[Manga] Chapter 399 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I highly doubt that a statute of Madara would have been made if he had killed several or even a few Shinobi when he fled Konoha (you generally do not construct a monument commemorating the dead or a battle by using their killers likeness as part of the monument). Added to that, Kakashi clearly compared the Hashirama v Madara battle to the Sasuke v Naruto battle, so that is a very strong hint that it was a one-on-one fight

That's an interesting point, however there's the admiration of power too, which is true regardeless of how evil power is it. In this case we could say that this is a monument to the fight of the "good" and "evil" in their strongest form. Since that was the moment when "the will of fire" won over the old ways of chaos we can assume that regardless of how evil Madara was he had to be on the monument as without him it would make no sense. Attacking the hokage is the same as attacking the village, also in that chaotic world Madara and his Uchiha have already killed many senju (and vice versa) before the village was founded, so i think killing some senju and non-senju ninja was not something that would prevent them to make that monument. Religious people also make sculptures and paintings of satan or whatever evil while they believe it to be a mass murederer evil entity.

Anyway my assumption is based on the other kyuubi attack, where it was stated that many Konoha ninja died. The effects should be similar, affecting the lives of many people, just like a natural disaster.

[svinpaels]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

This chapter had me thinking in a lot of things. maybe threads can be created about this if Hunter find reasons for it.

First, what if the life source of a sharingan user is in their eyes? Not an Uchiha, but an Uchiha with a sharingan? I mean, Madara's brother died because his eyes were plucked/removed? WTF? How can you die from that unless it had something to do with his life source. Considering that Madara was impaled and declared dead but he survived? Remember when Itachi said that although Madara lose the fight, his eyes still remained intact? Maybe it his eyes had something to do with him surviving, along his with high chakra, which Madara implied that helped him live this long. This also bring the question, will Sasuke's lifespan last as long as Madara, since Kyuubi stated that Sasuke's chakra was like Madara's.

Would be interesting if the sharingan somehow was related to kyuubi, and if kyuubi died the sharingan would sieze to exist. In that case all Uchihas would die and Sasuke would indeed regret killing Naruto, since he would die himself Likely end battle would be between Naruto and kkyuubi and Naruto not beeing able to kill kyuubi since sasuke would die....

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by svinpaels

Would be interesting if the sharingan somehow was related to kyuubi, and if kyuubi died the sharingan would sieze to exist. In that case all Uchihas would die and Sasuke would indeed regret killing Naruto, since he would die himself Likely end battle would be between Naruto and kkyuubi and Naruto not beeing able to kill kyuubi since sasuke would die....

That is fanfiction and has a less than 2% chance than happening, if anything there might have been a guy who wanted power, went to the kyuubi who poured his chakra into his sharingan creating the MS but to get the power he would have to sacrifice his best friend to the kyuubi to get it, maybe the kyuubi then warns the guy 'This doujutsu is not perfect and the more you use it the quicker you will descend into darkness...if you want the full extent of the doujutsu sacrifice your brother to show that you are willing'

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's an interesting point, however there's the admiration of power too, which is true regardeless of how evil power is it. In this case we could say that this is a monument to the fight of the "good" and "evil" in their strongest form. Since that was the moment when "the will of fire" won over the old ways of chaos we can assume that regardless of how evil Madara was he had to be on the monument as without him it would make no sense.

They were the two leading forces to unify the clans, regardless of how uninterested Madara was about that. Madara made a choice and fought against Shodai.

Note that, it is possible that Shodai considered the fight as something to stop Madara from leaving in addition to stopping him from killing Hokage. That part is actually similar to Sasuke's and Naruto's fight. And, if Sasuke were to die during that fight, when Naruto survives as the Hokage, Sasuke's name may have been remembered in a good way rather than bad (the past was already forgotten to some level when the clans united).

[chitgoks]

now this chapter was interesting ...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's an interesting point, however there's the admiration of power too, which is true regardeless of how evil power is it. In this case we could say that this is a monument to the fight of the "good" and "evil" in their strongest form. Since that was the moment when "the will of fire" won over the old ways of chaos we can assume that regardless of how evil Madara was he had to be on the monument as without him it would make no sense. Attacking the hokage is the same as attacking the village, also in that chaotic world Madara and his Uchiha have already killed many senju (and vice versa) before the village was founded, so i think killing some senju and non-senju ninja was not something that would prevent them to make that monument. Religious people also make sculptures and paintings of satan or whatever evil while they believe it to be a mass murederer evil entity.

Good points all (and yet another comparison between Madara and Satan pops up ), but the inbold text is specifically how I viewed Madara's comment that he "challenged Konoha": by challenging the Hokage he was challenging Konoha.

[Ryuujin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

So...you compare the Bijuu with boss summonings? I think Manda, Gamabunta and Katsyu all three together teaming up still wouldnt stand a chance against the Kyuubi.

Shukaku fully unleased would also defeat Gamabunta and Manda probably aswell.. it's a shame but i think these rare Bijuu are being underestimated..

It's hard not to underestimate the tailed beasts when they've done nothing but job to Akatsuki since Part 2 began...

[Super_Gilby]

Wow did the uchiha have enough military power to take over Konoha? I doubt they had anyone strong enough to beat The 3rd or Jiraiya ... especially considering they were all killed apparently by just 2 people... -_-

[nines]

wow alot of the spoiler accusations where pretty good they seemed to work out good lol

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Super_Gilby

Wow did the uchiha have enough military power to take over Konoha? I doubt they had anyone strong enough to beat The 3rd or Jiraiya ... especially considering they were all killed apparently by just 2 people... -_-

I wonder what they were thinking myself... such a battle regardless of the winner would have left the village ripe for the picking by one of the other ninja villages.

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I wonder what they were thinking myself... such a battle regardless of the winner would have left the village ripe for the picking by one of the other ninja villages.

Well the initiators and participators of a Coup d'etat don't necessarily have to have the complete military means as much as the mindset and tactics. We have to remember that these are the Uchiha who at one point in time where one of the two strongest clans so them planning and maybe believing that they could successfully uprise and overthrow the ones in control of Konoha might of not been so out of touch to them, even if it was a lost cause.

[ace_TZ]

After this chapter ...

Hashirama :
Changed the world. So strong that he defeated madara (strongest uchiha) together with his pet. Powerful enough to win uchiha clan's heart too.

Madara :
Wanna be God. Specialist in plotting, scouting and ruining genius young ninja's life for his throne. Want to recreate the world as it was when he was young. Also a teacher to itachi, most likely pain and sasuke (later).

Itachi :
A Psycho ? One side madara, the other side danzo they messed his mind - maybe a sacrifice

Sasuke :
Betrayer! Whatever path he choose he will betray either his clan (maybe his father too) or betray konoho, naruto, sakura if he follow madara

Pain :
One way or other for me Its just a bloody business.

Jiraiya :
My Key (bank wallet) to Naruto and/or Tsunade.

Tsunade :
I boozzeeedd for my Dan, for my brother and now for jiraiya. Senju clan ends in a pretty pathetic way doesn't it?

Naruto :
Where do i belong?

Kyuubi :
Thanks to Naruto - I became dumber and weaker than ever before.

Sakura :
I bitch naruto. (If naruto ignores her, she will become Tenten)

Kishi :
My manga exploded.


By the way in konoho there exists many clans, did the senju clan brought the famous clans like Hyuga, nara , Akimichi into their control either through diplomacy (mutual understanding) or through conquest. It seems uchiha clan alone and madara in particular had contempt in the creation of the village.

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by quebas

What about kakuzu??? If the 1st Hokage was such a badass how could kakuzu live through a battle whith the 1st???

Maybe Kakuzu lay on the ground beaten to a pulp with only his real heart left realising he had no way of defeating Shodai and faked being dead.

[Frenchie]

Wait... what?

Alright, this chapter said lots and also gives birth to a whole bunch of other questions.

I'm pretty sure Madara is lying on a part of the tale. Unless it is covered in the next chapters, I believe he is either omitting information or simply disguising the tale.

I mean, what's his motive to kill the Uchiha clan with Itachi?

1. It would mean he'd work in favor of Danzou + Advisors.
2. It would mean he eventually led to the demise of his own clan.
3. It would mean that his brother's sacrifice was in vain.
4. It would mean that he doesn't care for the Uchiha any longer.

What's the deal? Even if he wanted to lead on Itachi to later get rid of him, why allow him to be inside Akatsuki and jeopardize their operations? Why kill off the Uchiha clan? Whim of his? Why not participate in the coup d'etat instead of killing off his clan? Was it revenge? What does Akatsuki got to do in all of this?

And finally, why the hell does he need Sasuke to do something for him of all people? I mean he's the immortal one that noone can even touch.

And does that mean he was watching every kid in the Uchiha clan Orochimaru-style for potential?

Too... many... questions...

[svinpaels]

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

That is fanfiction and has a less than 2% chance than happening, if anything there might have been a guy who wanted power, went to the kyuubi who poured his chakra into his sharingan creating the MS but to get the power he would have to sacrifice his best friend to the kyuubi to get it, maybe the kyuubi then warns the guy 'This doujutsu is not perfect and the more you use it the quicker you will descend into darkness...if you want the full extent of the doujutsu sacrifice your brother to show that you are willing'

that would not explain alot of stuff like why kyuubi told sasuke that he would regret killing naruto etc...

I personaly dont like the Idea of the Uchihas life force depending on their eyes, but quite a few things make it plausable.

- Madaras brother died while going blind ( atleast it seems so )

- Itachi died randomly at a time when we knew he was clise to blindness yet kept spamming MS jutsus...

- Madara did not die somehow at a time even the first thought he had to be dead...

- A cheese ending where Naruto cant kill kyuubi without killing sasuke but yet somehow manage to solve the situation using his was of the ninja blabla would not be that far fetched...

[Last of the Uchihas]

Originally Posted by Super_Gilby

Wow did the uchiha have enough military power to take over Konoha? I doubt they had anyone strong enough to beat The 3rd or Jiraiya ... especially considering they were all killed apparently by just 2 people... -_-

they were killed by Itachi, who is the greatest genius in history and who had no equal in Konoha and by Madara, the greatest Uchihas

Originally Posted by ace_TZ

After this chapter ...

Hashirama :
Changed the world. So strong that he defeated madara (strongest uchiha) together with his pet. Powerful enough to win uchiha clan's heart too.

actually, the only two reason they voted for Hashirama was because they wnated peace and didn't want Madara as their leader, not because of his strngth as you say.

Madara :
Wanna be God. Specialist in plotting, scouting and ruining genius young ninja's life for his throne. Want to recreate the world as it was when he was young. Also a teacher to itachi, most likely pain and sasuke (later).

Wannabe god? Surviving Shodai and living this long and you call him a wannabe god?Where is Shodai by the way?

Itachi :
A Psycho ? One side madara, the other side danzo they messed his mind - maybe a sacrifice

lol, a Psycho? Why, because he killed his clan in orders from Konoha? I guess Minato is too a psycho for sealing a demon inside his son.

Sasuke :
Betrayer! Whatever path he choose he will betray either his clan (maybe his father too) or betray konoho, naruto, sakura if he follow madara

lol, Sasuke a betrayer? What manga have you been reading?

By the way in konoho there exists many clans, did the senju clan brought the famous clans like Hyuga, nara , Akimichi into their control either through diplomacy (mutual understanding) or through conquest. It seems uchiha clan alone and madara in particular had contempt in the creation of the village.

Actually if anything it was the Uchiha that brought the other countries together, because they were the one conquering clans in their quest for power and fame. and The Uchiha and Hyuugas sharingan the same origin make the Uchiha responsible for bringing them into the leaf not the Senju who have no connection to the Hyuugas.

[Kakosan]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas

lol, Sasuke a betrayer? What manga have you been reading?


Actually if anything it was the Uchiha that brought the other countries together, because they were the one conquering clans in their quest for power and fame. and The Uchiha and Hyuugas sharingan the same origin make the Uchiha responsible for bringing them into the leaf not the Senju who have no connection to the Hyuugas.

Actually, I've been also reading Naruto and I agree that Sasuke is a betrayer... there was a long discussion about this topic a few months ago.

Wow!! I know you like Uchihas but... don't you think that you're jumping to conclusions too quickly? I mean, you practically state random thoughts as proven facts in the manga... do you know Kishi personally or what? There's absolutely no proof, whatsoever, indicating that Uchihas were responsible for bringing Hyuugas into Konoha. Moreover, I find perfectly plausible for the Senju to persuade Hyuugas after the village was created... especially since Uchihas were Senju´s dogs.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Good points all (and yet another comparison between Madara and Satan pops up ), but the inbold text is specifically how I viewed Madara's comment that he "challenged Konoha": by challenging the Hokage he was challenging Konoha.

Some reasons of my assumption:
- Madara says that he was betrayed, i think he hated not only the hokage but also the village and his former clan, so i did assume that's why he would attack everyone and not only one man
- the Uchiha bloodline is very good in a 1on1 fight, why did he use the largest scaled attack known which would atract the whole village, Itachi would say that his moves "stand out too much". Large scale jutsu is not what Uchiha are best at, so i do have a feeling that Madara using such a large scale jutsu was because of his rage, where he wanted to attack and destroy the whole village.
- I don't agree with saying that the fight was just like Naruto vs Sasuke fight because even if it was similar but it basically had a huge difference: Naruto did want to save Sasuke while Sasuke wanted to simply leave the village with no harm done. As opposed to this Madara already left the village and he was attacking the village trying to kill the hokage and all other people, Hashirama did defend the village and was trying to kill Madara.

We also have an example of a similar large scale attack where the village actually is just trouble for the "good guy": Gaara vs Deidara. We could say that the sand village ninja tried to help Gaara, but in the end they were totally useless, plus Deidara won by using the village to his advantage. I think this was not the case with Hashirama, however i could very well be wrong on this.

Considering the whole chapter i have to agree with you that this was a true 1on1 fight and that Hashirama and Madara with EMS were about equal in power. I think my assumption about Madara vs a-whole-village is mostly based on the huge sharingan hype that we experienced in the latest arcs, beginning with Sasuke killing Orochimaru.

[Last of the Uchihas]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Actually, I've been also reading Naruto and I agree that Sasuke is a betrayer... there was a long discussion about this topic a few months ago.

betrayer? with what we know? It was only a matter of time before Danzou had tohe balls to ordered the kill of Sasuke.

Wow!! I know you like Uchihas but... don't you think that you're jumping to conclusions too quickly? I mean, you practically state random thoughts as proven facts in the manga... do you know Kishi personally or what? There's absolutely no proof, whatsoever, indicating that Uchihas were responsible for bringing Hyuugas into Konoha. Moreover, I find perfectly plausible for the Senju to persuade Hyuugas after the village was created... especially since Uchihas were Senju´s dogs.

The Uchiha share an origin with the Hyuugas, so its very likely that they were the one that brought in the Hyuugas, not the Senjus. and by the way, Only Uchihas bad mouth other Uchihas. Senju dog was said by Madara because he was pissed at them.

[HiroInazuma]

Itachi may have fed Sasuke tales about Madara being an evil person who killed his brother to gain power to make Sasuke hate Madara, but in reality Madara if he is telling the truth is the victim:

-The people he tried so desperately to protect betrayed him and followed the person who had killed so many of their people

-Madara knew that sooner or later the Senju would go against Uchiha and wipe them out which they did if a Senju became leader of the village, Madara thought this out and opposed but the Uchiha betrayed him again

-Madara left ashamed by the village but came back out of rage to destroy the organization which will one day destroy the Uchiha but he was defeated and cut out of the History of the village

-Senju turned against Uchiha and gave them the job of being the head of police but the truth was that they were isolating the Uchiha

-A lot of hate built up in Konoha because of this and the 9 tails appeared from this build up, Danzou and the 3rd's advisors suspected the Uchiha and thought they would try to take over, the 3rd opposed but was overruled

-The Uchiha Clan noticed what was going on and planned a coup d'etat but were slaughtered by their own kin

-Madara watched as what he tried to stop became a reality