(L+CR) selector infected WIXOSS

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Because she didn't have any strategy. She was a super noob.

Please see 0:48 of Episode 3. She does have strategies.

The series is just starting, so of course nothing is set in stone., but for now I don't see anything suggesting the LRIGs can even be activated outside the context of the game.

That has nothing to do with what a LRIG can do inside of a game.

Madoka fans, me included, project our moral values onto the series in many different ways, and that's just fine. But our opinions and what the author intended for are separate things.

Sure, but authorial intent is not always clear. Even interviews often don't paint the full or complete picture. So if you think that something has been "confirmed" by the author in an author interview, then please provide an author quote to that effect.

You can certainly try to frame him into your moral paradigm if you want. But it's a waste of time because he just doesn't fit in it.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica spoilers:

I disagree. I don't think it's a waste of time and I don't think he's somehow beyond morality. The Incubators are not gods.

I disagree with you on Kyubey and I largely disagree with you on why Homura loves Madoka. I very much think that Madoka's moral character is a big part of the reason why Homura loves her. Yes, it's also personal, because that moral character was displayed in ways that helped Homura directly. So again, the two go hand-in-hand in this case, in my view.

The way she talks is kind of annoying but I don't think that's trash-talking.

She's trying to unnerve and emotionally upset her opponents. A lot of it involves direct and/or thinly veiled insults. This is trash-talking, and she does it throughout almost the entire battle.

Originally Posted by Shyni

Since we're suddenly bringing up PMMM here:

Haven't seen the movies, but I don't recall Homura caring that much about morality. Sure, she can get upset when somebody hurts someone she cares about, but that's because somebody she cares about is getting hurt.

Spoiler for MadoMagi things:

Even if she did care about Madoka because of her innocence or whatever, it's far more personal than moral. I don't remember her getting worked up about letting innocent bystanders getting killed or anything else for reasons of "right and wrong". Not to the extent Sayaka did.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica Rebellion spoilers:

Homura has frequently demonstrated moral considerations in her actions. The Rebellion movie has some cases of this. One is seen in the end of her battle with Mami, where we see Homura adjust her gun on a seemingly time-frozen Mami in order to do less harm with her gun shot.

There's also the fact that Homura chooses to let Sayaka live at the end of Rebellion movie when it would arguably be more pragmatic of Homura to have killed Sayaka (which Homura at that point could have almost certainly done easily).

Also, are we seriously debating the "morality" of somebody telling her opponents she knows what they want? Really? It was unpleasant, sure, but she wasn't trying to hurt anyone,

She may not have intended lasting harm, but she clearly intended emotional harm during the battles themselves.

Anyway, let me just link to what Haak wrote here. I think he's very right in what he wrote there.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Please see 0:48 of Episode 3. She does have strategies.

Her match against Akira was her first one. It's obvious she would be pretty unnerved. For her second one, she already had an idea of what to expect and was obviously better prepared.

That has nothing to do with what a LRIG can do inside of a game.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. You asked how do I know the LRIGs can't use their powers outside the game. I answered that question.

Sure, but authorial intent is not always clear.

I agree.

So if you think that something has been "confirmed" by the author in an author interview, then please provide an author quote to that effect.

I'm not going to spoon-feed you. You can google that stuff on your own.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica spoilers:

I don't think it's a waste of time and I don't think he's somehow beyond morality. The Incubators are not gods.

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

The basis of morality is empathy. We develop a sense of what's right and wrong by putting ourselves in other people's shoes (both consciously and unconsciously). You can't pass moral judgment on an entity that doesn't feel emotions because such a being is simply incapable to understand our moral values. It'd be like blaming a blind for being unable to see. QB's moral-blindness is his nature, and you can't blame him for it because being like this wasn't his choice.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica spoilers:

I disagree with you on Kyubey and I largely disagree with you on why Homura loves Madoka. I very much think that Madoka's moral character is a big part of the reason why Homura loves her. Yes, it's also personal, because that moral character was displayed in ways that helped Homura directly. So again, the two go hand-in-hand in this case, in my view.

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Madoka's morality informs her own actions, not Homura's. Homura likes Madoka because Madoka was the first one to reach out to her. If she didn't, Homura wouldn't care about her nearly as much as she does, no matter how innocent and pure and moral Madoka is.

She's trying to unnerve and emotionally upset her opponents.

Yes.

A lot of it involves direct and/or thinly veiled insults.

She didn't do that.

This is trash-talking, and she does it throughout almost the entire battle.

I disagree.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica Rebellion spoilers:

Homura has frequently demonstrated moral considerations in her actions. The Rebellion movie has some cases of this. One is seen in the end of her battle with Mami, where we see Homura adjust her gun on a seemingly time-frozen Mami in order to do less harm with her gun shot.

There's also the fact that Homura chooses to let Sayaka live at the end of Rebellion movie when it would arguably be more pragmatic of Homura to have killed Sayaka (which Homura at that point could have almost certainly done easily).

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica Rebellion:

Of course.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's incorrect.

"This battle's horrible..." - Ruko, Episode 2, commenting on the Akira/Hitoe battle.

"The battle was horrible... and yet everything i wanted was to be in Hitoe's place" would be more correct.

Ruko doesn't think /Akira/ was horrible or immoral, just that the battle was pretty horrible.

As for Hitoe herself - The girl was reduced to tears. So to say she had "no problem whatsoever for it" seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Except she later thinks it was her own problem because /she began the battle before she was experienced enough/

Which, huh, was, once again, a green thing.

Akira hounded Yuzuki over e-mail. This is a simple fact.

And Yuzuki went to Akira's school trying to coerce her into a game like she did with Ruko. Your point?

I disagree. I don't see anything particularly ugly about Ruko's personality.

Ruko is totally dissociative of any sense of morality, all she can think of is "i want to battle". She lies to herself about it, but she truly is like Tama where she just seeks the thrill.

Ruko and Hitoe didn't seem "pretty nasty" to me. And aside from what she tried to pull on Ruko in Episode 1, Yuzuki hasn't seemed "pretty nasty" to me either. Akira, OTOH, has seemed consistently nasty to me.

Yuzuki has, since then, constantly ignored people trying to help her, constantly be agressive whenever someone doens't share her limited viewpoints, etc.

Did Ruko reduce anybody else to tears? Did Yuzuki? Did Hitoe? So I don't see any evidence that Ruki, Yuzuki, and/or Hitoe caused as much harm as Akira did. Maybe one or more of them will at some point, but they haven't yet.

Yuzuki has made Ruko/Her brother look for her at night, which is /damn more traumatizing than anything that Akira did/, and that was all because Yuzuki is too egocentric to realize that people already love her.

[silvercover]

in general really, every character is quite problematic and are not quite right.

^just for the record, the love yuzuki wants is far different from what the people(in story, not referring to us viewers) are thinking.

also, yuzuki didnt do things to intentionally trouble them, whereas akira's actions are clearly on purpose.

[felix]

Why do I get this nagging feeling each episode white's "dream" is death of everything. Then again the Iona deck appears to be a black deck so I guess that's out of the table now.

Actually is the main gurl's deck white or colorless? Since according them' damn' rules there is a colorless version; unless that simply refers to usage (ie. may place any color here) and not actual deck that's colorless.

.

Is this the same game?

Didn't this come out at the same time as the anime?

[maplehurry]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The basis of morality is empathy. We develop a sense of what's right and wrong by putting ourselves in other people's shoes (both consciously and unconsciously). You can't pass moral judgment on an entity that doesn't feel emotions because such a being is simply incapable to understand our moral values. It'd be like blaming a blind for being unable to see. QB's moral-blindness is his nature, and you can't blame him for it because being like this wasn't his choice.

Strictly speaking, QB's not morally blind per se. He just goes with a different "moral system" than most people's...

[Kazu-kun]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Strictly speaking, QB's not morally blind per se. He just goes with a different "moral system" than most people's...

He has his own value system, but it's not a moral system.

[maplehurry]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

He has his own value system, but it's not a moral system.

It's not a moral system by "human definition". The QB race can have their own's.

[Kazu-kun]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by maplehurry

It's not a moral system by "human definition". The QB race can have their own's.

Morality is a human concept, so there's only one definition. A moral system is a value system based on the concepts of "right" and "wrong." Any value system that isn't based on these concepts isn't a moral system. That's all there is to it.

QB's value system isn't moral. It's not based on the concept of "right" and "wrong," it's based on logic. That's why, according to his value system, stalling the entropy of the universe is more important than the lives of the magical girls or even the human race in general. The universe houses all life in existent so it's quantitatively more important than the human race alone. It's pure (and absolutely amoral) logic.

I suppose you could say he's utilitarian, but that definition doesn't apply to him like it would a human being. For a human being, being utilitarian (or not) would be a choice. For QB, on the other hand, is not, because he lacks empathy and emotions so he can only assign value to things based on logic.

[maplehurry]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Like you said, QB can be described as utilitarian. But someone who's entirely apathetic and cold would not necessarily be a utilitarian, as he could've simply not care to prolong the life of the universe. Maybe QB's selfish and he only does so to prolong his own life and he sugarcoats his intention, but there's no evidence to really say this is the case. But suppose he's sincere with his intention to prolong the life of the universe, then it's hard to argue he's entirely apathetic in this case, as someone truly apathetic would've done nothing for that purpose. QB relied heavily on logic, but that doesn't automatically make someone a utilitarian. So what makes QB a utilitarian? Is he born to be this way ? Maybe, but I don't see enough evidence to be convinced that he (the mastermind) has less free will than a random human.

Sidenote: sorry to moderator for the off-topic discussion here

[Kazu-kun]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Maybe, but I don't see enough evidence to be convinced that he has less free will than a random human.

QB's lack of emotions certainly limits his behavior and value system in comparison to ours. And there is plenty evidence. He says many times that he can't understand human values and morals, and his behaviors supports that claim.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. You asked how do I know the LRIGs can't use their powers outside the game.

My main focus was on "How do you know that her LRIG can only do wish-based mind-reading?" That's why I bolded that part of what I was quoting in my reply to you here.

I'm not going to spoon-feed you. You can google that stuff on your own.

I already have my own position on this, and I'm content with it. If you don't want to support your arguments against one or more of my positions, then so be it. I'm not looking to be "spoon-fed" in any way, shape, or form. Just don't expect me to change my mind if you're not going to give me a good reason to.

The basis of morality is empathy. We develop a sense of what's right and wrong by putting ourselves in other people's shoes (both consciously and unconsciously). You can't pass moral judgment on an entity that doesn't feel emotions because such a being is simply incapable to understand our moral values.

Star Trek's Data was perfectly capable of understanding human moral values, even when he had no emotions whatsoever. So I don't find your argument here compelling at all. Empathy is important, but you don't have to feel something to intellectually understand it.

She didn't do that.

What do you mean she didn't do that? She insulted them. That is a simple fact.

I disagree.

This is what trash-talking is. It is clearly what Akira engaged in to a significant degree throughout each of her two battles.

Originally Posted by Arkeus

"The battle was horrible... and yet everything i wanted was to be in Hitoe's place" would be more correct.

There was no "and yet everything I wanted was to be in Hitoe's place" after what I quoted. There was a "But...", but that was all. At least in the subs I had.

Ruko doesn't think /Akira/ was horrible or immoral, just that the battle was pretty horrible.

You don't know that. Ruko may well have thought that what made the battle horrible was Akira's actions in the battle and how they affected Hitoe. That makes perfectly good sense to me. You may not like this interpretation, but it's perfectly viable, and I think it makes more sense than your interpretation. I mean, if Ruko was perfectly cool with everything that Akira did, then why would she consider the Akira/Hitoe battle horrible?

Except she later thinks it was her own problem because /she began the battle before she was experienced enough/

She thinks it's her own problem for losing the match, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has no issue with how Akira played against her. A competitor can simultaneously take responsibility for losing a match and still resent an opponent's play-style.

Ruko is totally dissociative of any sense of morality, all she can think of is "i want to battle".

I totally disagree. Ruko clearly cares about other people. She cares about her grandmother, she cares about her friends, she didn't like seeing Hitoe in tears (and Hitoe was a complete stranger to her). To argue that Ruko has no sense of morality is frankly ridiculous.

[maplehurry]

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

QB's lack of emotions certainly limits his behavior and value system in comparison to ours. And there is plenty evidence. He says many times that he can't understand human values and morals, and his behaviors supports that claim.

He also comments that he always asks for the girls' consent for contract, and he avoids outright lying even though he withholds information. He also discusses the "ethics" of raising and eating livestock with Madoka, and how he believes he treats human better than he would for any other non-sentient beings. He cannot comprehend many of the human values but he believes what he's doing is for the greater good. He would try to dissuade the girls if it leads to something bad/waste, and persuade them when it will lead to something positive (from his pov). QB does have his own moral system from his point of view.

Hypothetically speaking, suppose there's a sentient alien race that does what black widows do, along with a whole bunch of other "incomprehensible" life styles. We human may see this alien race lacking a moral system, but that's not necessarily the case... They can very well have one from their own pov.

[Guido]

Yesterday, I watched the first episode.

Since it's been more than six years that I abandoned the card game genre in the likes of the Yu-Gi-Oh and other such franchises, I do not know how to feel about WIXOSS. Because what both entertains and interests me are the human characters engaging the real world rather dueling each other with their Lrig via the card game, which that latter part feels so derivative and clichéd to me. For an observation, IMO, Tama resembles a cute, female Lrig version of Pokemon's protagonist, Ash Ketchum, with all that craving and crying to battle. However, even I could tell that she's gotten a pronounced lust for violence in battle.

Overall, WIXOSS has this following mix:
- The plot has a slight stroke of Angelic Layer except that the female players use card characters instead. Then, it follows that the world of WIXOSS has similar prohibitions and punishments like the Accel World has in regards to players who lose certain amount of duels. Lastly, IMO, the manner how the characters are executed while engaging each other in the real world seeking friendships or closing interaction with others may hold potential reminiscent to the characters in Black * Rock Shooter, though not of the same caliber.

[silvercover]

hmm.

im thinking that the reason tama doesnt know is due to ruuko herself.
perhaps her having no wishes is reflected on tama, which resulted in her being childish and not having the "knowledge" like the other LRIG's seem to be saying.

[Utsuro no Hako]

This episode makes clear that Yuzuki doesn't belong in the game. One loss unnerved her worse Hitoe's two, and she's projecting it onto Ruuko, even though Ruuko's showing signs of the same battle-hunger as Aki. Yuzuki needs to stick to playing friendly games with Hitoe and let Ruuko do some real matches.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

This episode makes clear that Yuzuki doesn't belong in the game. One loss unnerved her worse Hitoe's two, and she's projecting it onto Ruuko, even though Ruuko's showing signs of the same battle-hunger as Aki. Yuzuki needs to stick to playing friendly games with Hitoe and let Ruuko do some real matches.

More like the same battle hunger as Tama. It seems pretty clear that Tama or something seems to be influencing Ruko as time goes on (obviously, Hanayo and Midoriko also seem to know what's happening too). It seems to be becoming less about the fun about playing with friends (like casually before) and more about just the sheer adrenaline rush of being in those battles.

I have a feeling that those feelings will eventually end up overtaking Ruko at some point, she'll end up fighting Yuzuki or Hitoe and end up taking it too far somehow, and then lead to a whole episode after of Ruko angst and depression, and fear of battling again, period, lest she end up losing herself again.

EDIT: Also, those other girls at Ruko and Yuzuki's school were just so pathetic. I couldn't help but laugh when Akira showed a bit of her true colors and just brush them off after they did the job for her.

[Benigmatica]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

I have a feeling that those feelings will eventually end up overtaking Ruko at some point, she'll end up fighting Yuzuki or Hitoe and end up taking it too far somehow, and then lead to a whole episode after of Ruko angst and depression, and fear of battling again, period, lest she end up losing herself again.

You know what, why not Ruko win battles, destroy her current world, and make a new one where Selectors didn't exist. That's my suggestion for her wish!

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

This episode makes clear that Yuzuki doesn't belong in the game. One loss unnerved her worse Hitoe's two, and she's projecting it onto Ruuko, even though Ruuko's showing signs of the same battle-hunger as Aki. Yuzuki needs to stick to playing friendly games with Hitoe and let Ruuko do some real matches.

I'm starting to think it's a really bad idea to let Ruko battle.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My main focus was on "How do you know that her LRIG can only do wish-based mind-reading?" That's why I bolded that part of what I was quoting in my reply to you here.

Because that's the only thing it's done. If it had greater mind reading abilities Akira would have used them, since she has no reason to hold back.

I already have my own position on this, and I'm content with it. If you don't want to support your arguments against one or more of my positions, then so be it. I'm not looking to be "spoon-fed" in any way, shape, or form. Just don't expect me to change my mind if you're not going to give me a good reason to.

I'm pretty sure my argument was holding up well enough without this. I just told you about it because it was relevant. You don't have to believe me, and If you want the source you'll have to look for it yourself because I'm pretty sure I don't have it anymore. There's a wiki about Madoka that has a lot of info. Maybe you'll find something about it there.

Star Trek's Data was perfectly capable of understanding human moral values, even when he had no emotions whatsoever. So I don't find your argument here compelling at all. Empathy is important, but you don't have to feel something to intellectually understand it.

Intellectually speaking, a computer (and QB) could only understand that we humans have this sort of value system, but they would never be able to understand why, and therefore would never be able to hold the same values. Moral values have their roots on feelings, and from a purely logical point of view, they don't have much basis. Just go ahead and try to justify, from a logical point of view, why we value individual life (other than your own, of course). Don't post your conclusions here, it'd be terrible off-topic. Just do it for yourself, as a personal experiment.

What do you mean she didn't do that? She insulted them. That is a simple fact.

The closest thing to an insult she said is that Yuzuki's incestuous feelings are "ero-poi" which was translated to dirty but actually means sexy/erotic. She also said the word "incest" but that's a fact.

Spoiler for Comparison to Madoka Magica:

Originally Posted by maplehurry

He also comments that he always asks for the girls' consent for contract, and he avoids outright lying even though he withholds information.

Because he has learned that this is necessary, otherwise they would no accept his proposition, or suspect too much. Those are decisions purely based on logical assessments, not moral values.

He also discusses the "ethics" of raising and eating livestock with Madoka, and how he believes he treats human better than he would for any other non-sentient beings.

Again, he discusses this from a purely logical point of view, not a moral one. That's why Madoka can't possible understand him. She, as an emotional being, is unable to think in purely logical terms.

He cannot comprehend many of the human values but he believes what he's doing is for the greater good.

Not in those terms. He thinks the universe is important, but he assigns value to it from a logical perspective.

He would try to dissuade the girls if it leads to something bad/waste, and persuade them when it will lead to something positive (from his pov). QB does have his own moral system from his point of view.

No. Again he's just thinking in purely logical terms. What's useful or not for his job and such. There's nothing moral about this.

Hypothetically speaking, suppose there's a sentient alien race that does what black widows do, along with a whole bunch of other "incomprehensible" life styles. We human may see this alien race lacking a moral system, but that's not necessarily the case... They can very well have one from their own pov.

If they have a moral system, even if it's totally different from ours, we would be able to tell. For example, in the past, individual life didn't hold as much moral value as it does today. In fact, it didn't hold any moral value whatsoever at some points in human history. But even then there were other things that did hold moral value: honor, loyalty, for example. But QB truly doesn't seem to hold any moral values whatsoever. He assigns value from a purely logical perspective.