2011-12-21, 17:58 | Link #26541 | ||||
The True Culprit
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2011-12-21, 18:59 | Link #26542 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Yeah I know you're saying that. What I want to know is whether you think the scene where Eva shot Battler was accurately depicted or not. Did her admission to being the culprit actually happen or was that Battler's viewpoint being unreliable? Quote:
In any case, Erika never had Detective Authority in EP6 anyway. |
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2011-12-21, 19:06 | Link #26543 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Heh, depending on how exactly said rules of the game works, I wouldn't be surprised if Eva didn't shoot Battler...
Meta-battle where Battler failled to expose the truth, then suddenly goes and declare "Eva you are the culprit" and he witness in his face Eva Beatrice becoming Eva. It could be very well that because he believed/accepted that being to be "Eva", it simply appeared to him that way. It's not like the narration itself ever mentioned that it was Eva who shot him. Now I'm not saying this is how it works necessarily, but it makes more sense to me then "splitting hair" and trying to find "special rules" to explain every single variations from the norms (such as getting into a bothersome explanation as to why Eva shot Battler which we currently have to pull out of nowhere). Generally speaking, I have to say that, whoever is trying to see Umineko as 100% a "Mystery" ends up having to make too many exceptions. If this was science, that would sure make the side promoting "mystery" fail and sound like creationists ^^... There are just too many weird things, like a time bubble thing around the chapel in arc 7, that Mystery doesn't even begin to explain. Also it sounds to me like trying to explain everything using a mystery view ends up with way too many characters being liars, and/or totally out of touch with reality, and finally comes the GTA gold motive to slaughter everyone. I think "considering Umineko a mystery 100%" and "looking down on a large part/all of the family" goes together hand in hand, really. |
2011-12-21, 19:24 | Link #26544 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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From what I understand of the game, it uses the definition of "detective" in the general sense as anyone who acts as the point of view for the audience and/or does the detecting (detecting being they observe crime scenes and provide conclusions for the reader). In that sense, he was the detective for the games. In terms of Detective's Authority, I believe it is supposed to be a rule that defines the role of the detective in its purest form which includes the rights held by a detective. With that, Battler and Erika represent to different interpretations of the Detective: A "Hard- Boiled Noir" Detective and a "Traditional" Detective. For those of you who don't know, Hard- Boiled Noir mysteries are mysteries that don't have a particular "detective" rather than a person who acts a the readers point of view in a recalling of the events of the crime. Check Wikipedia. |
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2011-12-21, 19:30 | Link #26545 | ||||
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2011-12-21, 21:01 | Link #26546 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's almost as if the Player's mind writes the ending. Happened in EP2, EP3, and kind of in EP5 and EP8 too (when we the reader got to choose Ange's disposition ourselves). EP1 and EP4 are compatible with the idea, too. EP6 is N/A and I dunno how to approach EP7 on the issue, or if it even should be. Quote:
The thing is that the scene in question appears on the Gameboard, or at least seems to. Now, since the Meta-World is so fluid you could say the scene really didn't play out on the Gameboard but separately in the Meta-World, but you still have to wonder why it took on a Gameboard setting. Here are the Gameboard interpretations I can think of (as always, feel free to add/amend):
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Like what Ernestel is saying, I don't think being "The Detective" automatically means that you have Detective Authority. D.A. was something introduced in EP5 and not made clearly relevant to apply to Battler throughout the earlier episodes. |
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2011-12-21, 21:13 | Link #26547 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 32
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didn't Erika have to claim the Detective's Authority in order to use it, like it wasn't some passive effect but rather some privilege to be activated?
Especially since there was that bit in Ep 6. where she has to make the detective's proclamation (I'm the detective) before she could use the detective's authority?
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2011-12-21, 21:18 | Link #26548 | ||||||
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I'M of the mind that, while the fantasy scenes aren't "real" (OR necessarily "Meta"), they are effectively immutable; Battler only controls "Battler", and any changes in the Gameboard are either done by Beatrice changing her mind about stuff, or the effects "Battler" legitimately has as a character. Both of which seem to be VERY little. I've yet to see a single reason to believe that Battler's believe in the Eva culprit theory "caused it to happen" or anything similar, seeing as how Battler only buys into it because Beatrice presented it to him first. Quote:
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Battler doesn't do all the kickass ultra tricks Erika does because he simply never was informed he could (which might have to do with Beatrice's personal interpretations of fairness, which Bern and Lambda step over.)
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2011-12-21, 21:41 | Link #26550 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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This sure comes to mind...
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Also, I thought the Erika thing made it sorta clear that even if the piece's view is reliable, the meta-interpretation of it can be falsified. Hell if you want to solve it as simple as that, just claim that whenever Battler sees something he shouldn't see, it wasn't from his POV that the scene was seen. There's no rule that says that someone can't be seeing a fantasy Battler, that all while meta-Battler thinks it's his piece still. I'd rather accept that "reader technique" was used as hinted by Bern in arc 8 which imo implies exactly things like a reader's interpretation. |
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2011-12-21, 21:41 | Link #26551 | ||
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2011-12-21, 21:44 | Link #26552 |
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That's what I began to think as well. If what Bern said is true, then there is no definite answer but, when given clues such as the Red Truth, you can come to a supposed answer. Then it basically goes back to the point where we have to use the clues given to us to find answers.
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2011-12-21, 21:58 | Link #26553 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well I really think Ryuukishi made his game so it's impossible to have a single truth crushing all other truths. It's sorta what Dlanor and Battler were talking about in arc 5 imo. Then he mentioned in interviews that he weaved multiple tales for his stories.
Considering how Battler said he would enjoy Erika's twisted logic, I take it that's pretty much what Ryuukishi enjoyed rather then a story where he can come out and prove either everyone or nearly everyone wrong. It's like the riddle in arc 6, even if there's an answer written on the back of the card it's possible to reach other answers, and even possibly better answers. |
2011-12-21, 22:30 | Link #26554 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Anyhow, I think this whole deal is the point of truth and magic in Umineko. Truth is basically a magic killer. So, if you want to protect the magic, then you must seal the truth. You have many references to this. Like say, Ronove's "love is an illusion" or Erika killing the magic of her love by chasing the truth. Maria and Kinzo are the biggest examples of truth and magic.
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2011-12-22, 00:06 | Link #26556 | ||||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Basically, if we condense her whole statement we can come up with: Throughout the first 4 games Battler had a reliable viewpoint. which is pretty hard to justify with the end of Turn. Maybe it's that the "game" itself ends as soon as the Player, or perhaps the Player's piece, comes to a conclusion; in which case it doesn't matter if it's 24:00 or not. What we get then is not part of the game proper (although it may use the game board), but an ending the Player imagines/interprets/creates/writes. This is also what Erika did in EP5 and is why that game ended so early. Quote:
Also, it makes the lolamnesia a lot more believable if he learned that he killed his whole family out of a misunderstanding. That'd fuck me up for sure. Anyway, just a pet theory. Hard to explain how it could happen. |
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2011-12-22, 00:16 | Link #26557 | ||||||||
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2011-12-22, 01:12 | Link #26558 | ||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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[Murder game being just too real=> Paranoia=> Real killings] just makes so much sense to me. |
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2011-12-22, 01:37 | Link #26559 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Not that I like the idea. |
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2011-12-22, 02:30 | Link #26560 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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If no one was guilty, then there wasn't really anything to hide. He could have disclosed the truths without having to add rubbish, because there would have been no actual reason to keep any cat box. If he really wanted to give them a happy ending, he could have said they all went to heaven and that's it. However, the cat box clearly existed to conceal several things. As I've said, during the 1st 4 episodes, we saw Battler resolute to find the culprit, bring it to justice and save his family. However, in the same fashion, he was reluctant to doubt any of his relatives. So, if in addition to a culprit (assuming whatever happened in R. Prime was planned) there were other killers - basically, anything similar to what we saw on EP7's Tea Party or even on Bern's game in EP8, then Battler had rather good reasons to keep the truth concealed. If he could keep the sins concealed, he could protect the illusion everyone was a good happy person doing things happy families do whenever they go to grandpa's.
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