(L) Girls und Panzer

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Another is that she lacks the will to enforce discipline on her team mates.And before someone starts talking about how this is just a game let me just point out that you would never see that kind of half-assed running around with any high school football,baseball, or basketball team and they are all games.

Not trying to dismiss your point or anything, since I'm pretty agree with it, but I've seen not so few teams which has that kind of attitude even when they are participating in tournament (the kind that choose one representative for each province) since they treat it as "just a game to have fun". I'd say Miho's lack of discipline enforcing is quite understandable and to some extend, acceptable if it's not because of the school's situation.

[Panzerklein]

Quote my sentence but the name of other guy?

n battle, most general set up basic strategy and depend on situations, they change strategy and tactics.

Actually most of them changed depend situation, but the real-life units not like in game, the command may not reach the units (the radio is destroyed, the line is cut v.v...) or they can't move because enemy pin them down or simple, the enemy breakthrough too fast, many things out of commanders's exception. Thus look like they don't changed.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

Ammunition is live but still not as same as WW2's real ones . If not, they never allow JagdTiger because it's 128mm can go through even King Tiger from "front door" to "back door" . If it use real ammunition to shoot Type 89, it will shred Type 89 and our Studen Councill girls will be "rest in pieces" .

I don't think anyone is arguing that the ammunition that they use is the same as WWII ammunition, or as lethal. I'm not. But it's not harmless. I wouldn't want to get directly hit by any of it. How big a hole would some of that stuff make in my abdomen, I wonder?

Doing a quick Internet search, the term "live ammunition" seems to be used more oft than not where you would use the term "real ammunition." Indeed, the phrase "live ammunition" brings up news reports and such items about Marines on the first page of results. The phrase "real ammunition" brings up mostly stories and adverts for bullets that will kill zombies for its first page of results.

Originally Posted by Magewolf

I think there are three problems that have undermined Miho leading her team...

Thank you. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about her "leadership" abilities, but couldn't find the right words to blurt out. As you say, lacking command presence and an unwillingness to enforce discipline are her biggest problems. On reflection, perhaps my kindergarten analogy wasn't all that far afield. Unlike the sports you mention played in high school, where the emphasis is on winning as much as everything else, Miho seems like she would be perfectly satisfied with the "everyone's a winner" attitude you would find on a kindergarten playground (at least in my neck of the woods), so long as everyone's happy and having fun. The problem with that, of course, is that, even if it wasn't such an ordeal this year, the school administrators wouldn't be very happy if you lost all of your battles because you were just having fun. Although I agree with you that she might be a very good second in command, who would you recommend to take her place as commander?

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan

Spoiler for Yukari:

That's a fairly hilarious head replacement considering that the original is Shirley's imagine spot of Trude Barkhorn in a dress.

Speaking of command and Miho being the XO of the Black Forest team: Perhaps the incident and her abrupt departure caused her to lose some assertiveness. Though presumably BF was a lot more formal in their command hierarchy as it was, so people listened to her, and she to Maho.

[Panzerklein]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the ammunition that they use is the same as WWII ammunition, or as lethal. I'm not. But it's not harmless. I wouldn't want to get directly hit by any of it. How big a hole would some of that stuff make in my abdomen, I wonder?

You can kill a human by paintbal gun by shots to unarmored vital points in close range, and they're not real bullet. In military game, despite don't use live ammunition, they still avoid shoot the unarmored point.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Although I agree with you that she might be a very good second in command, who would you recommend to take her place as commander?

Right now there isn't anyone in Oarai who can take the role. There are more assertive people, but no one else could match her for strategy, and whatever folks may say about Miho's strategies, they do still show experience. Let someone who doesn't know what they're doing try to be in overall command and it would just fall apart. That's why Miho's got the job despite everything.

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

You can kill a human by paintbal gun by shots to unarmored vital points in close range, and they're not real bullet. In military game, despite don't use live ammunition, they still avoid shoot the unarmored point.

I'm not sure you realize how ridiculous your argument is sounding here. I'm also not sure why you're arguing it. These are obviously not paintballs they're shooting. We know and can blatantly see that these are still extremely deadly rounds. Due to added protections in the tank armor no one is likely to be killed unless they're hanging outside the tank while under fire, like Miho, but the rounds, while probably reduced in power, are still real enough.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

I think there are three problems that have undermined Miho leading her team.


One is that she lacks command presence.She lacks the force of personalty to control her team naturally. That is why Momo was able to take over at the start of their first match even though she is an idiot.


Another is that she lacks the will to enforce discipline on her team mates.And before someone starts talking about how this is just a game let me just point out that you would never see that kind of half-assed running around with any high school football,baseball, or basketball team and they are all games.


If you put her two first faults together you can see that they make it very hard for her to be any kind of effective leader.

Her last problem is the she is only a so-so strategist .All of her prematch plans that we have seen have been very basic and uninspired.


But she also has her strengths.She can lead from example and she is good at forming bonds with her teammates.And most importantly she is a great tactician.All of their wins have come from her ability to react to the fast changing tides of battle and chart out a way through them.

I think that she is more suited to being a second in command.She could be the mother figure for a more stern and imposing leader while keeping up team morale.And I think she would really shine at front line of battle carrying out her orders in her own way while having her commander in the back looking at the big picture.

I agree with most of your points, and not that I disagree with the rest, I just take them one step further:

-Miho is displaying traits of a young officer, and a good one at that. All the shortcomings, which you identified, I can already see the beginings of her overcoming them. Her epiphany of sensha-do being enjoyable is continuing to broaden, and as it does her confidence grows. Her chief motivation is for the success of her comrades, and of them as a group, not for her own reputation or her own advancement. This is a root tenet we look for in young leaders, and try our best to nurture.

She has displayed the technical and tactical proficiency she needs, and an ability to rapidly assess a situation and issue effective orders. What she must overcome is the idea that she is inadequate, a failure, and possibly a coward, all things she apparently was branded with before she transferred to Ooarai. When these things come from (as I think they did) her own Mother, as well as her classmates, and possibly her older sister, they can really take hold of a person, and cripple them.

I see her developing quite well in her new school, and I think able to develope more than she might have been able to at Black Forest Peak. I'd be perfectly fine with her as an officer in my unit.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I'm not sure you realize how ridiculous your argument is sounding here. I'm also not sure why you're arguing it. These are obviously not paintballs they're shooting. We know and can blatantly see that these are still extremely deadly rounds. Due to added protections in the tank armor no one is likely to be killed unless they're hanging outside the tank while under fire, like Miho, but the rounds, while probably reduced in power, are still real enough.

Not real enough?, even added more protection for tank armor, some tank like Type 89 can't bear the shot from 128mm even if they reduced in power but "real enough", it will still shred the Type 89 easily and killed entire crew. The ammunition were producted for it can't penetrate any tank with any type of shells, useless you aim and shoot the human just like shoot unarmored vital points of someone by paintball gun that why all paintball players wear armor from head to toe because the paint ball still deadly. No paintball players join the game without armor just like no girl will come out the tank while they are shooting.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Although I agree with you that she might be a very good second in command, who would you recommend to take her place as commander?

None. You could already see that no one in Ooarai has both experience and knowledge to lead the team. Heck, aside from the student council and the volley ball group (though not as extreme), none of the other girls has a sense of tension for losing.

[Top Sergeant]

Wow there's a lot of discussion about the ammo the tanks use. It apparently would be harmful to one of the girls if one actually struck her because-

-They refer to it as "armor piercing ammunition"
-The recoil depicted indicates a tremendous amount of muzzle velocity
-While the warheads aren't nearly as explosive as the original, from the amount of earth and rock they kick up they are likely as powerful as about 1/4 pound (4 ounces) of TNT. Won't hurt a tank, and if that 'carbon lining' is something like spall lining, then the crews inside should not be in any great danger.

So, even though the ammo is obviously toned down, and likely even down to 10% or less of the original's power, striking an unprotected human would be messy. Think of a baseball at about 350 mph

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

. Although I agree with you that she might be a very good second in command, who would you recommend to take her place as commander?

I was actually thinking of her sister when I wrote that.It seems like they would make a great team if their mother would just leave them alone.


Miho is like those kids who have their parents shove rackets in their hands when they are six and make them train hours a day so they could win at Wimbledon.The whole rescue thing just gave her the motivation to walk away.

I like Milho and it makes sense that she would be this way but she needs to over come it if she wants to truly help her team. She has come to love the game again but she is still not working at her full potential.

This is just my own opinion on games but if you are not playing to win them why are you playing at all?Now what I mean is that it is no fun to be walked all over and it is no fun to be able to win in your sleep.So if you like the game you need to plan on winning every game you play for your sake and your opponent's.That does not mean not to have fun with it or that winning is the most important thing.Just that you should try your best every game so that everyone on all sides can have fun.

[florallia]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

I think there are three problems that have undermined Miho leading her team.

　You got a point, Miho was not High-and Mighty, but whole Ooarai team is. They manage their part well, That made Ooarai team stronger.

For example, there's a true leadership in Anzu. She's a politician, who led them in total vision, weigh decision and final responsibility. Miho acts as acting General at Frontline. She made Battle-order, then lead actual combat and manage. But of course, she can't force discipline because her personality as you pointed out. Anzu is clever. She knows what needed. Ooarai had vital asset already.

Flag Sergeant.

Some says, "Generals gave order, Officers too, but who move military is Sergeant. Sergeant moves world". In Ooarai team, Anzu gave that position to Momo. Remember? Alway She shouts, made order, force discipline, but not allowed for make decision. I think Momo already understanding what she play for, under Anzu's management. Everybody hate her, but with love. That is what flag sergeant for.

I think Ooarai is well organized, that is what they made strong. Not by Miho's talent, but whole team. I couldn't accuse her. Everybody had weakness, but human can supports each other, it made us strong. This is what Girls & Panzer shows us. No killing, No harms, but showing legend of sports like "Mighty Ducks".

So, please stop talking about "killing","damaged","injure", or "penetration", and "leadership" and "commanding", everyone. Forget about it. I don't want to see everybody in arguement about wrong point of view.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

Not real enough?, even added more protection for tank armor, some tank like Type 89 can't bear the shot from 128mm even if they reduced in power but "real enough", it will still shred the Type 89 easily and killed entire crew. The ammunition were producted for it can't penetrate any tank with any type of shells, useless you aim and shoot the human just like shoot unarmored vital points of someone by paintball gun that why all paintball players wear armor from head to toe because the paint ball still deadly. No paintball players join the game without armor just like no girl will come out the tank while they are shooting.

HALT! Time out. You are becoming increasing less coherent. I cannot understand you. You now seem to be arguing against the exact position you were holding before. What exactly are you trying to say?

[Ithekro]

He is saying that just the size and velocity of the large shells from something like the IS-2 and the Tiger II should be powerful enough to punch though both sides of a Type 89 without stopping.

Basically called bullshit on the carbon layer from what I can tell.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

HALT! Time out. You are becoming increasing less coherent. I cannot understand you. You now seem to be arguing against the exact position you were holding before. What exactly are you trying to say?

I'm saying if real shells, something like 122mm from IS-2, 88mm from Tiger and King Tiger, Ferdinand, also 128mm from JagdTiger cut though a Type 89, M3 Lee, Panzer 38(t) include it's crew and fart the carbon-coating layer out of Earth surface like a hot knife cut a cheese. The Senshado's shells are reduced pretty much stopping power. As same as paintballs for paintball game, they're don't strong enough to go though the armor, but if you shoot non-protected vitol points with paintballs/ tank crew in Senshado with special shells deliberately, you will still kill people.

[Theo]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

I think there are three problems that have undermined Miho leading her team.


One is that she lacks command presence.She lacks the force of personalty to control her team naturally. That is why Momo was able to take over at the start of their first match even though she is an idiot.

Sounds like they need to fuse Momo's charisma with Miho's intellect. By our powers combined...

"I'm Tank Commander Miho Nishizumi, your senior instructor. From now on you will speak only when spoken to, and the first and last words out of your filthy, animated sewers will be "Sir". Do you maggots understand that?"

"Sir, yes sir!"

"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a Garupan. You will be a Minister of Tanoshii~ praying for 'Panzer Vor'. But until that day you are pukes. You are the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human fucking beings. You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of moeshit! There is no school bigotry here. I do not look down on Pravdas, Saunders, Glorianas, or Ooarais. Here you are all equally worthless. And my orders are to weed out all non-fun lovers who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Panzer corps. Do you maggots understand that?"

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

I'm saying if real shells, something like 122mm from IS-2, 88mm from Tiger and King Tiger, Ferdinand, also 128mm from JagdTiger cut though a Type 89, M3 Lee, Panzer 38(t) include it's crew and fart the carbon-coating layer out of Earth surface like a hot knife cut a cheese. The Senshado's shells are reduced pretty much stopping power. As same as paintballs for paintball game, they're don't strong enough to go though the armor, but if you shoot non-protected vitol points with paintballs/ tank crew in Senshado with special shells deliberately, you will still kill people.

Leaving the "if the shell could kill humans aside" Yes some of bigger shell sizes can easily penetrate WWII era armor which ranged from 60-120 mm. Modern tanks with higher quality steel, ceramics and composites have the "equivalent" of 600mm of armor. The rules indicate that the tanks materials must conform to the WWII standards. But about the carbon lining, can you tell me exactly what kind of carbon are they using, how thick and how much protection against penetration they add in this ficticious setting? You talk as if it's a given and you've witnessed that a 128mm shell will blow the WWII armor, blow the carbon protection into smitherins, go out the other side, take out the tank behind it and fly off into the horizon in the GuP world. So far we haven't seen penetration, just fire and carbon composites and fuel can burn easily. So if they tell you instead of carbon lining, the interior of the tanks is made of vibranium and adamantium, are you gonna say the 128mm from JagdTiger is gonna blow the adamantium into tiny pieces too?

In the end GuP is a work of fiction. If they tell you the shells are specially made and the tanks interior and it's occupands are protected with carbon, vibranium, adamantium, magic or the power of whatever god there is, that's where real life logic and science stops applying, and hope this discussion ends here because enough catgirls have died so far.

[fukarming]

Lots of discussions since yesterday:

I think the show did a good job portraying the characters. Sure I know nothing about the first year students, but I don't know about Saki's cannon folder characters either. Let's use a classic as an example: Touch. I know about the Uesugi brothers, I know about Koutarou (catcher), but I don't know anything about the rest of the meisei team. And Touch is a 26 Vol manga, 101 episode anime and is a character driver show. Girls und Panzer will be more similar to a sports show that has a big team, like soccer or baseball, in which one do not need character development on every teammates on the main team.

The main problem, is that not alot of people is talking about the characters, which I believe is what Midonin is actually complaining. Since everyone is so busy talking about tank spec (tank A has 88mm cannon, tank B has XYZ armor), which is perfectly valid (we are in an anime forum, as long as you are having fun and not abusing others, you are cool), but kinda alienate people who has no interest in tank spec. In Saki the post between the girls and Mahjong discussion is about 5:1. In here it is 10:1, maybe 20:1 in favor of tank specs. But that can be solved by having sub forums. Tank buff can talk about tank specs all day long, and Midonin and I can talk about characters.

Talking about characters, 50 pages ago I already said that Miho makes excellent executive officier but not a very good commanding officer due to her nature. She reminds me of Kouzuki Sinon from Starship Operators. btw, Starship Operators is a great show.

Can everyone stop talking about penetration and casualty? It is a fictional show. They are using magic bullets. Live with it. None of our girls are going to get blasted in pieces.

Though the whole casualty talk brought in an interesting thought: What is the EXPECTATION of a Senshado practitioner in terms of injury? As that will directly link to the whole Ideology of Shiho and Mishizumi school. It seems that Shiho and Mishizumi school expects one to die for Senshado (thus going out of the tank and save someone is "wrong") It is OK as long as everyone who practice Senshado agree to it. (Swordsman back in the day expects to live and die by the sword, thus Miyamoto Musashi is a swordsman, not a murderer. Before every duel, both sides understand it is a fight to the death). Do Senshado practitioner sign the accident waiver form before they enter the match?

[PzIVf3]

Spoiler for More OAV scene:

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Spoiler for More OAV scene:

...dem big round volleyballs....