[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't really want to find Ryukishi's heart because what I've seen of it so far suggests he's kind of an arrogant hypocritical asshole. At least Beatrice is pitiable.

That's very much how I feel, tho I don't dislike Ryuukishi's attitude I find it creepy if he's trying to represent himself a blonde caucasian witch in love with Battler.

Spoiler for haguruma:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Though your claim is that it is easier to construct a fictional author theory after EP1 than construct a reasonable theory after the gathering of the clues is over...which I (and I think others) just don't agree with. It's not that your theory has to be wrong...but I still don't see any profit for the actual whole of Umineko as a story.

Well to play Devil's advocate at least on that, from my pov it's you guys who are discarding entirely the question arcs in favor of the chiru arcs. Since in arc 5 it was stated in red that all the clues exists within arc 1-4, by Virgilia too and not some totally troll character, I believe it's a lot more reliable then most other things in the serie. I think we've been explained pretty clearly how new truths rewrite previous truths, and Ryuukishi explained himself how an author could do that using a "third arc" in the serie of Watanagashi and Maekashi as example.

Basically if you go back, mostly all information necessary to construct a reasonable theory is present after EP4. You have no verification of what is wrong and what is not...but that is basically what it is about. Truth becomes more and more subjective the more it is shared, that is basically what we can get from Umineko. The fact that there is nothing like an absolute truth...
But the basic structure that is also verified in Chiru can be constructed with most of what we get in EP1-4.

Guess I'm finding why what I'm saying is so disturbing to everyone.
Ryuukishi said it clearly, Umineko is a story about mysteries (and not strickly speaking a mystery per say). I guess this is it tho? Basically what I'm saying is that when you write a story you might have a goal, a presense, or a message to pass on. Not necessarily, but concerning the "author of the arcs" we've been told that pretty clearly I believe. Uminko is a lot more about an author and later more authors trying to find ways to pass on these messages and feelings through a story. Obviously the shape these messages can take within the given story can be altered as the story goes on. However it if contradicted itself we'd basically give up.

As thus I believe the vast majority of the information of chiru can be taken as an example of a "truth within the arcs" that would pass on these messages and intentions rather then anything absolutely and always factual about Umineko. Ryuukishi himself said in an interview that with Chiru he was "trimming the possibilities" which definitively doesn't sound like there is one clear truth to me.

Even "The culprit is Yasu" can be infered from EP3 on, because after Battler already points out that 0715 is maybe hinting towards July 15th, and thus his birthday, you can get to 1129 being November 29th, the releae date of ポートピア連続殺人事件...which is basically synonymous with 「犯人はヤス」. And because you can say that Kanon is probably the culprit, both Beatrice and Shannon had a promise with Battler and Shannon and Kanon are possibly the same person...you can easily arrive at the basic structure of the story.

"Fair play" is terribly easy to stretch as a term, I think.
Some people seem to think that he basically has to verify our ideas while we are making our theories...but where is the challenge in that? If he had told us from the beginning that he would take us by the hand and guide us to the goal once a certain date had passed and then would have delivered such a result...yes, that would have been unfair, because we would have participated under false conditions.
The story at least appears to be fair in so far, that many people arrived at the theories that were later approved within the story...so it can't be unfair only because some people didn't.

Fair play does not imply that everybody will reach the goal, just that everybody is given a chance to reach it...though of course everybody enters the game under different conditions based on knowledge, abilities, time, etc.
A person who is a nerd for Japanese mystery fiction, who immediatly connects 1129 to 犯人はヤス is in a better position than somebody who never read any mysteries in his life...but that does not make the story unfair.

As I said, I'm not dismissing your theory as inherently wrong, I just think it's fueld by the wrong ideas about the story as it is.

Fair play does however imply that we had a fricking chance to reason things out before arc 8 came out, or at least arc 7, and in my pov this is where most of your theories entirely fails. Like saying we waste our time for a year and a half before it came out.

Spoiler for Wanderer:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

@UsagiTenpura-

A question for the sake of understanding your theory better: What role does the meta-world play?

Guess it has a few uses, generally speaking any "additional level" that isn't supposed to be a reality that is directly linked to Rokkenjima I believe exists to make us think about how something like that is going on behind the scenes even when we don't see it. However since the arcs are a "finished product" I believe the meta world scenes are not "live" and generally represents what went on in the author or sometimes the detective-to-be-next-author's mind.

Basically as "author" wrote arc 2, she imagined how "reader" would react to it, what theories they'd be most likely to make on the spot and how to ensnare them into thinking a specific way. What kind of things would the reader object about, what kind of things she'd normally have to clear in an interview to reassure readers. These are things an at least semi decent writer should be thinking about when trying to be understood by their target public, this is what's being represented, mostly.

Later arcs gradually varies by finding more uses to the meta world, but generally speaking it exists to hints us as a level that exists behind the scenes. I believe we were then introduced Featherine mostly to repeat that experience since we stopped at the meta world's existence rather then getting the idea behind it.

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah, I mean you're creating one of two scenarios here:

• You actually believe this stuff you're saying in interviews, in which case you're a big-headed jerk who is full of himself.
• You're merely pretending to be a big-headed jerk who is full of himself as part of the "experience," in which case you're a pretentious tool.

Note that I'm basing my impressions on outside sources like interviews more than I am his attitude derived from his actual works. I accept that a narrator may sound condescending or something without the author intending them to. There needs to be a firm line between "this is me the author speaking in the voice of the 'character' of my narrator" and "this is just me, the author, chatting with you." If you do all your interviews in character, it stops becoming a character.

Unless it's obvious you're acting in-character, like when Daniel Handler poses as Lemony Snicket. If he's acting like Snicket, you know he's in-character. If he's just hanging out and you interview him as Daniel Handler, he'd be a dick to keep acting like Snicket.

I might heavily be wrong in that but I think Ryuukishi was too much a niche writer to ever be able to properly deal with a large audience.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

I would imagine that's possibly because he wasn't "The Higurashi Guy" at the time he was writing Higurashi. I'm not saying I know it's gotten to his head, but I think it might've gotten to mine if I were, well, The Higurashi Guy.

I guess the real test will be whether he continues to be arrogant in future works (you'd expect him to be more arrogant since he's now The Higurashi and Umineko Guy).

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or Higurashi made him super fucking famous and after basking in that glow he became a stuckup ass. If the arrogant thing was supposed to be part of the experience then that just confirms my view that Death of the Author needs to be applied to Umineko because he's just detracting from his own novel.

Well, the introduction sees the author take on the role of a witch and outright tell the reader that they're going to be screwed with in an arrogant manner. It's a pretty consistent gimmick of the series (especially after Beatrice is introduced, of course). I mean, half of Beatrice's apparent strength (and since she's trying to achieve a submission, apparent strength is everything) comes from her being completely confident and pretending she has some godly trick up her sleeve all the time, so I feel Ryukishi may have wanted to do this (as part of his "put the reader through some of the same things as the characters" gimmick).

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

I got another question. At the moment probably no one knows what really happed on Rokkenjima except Ryukishi(and Battler lol). But does that answer actually exist?

Well Ryûkishi said that he wrote the whole story once and then wrote the mystification around it. So basically I think a certain amount of truth must exist for him to stay coherent during all those years. Of course Umineko has some bumps here and there...but it'd show much more if he had just written in any direction.

If that means that he actually wrote THE truth or if he just invented several "what if scenarios" that are all equally possible...I think we'll never know unless somebody forces him to say so.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Or Higurashi made him super fucking famous and after basking in that glow he became a stuckup ass. If the arrogant thing was supposed to be part of the experience then that just confirms my view that Death of the Author needs to be applied to Umineko because he's just detracting from his own novel.

I wouldn't say so, he basically was "our Beatrice" and I think he played that role quite well. He even admitted in some interviews that he wouldn't be surprised if people saw him as a stuck up kinda guy, especially after how he behaved in most of the things he released on Umineko. I think the battle spirit got to him as well.
And admit it everyone, who wouldn't like playing a role like Beato (EP1-4 that is) once in your life?!
I found it entertaining, because I'd rather have an author who appears to be full of himself than somebody who obviously wavers at everything the readers say. In the end Umineko-Ryûkishi was a mixture of both...but at least it didn't show that much during Umineko's run. Basically my position is: "Why the heck do I need to like an author to enjoy his work?"

And he even said that he wanted to return back to being modest for his next releases...which I don't know why we shouldn't believe that.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Fair play does however imply that we had a fricking chance to reason things out before arc 8 came out, or at least arc 7, and in my pov this is where most of your theories entirely fails. Like saying we waste our time for a year and a half before it came out.

But I'd really like to ask you, what points of the mystery exactly were impossible to reason towards?!
I'm not asking about the chances being slimmer or broader than your average mystery novel, I'm talking about things that were actually impossible to infer, reason or guess before EP7 and 8 came out?

[Wanderer]

I think he comes off arrogantly because he's trying really really hard to get us to "get" his message on our own. In fact, I think he's desperately trying to get people to appreciate his work.

He's not arrogant. He's insecure.

[UsagiTenpura]

Guess to give another example of my theories, it's like arc 8's Bernkastel arc.

There is no way of finding an absolute answer as the variety of theories and ways to twist Bern's game Ive seen here showns.
So you cannot find an objective truth about it. Anyway even if you did, it probably wouldn't be based on the "prime truth" about the characters involved within Bern's theorical scenario.
However the one thing you can very clearly get is Bern's intents in making this game, and what message she wanted to send to Ange (and us) through it. That you can find out with absolute certainty.
Exploring a Rokkenjima prime to me is akin to exploring a "Bern's scenario's Prime" while my theory is the same as trying to get what prompted Bern to show us such a game. Only Bern is easy to understand.
At least to me, what prompted Bern to make that scenario is a lot more the "truth" of it, then the answer she wanted us to reach or any other theorical answer any fans could reach out of it.

Again, I believe the whole event existed to make us think about exactly that.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Basically my position is: "Why the heck do I need to like an author to enjoy his work?"

One doesn't. However, the reason one dislikes an author or creator can have a big impact on what one takes away from the work.

For example, one could be unfriendly in disposition to Roman Polanski over his sexual dalliances and not like him as a person, yet still like the works he's directed because his sins have no bearing on his artistry.

Conversely, one could personally dislike Upton Sinclair for being a heavy-handed politically-minded socialist, and therefore dislike The Jungle because it employs its writing techniques to bludgeon the reader over the head with the author's political agenda. If I wasn't aware that Sinclair was actually only writing the book to convince me of a political point, I might enjoy it more as a stark portrayal of the early 19th century industrial machine. And many people did! Indeed, that's pretty much what his work is more famous for now.

If one believes Ryukishi is arrogant, condescending, and hypocritical, then when he says that his work has a deep and important message one might come to suppose that in fact his work is (1) not as important as the author thinks it is, (2) not as deep as the author thinks it is, and (3) not even the actual message the author thinks he's conveying.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

So you cannot find an objective truth about it. Anyway even if you did, it probably wouldn't be based on the "prime truth" about the characters involved within Bern's theorical scenario.
[...]
Again, I believe the whole event existed to make us think about exactly that.

And again I'd like to point out that I don't think that there is an inherent connection between "the truth of Beatrice's game" and "the truth of Rokkenjima".
While the truth behind Beatrice can help us reason towards the truth of Ange's reality. And when we consider that Umineko has the perspective that there is nothing like "absolute, objective, everlasting truth".

Yes, we are not able to flawlessly solve what happened on "Rokkenjima Prime" (though I'm starting to dislike that name because it somehow ignores the fact that the first two stories preceded said "first event") or rather "The Rokkenjima of Anges reality", but we are able to reason towards the truth of the fictions and from there we can construct our own theory of what happened on the island.
That is also an integral part of Umineko.

I'd still like to know if the only thing you regard as unsolvable is "the real Rokkenjima" or anything else...

Originally Posted by Renall

One doesn't. However, the reason one dislikes an author or creator can have a big impact on what one takes away from the work.

While I basically agree with you on the impact an authors position and how he positions his own work can have a huge impact on how you view it, I don't think that this impact is as huge with Umineko. Ryûkishi never implied that he wanted to convey moral or legal values or wanted to comment on them with Umineko. The only thing he commented on is his perception of reality, which is something of rather low social impact. To liken Ryûkishis work with something that takes a political seems rather farfetched.

He never implied that Umineko had a deep or important message that had to be accepted by its readers. And while of course he takes a certain standpoint concering his perception of reality, he doesn't really comment on culpability...

[AuraTwilight]

Well, the introduction sees the author take on the role of a witch and outright tell the reader that they're going to be screwed with in an arrogant manner. It's a pretty consistent gimmick of the series (especially after Beatrice is introduced, of course). I mean, half of Beatrice's apparent strength (and since she's trying to achieve a submission, apparent strength is everything) comes from her being completely confident and pretending she has some godly trick up her sleeve all the time, so I feel Ryukishi may have wanted to do this (as part of his "put the reader through some of the same things as the characters" gimmick).

If that were the case, he should've cut the shit when Beatrice was revealed to be a frail, insecure little girl begging for love and understanding.

I found it entertaining, because I'd rather have an author who appears to be full of himself than somebody who obviously wavers at everything the readers say. In the end Umineko-Ryûkishi was a mixture of both...but at least it didn't show that much during Umineko's run. Basically my position is: "Why the heck do I need to like an author to enjoy his work?"

That last sentence is basically how I feel. Which is why I think it's appropriate to stop taking Ryukishi's opinions on his own work as having any canonical basis because he's kind of a jackass.

Ryûkishi never implied that he wanted to convey moral or legal values or wanted to comment on them with Umineko. The only thing he commented on is his perception of reality, which is something of rather low social impact. To liken Ryûkishis work with something that takes a political seems rather farfetched.

Does it really matter? He was trying to impress his sense of romance, morality, and worldview on the reader and treated those who disagreed as either heartless or too stupid to get it. REGARDLESS of what he was trying to convey, he's an asshole for replying that way.

He never implied that Umineko had a deep or important message that had to be accepted by its readers

Demonstrably wrong.

[ErenselTheJester]

Umm... okay, so... what did we figure out? Because I'm pretty sure that Ryukishi being arrogant, insecure, or whatever doesn't get us anywhere.

On another note, if Bernkastel is supposed to represent us in some way then what does Lambda represent? I always assumed that Lambda was supposed to be Ryukishi because its his job to act as a "buddy" throughout the story.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Umm... okay, so... what did we figure out? Because I'm pretty sure that Ryukishi being arrogant, insecure, or whatever doesn't get us anywhere.

On another note, if Bernkastel is supposed to represent us in some way then what does Lambda represent? I always assumed that Lambda was supposed to be Ryukishi because its his job to act as a "buddy" throughout the story.

I prefer to see Lambda and Bern as a representation of what Beato and Battler are fighting about. Lambda is in charge of the fantasy theories and Bern is governing the rational theories. This is also kinda mirrored by their position in the plot.
Lambda gave Beato her powers, she made her a witch. At the end of EP3 she even threatens her that she would take away all her powers if Beato wasn't ready to fight a real battle and in EP4 she wanted Ange to join her as well as it would have meant that she could be with the illusion of her brother forever.
Bern became the companion for Battler as long as he pursued the goal of crushing the fantasy side...she even said again and again that she would stop doing that if the person she joined forces with didn't give their everything.

[cronnoponno]

I figured Lambdadelta was symbolic for the certain will to find out the truth, even though Beato gave up in EP 5, certain willpower still dragged Battler along because giving up was not an option, or something to that extent, idk enough about the author theory to guess more on that.

[Renall]

That seems somewhat at odds with the claim that it's not possible to do that.

But then again, I suppose that's why Bern's there. And a certain will to do something doesn't actually make it happen...

[AuraTwilight]

Lambdadelta represents predetermination, and Bernkastel represents probability.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambdadelta represents predetermination, and Bernkastel represents probability.

I'm talking about when they represent actual people (because the Meta- World is supposed to be some kind of symbol for the real world), who would Lambda represent?

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

I'm talking about when they represent actual people (because the Meta- World is supposed to be some kind of symbol for the real world), who would Lambda represent?

I still say if you had to ascribe Lambda to a vessel o sorts (which isn't really necessary, as she and Bern are even more abstract sorts of beings than the rest of the Meta cast), that if Bern = the readership, particularly internet trolls, then Lambda = the R-Prime editor willing to publish Tohya's work.

They offer him the chance to reach the readership ("giving Beatrice her status as a witch")
They SHOULD be both knowledgeable about the mystery genre, and at least enough in the know regarding Tohya's intended solutions to decide it's worth the investment ("Lambda can see the underside of Beato's game, and knows it's workings")

Tis a thought, anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

I'm talking about when they represent actual people (because the Meta- World is supposed to be some kind of symbol for the real world), who would Lambda represent?

Ha, and what is there to suggest they represent actual people? We already have several Meta-World characters that don't represent any real people, why would these two be different?

[Reikokuna]

Possibly both of them represents the Good and the Bad of the game or literally shows the inner conflict of yasu since we know she have issues with her own decisions. I have the feeling that it's no a big deal after all.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

But then again, I suppose that's why Bern's there. And a certain will to do something doesn't actually make it happen...

Yeah, because sometimes Featherine just says "No."

I know that these ideas aren't exactly all that different from what many have said already, but I'll weigh in anyway:

Bern and Lambda do not represent anything concrete. They are metaphorical laws of nature; Bern is probability and Lambda is personal determination. It's how the two interact with each other that produces the outcome of things. Of course it's implied that there are other "witches" (metaphorical laws) of Bern and Lambda's level. Meanwhile, Featherine could be thought of as fate itself. Their scope of existence is not in any way limited to the events of Umineko; it just happens to be the context we see them in. And any of them could end up playing the good guy or bad guy depending on the circumstances.

I just finished reading episode 8 (it was very hard work at my level of Japanese). Here are some thoughts:

Spoiler:

It's strange how we get so many incompatible versions of Ange throughout the various episodes. Annoying too, because it makes even the stuff we see in 1998 unverifiable.

Meta-Ange clearly read The Book of One Truth, but did the (a?) real Ange ever read Eva's diary?

The Book of One Truth pretty clearly told a story of everyone finding the gold, which was handed over by Shannon, then returning to the mansion and having a bloodbath. RK07 didn't spell a specific answer out for us, but it seems that the most "canon" culprits are Kyrie/Rudolf.

Interesting note, in both Tooya's and Ange's "memories" of Rokkenjima both Shannon and Kanon appear. Did they actually see each of them? Or have their ideas of Rokkenjima been influenced by the writings?

Oct. 6 Battler didn't seem too distressed about his family being killed or anything. Strange, that was.

Gah... I feel more confused after reading the end of episode 8 than I was before. I can understand not telling us who the culprit is outright, but there were a lot of other loose ends which got no closure at all.

[AuraTwilight]

Meanwhile, Featherine could be thought of as fate itself.

I'd say that Featherine is the embodiment of Narrative Causality. The law of storyline physics that dictate that shit goes the way it does to entertain the audience, causal justification coming second.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambdadelta represents predetermination, and Bernkastel represents probability.

In way they could also be a metaphor for murder too. Lambda being to have the determination to do it and to have it planned out and premeditated. And Bern being the possibility that things could go horribly wrong, and the feeling that if you mess up the world will laugh at you.

Just something I thought of randomly.