2009-06-11, 21:53 | Link #1261 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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About Bern being evil... I think some people started from the wrong assumption. Bern never stated she's an heroin bent on world's salvation. Quite the contrary.
Bern doesn't have any problem stating that she is a cruel witch, and she's not joking when she says so. She might feel sympathy for Battler but in the end she is a witch, she is looking at human beings as mere pawns and source of entertainment to beat boredom the worst poison for a witch like her. Evil? Good? She's neither, she's beyond that. There isn't really any twist in Bern's personality, she's always been like that from the beginning. Spoiler for secret tea party:
As for the ending, I think solving the riddle is the key for everyone's salvation, but that has to be done by Battler.
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2009-06-11, 22:01 | Link #1262 | |
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Artist
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ImaginaryLand
Age: 33
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2009-06-12, 03:32 | Link #1266 | |
*cackle*
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 29
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Bernkastel said herself that she was a cruel witch, crueler then beato. She didn't even act that mean in the ???? in my opinion. She's always been a weird one.
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2009-06-12, 06:56 | Link #1267 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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The biggest problem I think is creating a tension and mystery filled ending that no one dies. Unlike Higurashi that had an active player who has tremendous pre-emptive knowledge of the events about to unfold, so far none of the active pieces has shown to possess any knowledge of previous events.
The thing is, meta Battler being the central character, he pretty much only reacts to the events and has no say in the way things go. The game occurs because someone dies, and Battler has no control of the events that transpire. In short, unless we maybe get a deus ex machina where meta Battler literally enters from the meta world to influence the events and help everyone survive, he is just an observer to the things at hand. Any and all attempts to survive fall squarely flat on the pieces of the game, and unless they do intrinsically know that something's wrong they're just people waiting to die every game. Meta Battler can't stop, influence or control so far what happens in every game. The premise of their game is that he should be able to find a realistic solution to the murders, NOT to find a way for everyone to survive. As it stands, the rules of the internal reality of the game is that people die, and from a metaphysical perspective the game cannot exist if the required game events do not occur. If no one dies, meta Battler cannot prove a human causation to the deaths.
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2009-06-12, 07:00 | Link #1268 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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As far as it goes, Bernkastel has her own agenda, and having a creepy smile isn't even proof of "good" or "evil". To the contrary, she is the less twisted if you think in a contest sense. And nothing guarantee that she didn't do that just to tag along with Lambda, who is extremely frantic in such kind of stuff. Thinking back how Bern suffered back in higurashi, you can expect her not to be totally insensitive to Beato's eternal torture. Quote:
As in, if you compare Battler with Rika's ordeal, they are in the same boat, though indeed, Battler himself is like watching a show on TV. However, due to his own nature of being an observer, he can ALSO decide which ones he "watch" or not. Thefore, nothing would prevent him to actually gain a world where the culprit is stopped in his mad plan. Of course, game wise, the witch side would never let it happen until Battler vainquish it completely. But there is certainly a possibility for a "good end" without sounding like a Deus Ex Machina. The whole "game" itself shouldn't exist if you take the strict sense of Anti Fantasy. Therefore, you can admit a certain element.
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2009-06-12, 07:01 | Link #1269 | |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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Okay it's only said in magic pov but Kanon and Shannon do remember everything clearly xD *joking*
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2009-06-12, 07:09 | Link #1270 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway If we deny any kind of supernatural... then I wonder... maybe we can use a quantum physic perspective. There are different alternate realities coexisting at this moment. In most of them everyone dies, however there might be one where Battler solves any mystery and everyone survives. If Battler is the observer then he can observe that particular reality and make the wave function collapse in it. Yes this is pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo, but I don't think you can find something better ^^;
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2009-06-12, 07:16 | Link #1271 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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This in turn gives a logical problematic: if a world does exist where the murderer fails, doesn't the mere existence of this world contradict the powers of a witch? If by strict definition a witch in that situation could have killed anyone anytime with no problem, a failure to kill them means a failure of the witch's definition of power and in turn is a contradiction to her existence. If a world exists where the witch cannot supposedly kill them, then the witch must not be a witch, and thus does not exist. This is an existential problem. The mere presentation of this world as a probable existence contradicts witches themselves, and by this mere existence Battler has won before the game has even started. A witch should be able to someone in every world. If by her "powers" she is unable to kill even one to negate Battler's wish where everyone survives, then the witch has no real power at all. From a Magical perspective of real witches, this world should no exist and Battler will never encounter this whatever the dice rolls, so his endeavor is meaningless. However from a Realist point of view, Beato is forced to hide or delay the appearance of this world in order to force Battler to submit, because once Battler finds this world it's mere existence is his victory.
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2009-06-12, 07:38 | Link #1272 |
Counter Force
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I think I read an interview with Ryuukishi (translated into my native language) that because Umineko has a differnet theme and feeling than Higurashi, it does not neccessary to have a happy ending where everyone survives.
So I think we should not have a very high hope that everyone will be alive after Battler finally beat Beatrice. It might result in a lone survivor or no survivors incidents but still can be prove by human theory. But for me I don't expect a very good ending for Umineko.
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Last edited by Alaya; 2009-06-12 at 14:22. |
2009-06-12, 07:52 | Link #1274 | |
エーレンフェストの聖女
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dollars
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Seconded Nadeor.
Spoiler:
Guess I should go for Anti-mystery for now, but still trying to debate how the murder happen as an anti-fantasy for fun. Seriously, there's going to be some powerful drug that can make all the adults see and perceive the same 'magic event' happening at the same time. I don't think I would be surprised if Ryukishi brings us some illogical weapon or machine at the answer arc Spoiler:
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Well. . if Ryukishi decided to force it, if there's something that happened beyond the normal plot, the killing might not happened at all. If all the murders here was planned beforehand, it is possible to prevent it by conducting a plot that is unaccounted for. Of course, because of the event was planned during the game, it takes 'miracle' to do something like this IMO
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2009-06-12, 08:14 | Link #1275 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Spoiler for Bern:
As for the end game and the 'final' world as a result, I think the message bottle at the end of every OP is a clue. Though wikipedia states that the object of the game is to 'reach a conclusion where everyone survives', i find that extremely doubtful. However, I still think Battler is in some kind of purgatory, and the only thing that will 'truly' change should Battler win is the contents of the message bottle would be different, exposing the truth behind the murders of Rokkenjima and thus Ange's family return to her, not 'literally' but she'll be able to move on with her life. |
2009-06-12, 08:47 | Link #1277 | |||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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The fact the culprit isn't a witch doesn't impair in the slightest the witch's side. However, it would just be Beato's defeat, since her goal is to prove the existence of the witches to battler. In fact, like mentioned way before, both Battler and Beato's winning conditions ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Quote:
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Heck, if from this point of view, if witches really do exist at that point, they could simply appear in front of Battler and pulls an instant checkmate. You are merging too much the concept of the meta world with the actual world.
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2009-06-12, 08:55 | Link #1278 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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@Meotwister
You have brought up some valid points. However maybe this conundrum can be solved with a different approach. For example, according to Beatrice, Battler's sin is one of the cause of the current situation. So it is not necessary for a murder to occur. Battler could solve everything by remembering his sin and make up for it before anything happens. More in detail. The witch side will never present to Battler a game where nothing happens. But Beatrice has complete control over the game board. Should Meta Battler defeat the witch, unveiling any mystery and denying any fantasy, Beatrice would lose her power and her control over the game board. At that point I think Bernkastel would take over bringing Battler to the best possible Kakera, and that could be anything... even a kakera where Battler didn't commit a sin in the first place (best possible fate), or maybe a kakera where some people die, but Battler still manages to save himself and a few other and the culprit is busted. There's plenty of possibilities.
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2009-06-12, 11:44 | Link #1280 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Regarding the discussion from last page, I always just assumed that, regardless of whether there is magic or not, similar to Higurashi, this scenario ALWAYS = bad end.
While there may be worlds where nothing bad happens, Spoiler for Higurashi Kai/Rei:
this specific set of things that happen (since everything before the 'cut off date' of October 4th seems to always happen) always leads to everyone dying. |
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