the Akatsuki characters where beginning to be revealed and other characters like Gaara, Sakura, and Shikamaru where allowed to actually get some shine. It made me keep wondering what powers people had when you didn't see them in a while, and while there were always characters that were stronger than others, most main characters where competitive to one another. I had a similar feeling of suspense reading the Soul Society arc in Bleach.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

I thought late Part I, earlier Part II was pretty addciting. Its when several of the Akatsuki characters where beginning to be revealed and other characters like Gaara, Sakura, and Shikamaru where allowed to actually get some shine. It made me keep wondering what powers people had when you didn't see them in a while, and while there were always characters that were stronger than others, most main characters where competitive to one another. I had a similar feeling of suspense reading the Soul Society arc in Bleach.

yea i completely enjoyed (and was a little too addicted) to naruto from the forest of death all the way through the hidan kakuzu arc. as much as i like sage mode, i think it was the downfall of the series for naruto to learn it so quickly and then be able to single handedly take on the likes of pain. i think the series would have kept thriving if naruto took years to learn sage mode (or maybe if he only just learned it well for this war and showed it off recently vs juubito for the first time). such an OP character like Pain should have won that fight and taken the kyuubi leaving naruto to have been revived by some lame method, but of course he could never die as the main character so it wouldn't have been a let down or anything. then there would have been some serious tension in the series if akatsuki had the kyuubi and a seemingly invincible leader(s). suspense for naruto to learn sage mode. excitement as the other k11 needed to step up their game and maybe come up with a battle plan vs Pain that involved everyone... all just wishful thinking of course, but it's the OP of Sage Mode and Pain that (even though was exciting at the time) sent the story to ruin.

also, about superman and dbz having OP main characters. that's not a good thing. superman is a very boring story. it was only popular because nobody had ever seen anything like it. once more versatile superhero stories came out, superman lost a lot of interest since it's such a one trick pony. same thing with dbz. if dbz came out today, we would complain about it more than the current naruto. it's just one rushed powerup after another and no matter what piccolo, tenshinhan, kurinin and vegeta will lose and goku will win eventually. it wasn't the story of dbz that made it popular. it was the originality of the concept and the overall badassery, but the story is very bland and predictable.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea i completely enjoyed (and was a little too addicted) to naruto from the forest of death all the way through the hidan kakuzu arc. as much as i like sage mode, i think it was the downfall of the series for naruto to learn it so quickly and then be able to single handedly take on the likes of pain.

I thought it was absolute BS, especially the way various story elements conveniently bent over backwards to make things even remotely believable/excusable for Naruto to stand on equal footing with someone like that. I thought it was particularly annoying when Pein actually defeated him and decided to chat about philosophy.

I was hoping for him to drag Naruto back to the lair and extract the bijuu, so that Naruto would then fight without it. I don't like the idea of him borrowing the kyuubi's chakra and much rather the idea of sage mode. It seemed like he was moving away from using the Kyuubi at the time and looked like the story would go in this direction. I thought perhaps Naruto would have survived the extraction by using natures life force to hold on or something; but oh well "wishful thinking" indeed :/

I think I've stated this before; I'd love to read a more mature "Sienen"(if thats the right term) version of this story that doesn't follow this shounen law nonsense, and the main characters are kept at a competitive level to one another without all this over the top stuff.