2004-11-01, 22:36 | Link #21 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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If it was a majority rule, the candidates would have to try to campaign for a majority vote. True, they would probably focus on more populated areas, to more efficiently move their message, but it would have nothing to do with the states. If anything, the Electoral Collage marginalizes the small states. If all 25 of the less populous states got together and voted as a block, the still wouldn't be able to affect any but the closest of elections. What the electors have done is create the phenomenon known as 'swing states' or 'battleground states'. This year there are only 10 swing states, those states where the results haven't been determined long ago, and the only two that are large enough to really make a difference are Ohio and Florida. So that is where all of the action is taking place. Now explain to me how this system ensures that the smaller states are well represented. If anything, a state like Rhode Island becomes incredibly marginalized, even if it was up for grabs, no one cares enough to go there, because it doesn't even count towards a general popular vote. Once upon a time, there was some debate about states that were primarily urban dominating the states that were primarily rural, due to the population difference, but since each state was equally important to the economy, they needed equal representation under the law. That's about the best excuse I've seen for the Electoral Colege to have been created, but there are no more rural states. Even Montana has more people living in its cities than in the country. Quote:
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2004-11-01, 23:05 | Link #22 |
Semi-retired Translator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oregon
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While the Electoral College may have been come up with to protect smaller states from the more populous larger ones, it tends to marginalize voters in states that are firmly held by one party or the other. If one candidate wins by a landslide in a certain state, anybody who voted for that candidate in that state above the number that was needed to win, effectively didn't count on a national scale. I believe this is unfair because the presidential election is not an election for local government, but for national government.
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2004-11-01, 23:16 | Link #23 | ||
~Lost in the Moonlight~
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2004-11-01, 23:43 | Link #24 | |
Noumenon
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What I find baffling about the US system is that there are, effectively, just two candidates and many, many voters who will like some of the policies of both candidates (pro Republican stance on one issue, pro Democratic on the other) but they can only ever pick one - it's like they're having to choose the least worst option, or prioritise their own beliefs ("I want issue X to be dealt with more than issue Y, so I guess this is the party for me."). SCC |
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2004-11-02, 00:38 | Link #25 | ||
Weapon of Mass Discussion
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
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The Electoral College prevents any candidate from winning based on regional popularity. It doesn't matter if you can deliver 99% of the deep south since that is worth no more than 51% of the deep south. Consequently candidates need to win over states outside of their immediate base. This forces campaigning in states that the candidate would rather not have to be in. This is one of the good things about the Electoral College system. The result is that there is a LOT of campaigning in states that the candidate wouldn't bother with if they didn't have to. Even a 3 electoral vote state is important in this election. And a buch of smaller states combined can add up to something really nice.
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2004-11-02, 01:20 | Link #26 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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I suppose my primary objection to the system is that my vote is completely marginalized. There is no way that the state of Texas is going to vote any way but Republican, regardless of who the candidate is. But that doesn't mean that everybody in Texas supports that party or that candidate. My vote, which didn't go for Bush, will essentially be throw away, even if the slip of paper doesn't actually end up in the wastebasket. I have no method of speaking out or supporting a different candidate, thanks to the voting system we use. Of course, thanks to the two-party system I can't vote for a candidate I actually believe in, either, but that makes for a totally different rant. (Bush, Kerry, or Badnarik, what kind of choice is that? Why can't we just let Nader be on the ballot?) Anyway, none of this even matters if people aren't allowed to vote. I think a few of those in charge have forgotten that people who are actively barred from having a voice in their government have historically found other ways of making their opinions known. |
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2004-11-02, 12:16 | Link #27 |
Raid-the-mods
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sol System
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Nadar is being prevented by the Democrats as with the Republicans were against Perot 8 years ago. ANY Candidates who will take votes away from the major party are considered risks since it takes away from the major parties. Nadar was blamed for Gore's loss since it took votes away from Gore. Remember, Gore lost the electorial but won the popularity. If he had a few more votes here and there, he would have won.
As you said, there's not much of a choice in the US election. The way I choose is by this criteria. Which one does less damage to the country and me. I have not seen a candidate on any of my local gov't or federal gov't that I want to vote for. |
2004-11-02, 12:55 | Link #28 | |
Afflicted by the vanities
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fish-shape Paumanok
Age: 36
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2004-11-02, 13:31 | Link #29 | |
セクシーなパイロット
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kentucky
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2004-11-02, 13:44 | Link #32 | ||
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A little closer to the original topic: As usual, Garry Trudeau finds an interesting angle to explore about all of this. I laughed pretty hard. Finally, some good news and some bad news That has got to be a new record for turn-around in a federal court of appeals. One day later a three judge panel overturns the ruling barring outside workers from interfering with voters, and the vote is split right down party lines. I was saving my Tylenol for watching the returns tonight, but I feel that headache coming on already. Last edited by hooliganj; 2004-11-02 at 14:03. Reason: added comic, more news |
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2004-11-02, 14:10 | Link #33 | |
~Lost in the Moonlight~
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I am so there with you. Watching MSNBC and listening to it all and I ready for some. <Pulls out the Tylenol bottle and downs 3> I voted first thing this morning and have been keeping a close eye on all the coverage. |
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2004-11-02, 14:13 | Link #34 | |
Raid-the-mods
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sol System
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2004-11-02, 15:02 | Link #35 |
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I've had this discussion on the upcomming election days on end. Unfortunately, I've lost faith in the American political system. I'm only 17, but I'm never voting with candidates like Bush and Kerry.
For example: Bush and Kerry and just going for the "undecided" states to campaign, what about IL and the other states? That just goes to prove their intentions on the presidency. |
2004-11-02, 15:22 | Link #36 | |
in silent opposition
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2004-11-02, 15:46 | Link #38 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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California-55 Texas-34 New York-31 Florida-27 Illinois-21 Pennsylvania-21 Ohio-20 Michigan-17 Georgia-15 New Jersey-15 North Carolina-15 The system is seriously skewed with 11 states hold 271 electoral votes, out of a possible 538 vote total. Number of votes needed to win is 278. This points to why candidates campaign so heavily in some states more than others. Neither candidate can afford to just hand their opponent most or all of these 271 votes without a fight and still expect to win. |
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2004-11-02, 15:53 | Link #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Another interesting quirk of the Electoral College: In order to win, you need a majority of electoral votes (that is, more than 51% of the total.) Right now, that's 270. If both candidates get 269 and nobody has a majority, then the House of Representitives decides the President, while the Senate decides the vice-president. In theory, you could end up with a president from one party and a vice-president from another.
Originally, the founding fathers envisioned a much smaller role for the US President. They didn't intend for him to be popularly elected (which is why state legislatures can assign electoral votes arbirarily in many parts of the country); they intended for Congress to be popularly elected, and to have them appoint the President. But within a few decades, things had changed to the way they are now. And, incidently, if a third party were to significently cut into the electoral vote total then elections would almost always go to Congress; we would effectively lose the ability to elect the president. I don't like it either, but that's the way the laws work out at the moment. |
2004-11-02, 16:50 | Link #40 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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