AnimeSuki Forums

grey_moon · 2007-05-22, 08:59

@npal - So true, but good having the user defaulted to a non admin account should mean that malware only damages the users environment and not the whole system. Ofc that is if the bugger doesn't pop up a sudo/uax box asking the user to grant it admin rights hahahahah.

Is it possible to dl the beta version of Vista still? or a demo version? It would be nice for the op to be able to test it out, but I guess they would still need to install it somewhere

, M$ learn the beauty of live cds please!

npal · 2007-05-22, 14:12

Isn't Windows now almost doing the same thing? (provided the UAC cannot be overcome by malware, although if it can be compromised, it's more than useless so it must have some value being there).

Linux doesn't need malware to get out of order, just some average user trying to compile something harmless the wrong way and mess up the kernel

And to answer a question, indeed I favor comfort more than security, since I believe that security is ultimately a user choice and no amount of protection can protect you from yourself and whatever moronic thing you may do. So I'd rather have them drop security a bit and have room for antiviral and firewall programs and give me the ease to work around in relative peace. Linux is nice (with a preference to KDE) but after having spend time in Linux, I still prefer Windows' way of things. Linux is a decent alternative though, provided that developers have drivers for it. My only problem is that my new 2900XT Ati doesn't have linux drivers so my time with Linux right now is non existent. I also have a serious problem with X-Fi and Linux (no Creative drivers in the horizon, a supposed release was postponed for another 3 months and it gets frustrating changing cables every time I want to get to Linux). Then again, my Vista Ultimate are working more or less ok so I'm not in that much of a hurry

@grey_moon, just for the record if you need to just try out Vista, test the 32bit version. The 64bit doesn't accept unsigned drivers (unless you turn off that module but I don't like turning off core services, tried it once) which is a pain for some things, and 64bit software just isn't there so you are running 32bit software in emulation most of the time.

And since I haven't encountered any problems related to DRM yet (I had a resource problem probably caused by nVidia's crappy ATA driver for 680 chipset), I don't mind Vista. If all things fail, there's always Linux as there was Linux with my XP

On-topic The real problem is that a number of OEM have stopped shipping XP, so finding XP is hard. If you don't mind Linux being more or less always on the bleeding edge (that's my experience anyway), better stick to an easy Linux package, if you can't find XP and don't want OS X. In any case, I advice against getting Vista if you are not used to the early adopter syndromes (which are painful sometimes).

Epyon9283 · 2007-05-22, 18:51

UAC isn't really like how Linux or OS X works. Windows already had user accounts and groups of varying permissions. It also always had a way to run a process as another user.

The whole reason for UAC on Vista is that there are way too many apps out there for Windows that assume the user will have administrative privileges. They write to locations they shouldn't be writing to on the filesystem or registry and/or make calls to things a normal user shouldn't have access to. Vista virtualizes a lot of these locations so that apps run without admin privileges. If MS wasn't so concerned with backwards compatibility and ease of use they'd just make normal user accounts the default in Windows. Make everyone use runas to run things as an administrator. That'd basically get you what we have in Linux.

Epyon9283 · 2007-05-22, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Is it possible to dl the beta version of Vista still? or a demo version? It would be nice for the op to be able to test it out, but I guess they would still need to install it somewhere

, M$ learn the beauty of live cds please!

Don't enter a product key during the Vista install and you'll get 30 days before it stops working.

grey_moon · 2007-05-22, 20:57

One of the many apps was Office 2k3, it needed write rights to various areas of the windows directory

, have they sorted it out in 2k7?

In regards to trialing other OS, even through I am a SuSE person myself, I would recommend trying Ubuntu, (or Kubuntu if u like a more windows, errr kde feeling).

It is just so nice to install and use.

The desktop version is a live cd and there is an icon to install it to your hard drive if you like it. Ubuntu has taken a Mac approach to the user jailing process and it asks for your own password to elevate the rights to allow you to install stuff (it actually uses sudo if you like reading up the more geeky stuff).

I've been testing Vista myself and due to either it being resource hungry, or some incompatibility with VMware, it runs dog slow. My poor VMware box trembles when I switch on the Vista guest

Ending · 2007-05-23, 16:01

Quote:

Don't enter a product key during the Vista install and you'll get 30 days before it stops working.

And remember: if you are upgrading and enter the key, you can no longer legally use the previous version of the OS (WinXP). That's part of the new, way stricter license requirments you have to accept during the installation.

npal · 2007-05-23, 16:49

True but you can just install Vista as trial and then install Vista again on top of the previous installation and THEN enter your upgrade vista key

WanderingKnight · 2007-05-23, 22:49

But I believed the general message was: don't upgrade. For the sake of Jebus, don't. Get a fresh HD and start with that. But don't upgrade, for the sake of whatever you love.

grey_moon · 2007-05-24, 00:26

I think the hard part may actually be getting the Vista install in the first place to trial it...

arcadeplayer987 · 2007-05-24, 13:18

I agree with grey_moon.
Try it and you will take the best solution

avmoghe · 2007-05-24, 21:52

I've been using Vista on and off for the past six months. Generally, my experience has been positive. If you have over 1 Gigabyte of RAM and a decent video card, I suggest upgrading.

The main reason why I urge people to upgrade is the security. With UAC, you will be asked to verify administrative tasks. If you're logged in as administrator, you just need to click "allow". My understanding of this is that UAC is MS's attempt to finally force third party developers to write their applications correctly - applications cannot write to Program Files directory, for example (without a manifest). If you don't like the prompts, you can turn UAC off.

One other important advantage was the sound - my onboard Realtek audio sounds a lot better under Vista than it did under XP. This probably can be attributed to the new audio stack.

My biggest gripe with the OS has been the long delays for copying files across partitions.

As other posters have suggested, make sure your hardware is supported - hardware manufacturers have dropped the ball on drivers. NVidia drivers are still beta quality - the fps in games has been steadily going up as new beta versions come out.

In either case, Vista is far, far from Windows ME. It has been rock solid in my experience - not a single crash here (applications have indeed crashed, but not the OS). In short, if your hardware is supported under Vista, you'll be fine.

grey_moon · 2007-05-25, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by avmoghe

IMy understanding of this is that UAC is MS's attempt to finally force third party developers to write their applications correctly - applications cannot write to Program Files directory, for example (without a manifest).

Don't mean to sound anti M$ (as lots of my career has been based on supporting their products), but Office 2003 is not third party

avmoghe · 2007-05-25, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Don't mean to sound anti M$ (as lots of my career has been based on supporting their products), but Office 2003 is not third party

Hehe. I didn't realize Office 2003 fell into this category. Either way, I think using UAC to force certain standards on 3rd party tools is a good idea from MS (albeit a bit late.... who can forget the chaos on the non-NT MS systems)

Ending · 2007-05-26, 10:11

There is already something similar in WinXP, called "Data Execution Preventation", shortly "DEP." Add the programs you trust there and no virii should be able to execute, even if it somehow managed to get through your firewall in the first place.

You don't need Vista to make your computer secure. In fact, it may have the opposite effect, since it's a all new can of worms with a large number of security-holes. WinXP has been in the markets for years and been tested true. It's dominant in the market with a reason.

WanderingKnight · 2007-05-26, 10:32

Quote:

WinXP has been in the markets for years and been tested true. It's dominant in the market with a reason.

And the fact that 90% of the home users are too lazy to try something else.

masama · 2007-05-26, 12:24

I really shouldnt have asked about which OS to get, so many opinions

Anyway for those who care (probably no one), I'm going to get a notebook with Vista Ultimate, mainly for its Multilingual User Interface (MUI). From what I read it is exactly what I've been looking for, along with the so called improved speech recognition.

Don't think I have much to worry about compatibilities since the only program I need working is Firefox and I'm pretty sure it's Vista friendly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

And the fact that 90% of the home users are too lazy to try something else.

I see it as "if it works, why change it?"

WanderingKnight · 2007-05-26, 14:19

Quote:

I see it as "if it works, why change it?"

"Because it might work better", perhaps?

J/K. But it's a known fact that a large portion of the market MS holds is due to the common user ignorance about the existence of other operative systems.

npal · 2007-05-26, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

"Because it might work better", perhaps?

J/K. But it's a known fact that a large portion of the market MS holds is due to the common user ignorance about the existence of other operative systems.

I beg to differ. In my opinion it's a number of other factors

1) Hardware and software support which is more or less ruled by Microsoft.
2) Inability of the other systems to assimilate the average user at a comfortable level.
3) People used to the Windows way, and since it's working, why bother?

People know Mac and they have come to know Linux, but from what I see, only the more computer literate take the time to actually check systems besides Windows, although Mac seems to fare better in that aspect.

WanderingKnight · 2007-05-26, 16:37

Quote:

People know Mac and they have come to know Linux, but from what I see, only the more computer literate take the time to actually check systems besides Windows, although Mac seems to fare better in that aspect.

I don't see how is that statement differing with what I said earlier

grey_moon · 2007-05-26, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by masama

Don't think I have much to worry about compatibilities since the only program I need working is Firefox and I'm pretty sure it's Vista friendly.

Hee hee if you do have any problems with codecs (anime neh?), then you might need to disable UAX, there has been a recent post on the playback forum in regards to this.....

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=47812

Ooo voice recoginition, I remember testing DragonDictate (I think that is what it is called), about 8 years ago. At first I thought I needed elocution lessons, but then every one of us was having the same problems. The funniest was one of the testers was doing his masters at the time and thought it was a great idea to write up his final year project with it. needless to say we didn't buy it

Let me know how good the Vista one is please!

Good luck with it!

2007-05-22, 08:59	Link #41
grey_moon Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!! Join Date: Dec 2004	@npal - So true, but good having the user defaulted to a non admin account should mean that malware only damages the users environment and not the whole system. Ofc that is if the bugger doesn't pop up a sudo/uax box asking the user to grant it admin rights hahahahah. Is it possible to dl the beta version of Vista still? or a demo version? It would be nice for the op to be able to test it out, but I guess they would still need to install it somewhere , M$ learn the beauty of live cds please! __________________

2007-05-22, 14:12	Link #42
npal I desire Tomorrow! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: As far away from reality as possible Age: 41	Isn't Windows now almost doing the same thing? (provided the UAC cannot be overcome by malware, although if it can be compromised, it's more than useless so it must have some value being there). Linux doesn't need malware to get out of order, just some average user trying to compile something harmless the wrong way and mess up the kernel And to answer a question, indeed I favor comfort more than security, since I believe that security is ultimately a user choice and no amount of protection can protect you from yourself and whatever moronic thing you may do. So I'd rather have them drop security a bit and have room for antiviral and firewall programs and give me the ease to work around in relative peace. Linux is nice (with a preference to KDE) but after having spend time in Linux, I still prefer Windows' way of things. Linux is a decent alternative though, provided that developers have drivers for it. My only problem is that my new 2900XT Ati doesn't have linux drivers so my time with Linux right now is non existent. I also have a serious problem with X-Fi and Linux (no Creative drivers in the horizon, a supposed release was postponed for another 3 months and it gets frustrating changing cables every time I want to get to Linux). Then again, my Vista Ultimate are working more or less ok so I'm not in that much of a hurry @grey_moon, just for the record if you need to just try out Vista, test the 32bit version. The 64bit doesn't accept unsigned drivers (unless you turn off that module but I don't like turning off core services, tried it once) which is a pain for some things, and 64bit software just isn't there so you are running 32bit software in emulation most of the time. And since I haven't encountered any problems related to DRM yet (I had a resource problem probably caused by nVidia's crappy ATA driver for 680 chipset), I don't mind Vista. If all things fail, there's always Linux as there was Linux with my XP On-topic The real problem is that a number of OEM have stopped shipping XP, so finding XP is hard. If you don't mind Linux being more or less always on the bleeding edge (that's my experience anyway), better stick to an easy Linux package, if you can't find XP and don't want OS X. In any case, I advice against getting Vista if you are not used to the early adopter syndromes (which are painful sometimes). __________________

2007-05-22, 20:57	Link #45
grey_moon Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!! Join Date: Dec 2004	One of the many apps was Office 2k3, it needed write rights to various areas of the windows directory , have they sorted it out in 2k7? In regards to trialing other OS, even through I am a SuSE person myself, I would recommend trying Ubuntu, (or Kubuntu if u like a more windows, errr kde feeling). It is just so nice to install and use. The desktop version is a live cd and there is an icon to install it to your hard drive if you like it. Ubuntu has taken a Mac approach to the user jailing process and it asks for your own password to elevate the rights to allow you to install stuff (it actually uses sudo if you like reading up the more geeky stuff). I've been testing Vista myself and due to either it being resource hungry, or some incompatibility with VMware, it runs dog slow. My poor VMware box trembles when I switch on the Vista guest __________________

2007-05-23, 16:49	Link #47
npal I desire Tomorrow! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: As far away from reality as possible Age: 41	True but you can just install Vista as trial and then install Vista again on top of the previous installation and THEN enter your upgrade vista key __________________

2007-05-23, 22:49	Link #48
WanderingKnight Gregory House IT Support Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Age: 35	But I believed the general message was: don't upgrade. For the sake of Jebus, don't. Get a fresh HD and start with that. But don't upgrade, for the sake of whatever you love. __________________ Place them in a box until a quieter time \| Lights down, you up and die.

2007-05-22, 18:51	Link #43
Epyon9283 Geek Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Jersey Age: 40	UAC isn't really like how Linux or OS X works. Windows already had user accounts and groups of varying permissions. It also always had a way to run a process as another user. The whole reason for UAC on Vista is that there are way too many apps out there for Windows that assume the user will have administrative privileges. They write to locations they shouldn't be writing to on the filesystem or registry and/or make calls to things a normal user shouldn't have access to. Vista virtualizes a lot of these locations so that apps run without admin privileges. If MS wasn't so concerned with backwards compatibility and ease of use they'd just make normal user accounts the default in Windows. Make everyone use runas to run things as an administrator. That'd basically get you what we have in Linux.

2007-05-24, 00:26	Link #49
grey_moon Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!! Join Date: Dec 2004	I think the hard part may actually be getting the Vista install in the first place to trial it... __________________

2007-05-24, 13:18	Link #50
arcadeplayer987 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007	I agree with grey_moon. Try it and you will take the best solution

2007-05-24, 21:52	Link #51
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	I've been using Vista on and off for the past six months. Generally, my experience has been positive. If you have over 1 Gigabyte of RAM and a decent video card, I suggest upgrading. The main reason why I urge people to upgrade is the security. With UAC, you will be asked to verify administrative tasks. If you're logged in as administrator, you just need to click "allow". My understanding of this is that UAC is MS's attempt to finally force third party developers to write their applications correctly - applications cannot write to Program Files directory, for example (without a manifest). If you don't like the prompts, you can turn UAC off. One other important advantage was the sound - my onboard Realtek audio sounds a lot better under Vista than it did under XP. This probably can be attributed to the new audio stack. My biggest gripe with the OS has been the long delays for copying files across partitions. As other posters have suggested, make sure your hardware is supported - hardware manufacturers have dropped the ball on drivers. NVidia drivers are still beta quality - the fps in games has been steadily going up as new beta versions come out. In either case, Vista is far, far from Windows ME. It has been rock solid in my experience - not a single crash here (applications have indeed crashed, but not the OS). In short, if your hardware is supported under Vista, you'll be fine.

2007-05-26, 10:11	Link #54
Ending Senior Member Join Date: May 2004	There is already something similar in WinXP, called "Data Execution Preventation", shortly "DEP." Add the programs you trust there and no virii should be able to execute, even if it somehow managed to get through your firewall in the first place. You don't need Vista to make your computer secure. In fact, it may have the opposite effect, since it's a all new can of worms with a large number of security-holes. WinXP has been in the markets for years and been tested true. It's dominant in the market with a reason.