2011-11-21, 07:37 | Link #25801 | |||||
The True Culprit
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But my point is that Prime is one big unknowable blank with current information. It's in no way comparable to "fuck it, magic so it's IMPOSSIBLE to REASON." We can reason fine, but we can't confirm a damn thing, so we can't make statements like "I don't think EP8's Bern puzzle is reliable" any more than we can say "EP7 Tea Party is totally the truth." Every bit of information we have, for the most part, is a 'maybe'. Quote:
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2011-11-21, 08:32 | Link #25802 | ||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The hidden frames seem to raise even more questions, like for the example the presence of George. Quote:
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A failure in the attempt to invalidate a theory tells you a lot more than a success in the attempt to validate it. However in Umineko this kind of process tend to become ridiculous when you are entitled to dismiss entire scenes as "fake". How exactly can you invalidate a theory then? There has to be a logic behind that. And if there isn't... well then it's probably useless to even try to speculate. Quote:
There is absolutely no comparison to, for example, Shkanon that can count on his side several dialogues that directly point at that with the correct interpretation. The play on words on Hachijo's name maybe just means she's the new Beatrice, as she is in a sense since she wrote the forgeries. Though I admit it isn't really satisfying, but I admit I'm kinda at loss as to why Ryuukishi placed those hints (or red herrings) like that in such a crude manner. However Renall pointed out another pretty similar situation, and I fear I cannot really tell where Ryuukishi is trying to get us to some truth or just teasing us. Quote:
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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2011-11-21, 09:12 | Link #25803 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Well I mentioned already that RK07 stated that the "numbers in name" wasn't really a thing ( at least to Shannon and Kanon) whether or not it applies to Ikuko is up in the air. He's done a lot of subverting with easy to spot things like this, still it comes down on whether you prefer that Ikuko was a random stranger or a person Battler new before.
Anyways on a different tangent, something I picked up reading a quote from another forum Mathew 25:31- “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. "...he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He then goes on about how basically the sheep deserve heaven for being good people and the goats deserve to burn in hell for being bad people. Do you think RK07, a person that MUST have read some choice segments of the bible out of necessity for his novel, was somehow influenced by this. Would you rather be a sheep or a goat? |
2011-11-21, 09:33 | Link #25804 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Concerning George (too lazy to quote messages from last page)
I can sorta get how he was suspcious to a relative extent in the early arcs. However Chiru doesn't seem to have promoted the idea at all and instead promoted that Eva was most likely innocent. So to go back with my original question, about a satisfying culprit, would you be really satisfied with George as culprit? Personally I think the level of "evidence" against George is something nearly all the characters have. I also think George would be the least satisfying culprit along with Jessica as they'd come out close to being 100% fake. Oh and a sort of suggestion, I guess? Jan and Jiblue's long messages made me think of it but... Well doing a "size spoiler" whenever a message is longer then what fits in a screen (1080 I guess) would really be appreciated, at least by me ^^;; Especially when said message is about 50% "broken" quotes from previous messages. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-21 at 10:26. |
2011-11-21, 09:43 | Link #25805 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Nearly all the characters kinda drop out of the radar during the core arcs. So we really cant focus on them if we want to try to find out who's the culprit. If there was a culprit thats not Yasu, and we can figure it out base on the texts, then it had to be written by Battler on a subconscious level. I dont think we can use hard evidence in in the stories since those barely exist and the little that do point at Yasu.
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2011-11-21, 09:56 | Link #25806 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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Can someone explain It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! again?
Does Yasu count as a servant? or as someone said (sorry don't remmember who) it was not spoken in Beato's gameboard,but if that's true and beato's gameboard does not support Van Dine , how was WIll able to say other rules IN Beato's Gameboard. |
2011-11-21, 10:03 | Link #25807 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Guess I'm really not making my point clearly...
I'm trying to say that there cannot be a truly satisfying culprit for Rokkenjima prime outside of personal hatred for a character or personal pet theory that goes way back. The main reason is as you say that we basically know nothing about Rokkenjima Prime (to the point that I doubt it exists at all). Furthermore the people who seemingly know the truth/learned the truth never had a spectacular change of heart toward a character on the gameboard (well except toward Beatrice I guess). Then no matter who'd be the culprit, Ange and Battler both seems to have originally held a lot of hatred for the "idea of the culprit" yet when they learned the truth everything just seems to vanish. I've read theories about it being to protect someone else or whatever but I really don't think that's the attitude gamemaster Battler had toward anyone. I also am fairly certain that Bernkastel would've enjoyed rubbing that "horrible truth" in our face. The excuse of Battler's love or possibly guilt or other feelings that would explain his "attitude change" is not compatible with Will and Ange's own reactions. Actually Will's quite a good "hint" I believe as he never even barely cared about Rokkenjima Prime. Within the arcs, the culprit is "Yasu" or however you want to call the person behind Shannon and Kanon, that much should be obvious to everyone by now, that they like the theory or not. Then for the rest Ryuukishi picked a bunch of different characters (Eva, Natsuhi, Erika, Kyrie, Rudolph, Battler and arguably Rosa) and played with the idea they might be culprit, but always in the light that we should find it offensive and impossible to accept - even if it should actually be the truth(including Erika in arc 6 as the "heart" would be ridiculous). To resume things, from the character's attitudes and reactions, I deduce that whatever happened or didn't happen in Rokkenjima Prime is not something where you end up hating or even blaming anyone. No matter who the culprit would be at this point, it couldn't really be satisfying as you'd have to explain why is it that everyone who figures out the truth (as opposed to simply Battler or Beatrice) decides to "protect" said culprit. Ange protecting George? Ridiculous. Quote:
From what we were told in arc 4, anyone in the Umineko universe can try to say things in red but it will only succeed if it's actually valid. Look at Battler's attempt to say things in red in arc 4. |
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2011-11-21, 10:05 | Link #25808 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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"Beatrice" is the culprit and she's a witch. Or, "Yasu" is the culprit but she ain't Shannon or Kanon, so she aint a servant. She's actually the head of the Ushiromiyas. Or the reds dont apply to the other games. Or she isn't the culprit at all. Take your pic and just go with it! |
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2011-11-21, 10:41 | Link #25809 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I agree with UsagiTempura that I can't really see how Umineko can have a satisfying culprit at this point.
But the main problem is that no matter what you pick, it would come out as either a total ass pull (Hey the culprit is Hideyoshi, who had a complicated story and background that made him do that, but none of that was ever told or properly hinted through 8 fucking arcs!) or the confirmation of one of the usual suspects that however doesn't make anyone happy or satisfied: ("Kyrie did it, the goats were right! meh..." or "Yasu did it... and it was awfully stupid...") In order to have a satisfying culprit you'd need at least (at least!) one chapter entirely centered on the culprit motive and the background that led him to that decision. However the only character that got that is Yasu. Kyrie just grabbing the chance to get the money is just lame... and retarded... Let me say this, but any kind of murder plan where you have an apparent motive and that doesn't also include the construction of an alibi for yourself is far from being a smart plan. Even worse if you won't be able to deny that you were in fact on the crime scene at the time of the crime! Even worse if it'd be hard to explain who else could do it beside you.
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2011-11-21, 10:57 | Link #25810 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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- Why does Ikuko randomly adopt a stranger into her family and keep him a secret? (Because she knew who he was and didn't want him to become a suspect in the incident.) - Why do things that Battler shouldn't have known keep finding their way into Tohya's stories? (Because they were inserted by Ikuko.) - Why are the third and fourth games considered by Will and Clair to be Beatrice's work? (Because Ikuko helped write them.) - What was Yasu doing during the two-year blank leading up to the incident? (She was secretly building the identity of "the rich novelist Ikuko Hachijou" and considering whether to abandon her life on the island.)
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2011-11-21, 11:12 | Link #25811 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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If it's close to the number theory, then that means it's something different than the number theory.
What else can that be? Word theory is the only thing I can think off. So Kanon is Jesus... Whatever Ryuukishi...
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2011-11-21, 11:13 | Link #25812 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Regarding whether or not we can actually have a "satisfactory" R-Prime culprit - well, probably not, no.
However, I blatantly disagree that a situation that had over a dozen people going to a family function as they do every year and EXPLODING TO DEATH didn't involve someone being a douchebag. Eva's presence in the Kuwadorian has always discredited the idea that the explosion was entirely accidental. Long story short, SOMEBODY did SOMETHING that, at the very least, pushed the first gilded domino. |
2011-11-21, 11:13 | Link #25813 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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It really is circumstantial, instead of using the number connection I used the religious one. Yoshiya, Sayo, Yasu and Lion could all have a link to Jesus, and if she really is taking the fall for everyone in the island then it fits thematically as well. So it depends on what you want to actually happen, unless RK07 comes out with an absolute definitive truth we really wont know.
e- I really have tried to make a lot of religious connections to this story, I think the general intrigue of it started in EP2. I had to ask myself why a japanese writer whose other work I've seen was very japanese (shinto) and then have a sudden shift to western (christian) motifs. I guess growing up in japan you would know more about shinto that you would about christianity, so he would have to willingly subject himself to learning at least something about it. You wouldnt spend that much time researching quotes in the bible and the key of solomon just for them to be very minor elements in the story. |
2011-11-21, 12:35 | Link #25814 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Nearly all writers do some mythology and technical research to know what they are using in their stories. There isn't anything very particular about that. Also Im fairly certain that most of Ryuukishi's "research" can be resumed as reading the divine comedy (concerning religious symbols), which he obviously did. |
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2011-11-21, 12:42 | Link #25815 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2011-11-21, 13:32 | Link #25816 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Basic knowledge of a material would be something like he used in Dante's inferno. You know its about a guy going trough all different parts in hell, purgatory and then heaven to find his lost love. Along the way he gets a guide name Virgilius and even Beatrice is a guide at one point.
Passing knowledge about christianity would be something like, its about a guy that claimed to be god's son and died in a cross for our sins. Passing knowledge about WW2 would be that you knew that there where Allied and Axis powers fighting for their own reasons, usually economical and imperialistic. Actually going about and naming passages that would seem completely irrelevant or that you could simply ignore and use less obscured ones though? RK07 seriously just on a whim decided to use the Emmanuel passage when he could just have used any passage that used Jesus? I dont know, it seems like he had deeper intentions with those lines or he's a sperg on details like these. e- He really didnt have to read all of the key, just the plates. But he also had to gather more somewhere since some of the things he references aren't there. |
2011-11-21, 13:46 | Link #25817 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But you see the fact that a character's name refers to something else in literature, mythology and so on doesn't always mean that there is a deep meaning behind that. There's plenty of examples of that in anime and manga.
Incidentally "Cao Ni Ma" what exactly made you chose that politically incorrect nick?
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2011-11-21, 14:13 | Link #25818 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Die the death.The Great equalizer is the DEATH Does that even really mean anything...? How is it true? Is it just said in red because it's cool? |
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2011-11-21, 14:22 | Link #25819 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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As for my name, I freaking love Grass Mud Horses and its easier to have this name in forums that my more known nickname of Cross. (surprisingly enough, Ive been agnostic since 3rd grade ) |
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