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Old 2006-04-23, 04:30   Link #81
LytHka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starks
Back when I was in Anime-Kraze (early 2004), he always considered himself a "saviour" among fansubbers. I worshipped him as such because I didn't know better back then... It wasn't until he personally kicked me out Anime-Kraze did I realize how much of a dick he was and how he took great pleasure in spitting in the eyes of his mindless followers who share his ideals.

Why do people treat Lythka as if he holds authority here? He's nothing more than a timer from Anime-Kraze. He's nobody special!

I thought that idea of fansub entitlement had died out over the past few months... I guess I was wrong. Lythka needs to understand that fansubs are a spontaneous benefit, not a priviledge or a right!
Woah there, I completely missed this one.

I considered myself a "saviour"? I had worshippers? I was an Anime-Kraze member? I kicked people out of a group I WAS NEVER EVEN INVOLVED WITH?!?
Starks, my beloved overambitious-ex-AnimeJunkies-staff-"devilray's-e-pen0r-wannabe"-raw-provider from-a-group-who-does-translations-from-chinese-fansubs, you're even wrong on the account that I was online for "+3 years" when I really just joined in #animejunkies as a newbie leecher perhaps 33 months ago? You, sir, are mistaking me for someone else.

And you're absolutely right! I'm nobody special. I'm just a guy who wants to express his opinions and beliefs a little bit differently.
I have to admit, I never really knew that BxTrnts was such an immoral bunch of people, though seeing they fear the "ADV" made me think they could be of this fandom's realm.
And to answer why does it seem that I hold some authority here? Perhaps I do, perhaps I don't. You basically have to take a good look at the framework in which we're holding this discussion in. This is AnimeSuki! If you're going to flame me for separating the terms "fansub" and warez, you're almost definitely flaming this site as well! AnimeSuki is not a warez site by their standards because anime fansubs != warez, but by everyone's standards in this topic (except mine's and perhaps AnimeSuki's), apparently fansubs = warez. So, why doesn't AnimeSuki do anything against me? It seems as if I'm one person of a microscopic minority who believes down to his gut in the legitimacy of the production of (some) fansubs, and still the moderators choose to leave me alone. Now, I suggest you think really hard and maybe you're going to get the answer to that one. Why...
Spoiler for the answer:
... yet they leave this topic open for a flamefest against me, because they hate my guts. Toodles... ;o

Last edited by LytHka; 2006-04-23 at 05:28. Reason: fixed the spoiler quote
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Old 2006-04-23, 04:53   Link #82
physics223
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AnimeSuki doesn't do anything against you because you are given freedom of speech here, as we all are, provided we respect one another.

That doesn't mean they condone your beliefs. If it meant that, it also means they condone ours. It's a freedom-of-speech thing. You don't have to drag AnimeSuki.

Heh! You broke your promise again! You said you WERE going to have nothing to do with this thread. But that's who you are.
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Old 2006-04-23, 05:29   Link #83
Ensign Shiro Amada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
AnimeSuki doesn't do anything against you because you are given freedom of speech here, as we all are, provided we respect one another.
I'm guessing what LytHka meant was that they didn't close this topic (though, in all fairness, he did start it) after it became a flame-fest. It should have been, but here we are.

This whole argument about what's moral and immoral is fluff. The reason why unlicensed fansubbed anime isn't considered warez here (or by the community, for the most part) is because the Japanese aren't going to come after us for distributing it. So you're stealing their intellectual property (the distribution rights, not the actual video that aired on TV, you morons), but you're in no danger of being prosecuted, so it's all good and "moral," right? Does this change after a series is licensed in the US? It does for some, but not for all, since not everyone faces the danger of being prosecuted (in theory, regardless of whether a company actually decides to pursue it). There's no such thing as one thing being more illegal than the other, it's all illegal. Fansubbing is illegal, that's it. Distributing fansubs is illegal, though it's not stealing unless there are DVDs out since, in theory, it's the equivalent of passing around a VHS copy a few thousand times. When a company distributes anything (anime or otherwise) for profit and someone else distributes copies, the copies automatically become stolen goods, even if you're not trying to make money off of them. So basically what I'm trying to say is don't preach to me about what's moral or not, just pass around the video tape or don't.
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Old 2006-04-23, 06:58   Link #84
runpsicat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starks
Back when I was in Anime-Kraze (early 2004), he always considered himself a "saviour" among fansubbers. I worshipped him as such because I didn't know better back then... It wasn't until he personally kicked me out Anime-Kraze did I realize how much of a dick he was and how he took great pleasure in spitting in the eyes of his mindless followers who share his ideals.

Why do people treat Lythka as if he holds authority here? He's nothing more than a timer from Anime-Kraze. He's nobody special!
I would just like to verify Lythka's response that he has never been an A-Kraze staff member. Perhaps you have the wrong person in mind and therefore think of him more negatively than is due (not that I know anything about other conversations you may have had with Lythka).

Though I doubt the comment was written with a general insult towards timers in mind, I am somewhat "uhh" at the seeming implication that the opinion of timers merits less consideration than that of other staff.

On a perhaps more on-topic note, it seems all the points possible have been covered (again, or maybe three or more times even), so I personally believe this thread has outlived its usefulness.

Regards,

runpsicat
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Old 2006-04-23, 07:06   Link #85
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runpsicat
On a perhaps more on-topic note, it seems all the points possible have been covered (again, or maybe three or more times even), so I personally believe this thread has outlived its usefulness.
You said it. ><

-Tofu
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Old 2006-04-23, 08:44   Link #86
physics223
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Yeah. Everyone should just ws0fsjo19583019jsasp ...
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Old 2006-04-23, 12:38   Link #87
SirCanealot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runpsicat
I am somewhat "uhh" at the seeming implication that the opinion of timers merits less consideration than that of other staff.
Good timers that stay good timers deserve more respect than anyone else. I went crazy doing it and I don't do it too often any more, and so have a hell of a lot of other people I know :P
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Old 2006-04-23, 22:24   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LytHka
I have to admit, I never really knew that BxTrnts was such an immoral bunch of people, though seeing they fear the "ADV" made me think they could be of this fandom's realm.

And to answer why does it seem that I hold some authority here? Perhaps I do, perhaps I don't. You basically have to take a good look at the framework in which we're holding this discussion in. This is AnimeSuki! If you're going to flame me for separating the terms "fansub" and warez, you're almost definitely flaming this site as well! AnimeSuki is not a warez site by their standards because anime fansubs != warez, but by everyone's standards in this topic (except mine's and perhaps AnimeSuki's), apparently fansubs = warez. So, why doesn't AnimeSuki do anything against me? It seems as if I'm one person of a microscopic minority who believes down to his gut in the legitimacy of the production of (some) fansubs, and still the moderators choose to leave me alone. Now, I suggest you think really hard and maybe you're going to get the answer to that one. Why...
Spoiler for the answer:
... yet they leave this topic open for a flamefest against me, because they hate my guts. Toodles... ;o

Okies, first i think i'll defend box torrents. I've used them regularly for a while now, and foiund them to be really good. I've found some of the harder to locate anime on there. Sure they list some licensed anime, but then they're no different from ISOHunt, Point-Blank, Demenoid and a slew of others.

Yes they removed ADV torrents, simply cause they were asked to, same way as fansub groups get asked to, the recieved a C&D.

They dont fear ADV, they just dont see the point in rocking the boat.

Like the afore mentioned trackers they have a policy in place, if someone finds a anime they have licensed they can request its removal. A fansub group cant really demand its removal, since they dont own it, ADV or Media Blasters or whoever can, since they have the license, and BT and the afore mentioned sites remove links as they're notified.

Moving on, Fansubed anime are not warez, warez is a term given to cracked software, such as windows or office.

However fansubbed anime ARE illegal, its a breach of copy right which is both a civil and criminal offence. Now saying animesuki is commiting a crime is debatable, since they neither make the fansubs, or host the files on site, its a debatable point. All they do is provide an index, at best i'd say its moraly wrong, but since im both a fan and a subber, i cant really point any fingers so i dont care :P

Now groups who take a show from TV and alter it with subs are commiting a crime, you can sugar coat it anyway you like, a crime is still a crime.

Why the mods have left this thread open is debateable, presonally id of deleted it straight away, since it has nothing to do with a fansub group, and is nothing but a flame from the first post. I dont see you as the moral preacher, or as an immoral one, i do see you as a deluded person trying to convince himself he's not doing anything wrong.

Wake up and accept the truth and move on. If you cant acceot the truth then you shouldnt be fansubbing. Saying your fan doing it out of love is just a delusion, a crime is still a crime even if done out of love.
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Old 2006-04-29, 18:07   Link #89
primalmx
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In the land of piracy, anime is equivalent to porn. People download mounds of it, yet when was the last time you heard "OHNOES I got teh su3d 4 boobz".

If the anime companies wanted to, they would pull a RIAA and try to scare us all away... but like illegal immigrants in the US, getting rid of all of it is a double edged sword. If suddenly a few groups got "busted"(like in the warez scene a few months ago), torrent sites closed, "YOU got teh busted" letters to a few fans, anime interest would severly take a hit. I mean the reason why a lot of these shows become popular once they come West is because of fansubs... come now it is much easier to sample Naruto for free when it was being fansubbed, then if u had to shell out 40 bux a dvd for what is ist 4 episodes? I mean NO one should ever have to watch a dub.... I for one refuse to shell out even $0.01 for an anime/anime products I have never seen before.

So is fansubbing piracy. Sure it is, just like porn is piracy(erm the porn movies n such) But, in a way the "anime craze" lives off of it... if suddenly fansubs were eliminated, then Im sure animecons would be less lively. Anime is a great example of how P2P and such isnt bad, but can help... you watch a fansub, you think it is awesome, then when it gets here you shell out a lot of $$$$$$$$$$. Now not everyone does... but you get my jist

~prime
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Old 2006-04-29, 19:44   Link #90
bayoab
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Here we go again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by primalmx
In the land of piracy, anime is equivalent to porn. People download mounds of it, yet when was the last time you heard "OHNOES I got teh su3d 4 boobz".
Actually, there was an article years ago when the RIAA started suing people about how the porn industry handles pirates. The answer is that they make deals instead of suing that are usually like "Buy a pass to our site and promise never to distribute again and we will leave you alone." It is not like the anime industry could make up for all the lost money by following the same means, nor could they keep the person from continuing.

Quote:
If suddenly a few groups got "busted"(like in the warez scene a few months ago), torrent sites closed, "YOU got teh busted" letters to a few fans, anime interest would severly take a hit.
You pulled this out of your ass. This has happened multiple times before and nothing has happened like you said.

Quote:
I mean the reason why a lot of these shows become popular once they come West is because of fansubs...
Prove this please. Oh wait, you can't.

Quote:
come now it is much easier to sample Naruto for free when it was being fansubbed, then if u had to shell out 40 bux a dvd for what is ist 4 episodes?
Last I checked, $40 gets a you 13 uncut episodes, bilingual with a headband.

Quote:
I mean NO one should ever have to watch a dub.... I for one refuse to shell out even $0.01 for an anime/anime products I have never seen before.
Lets just start with 80% of the watchers want a dub and refuse to buy sub only. I am not touching the second part of this.

Quote:
if suddenly fansubs were eliminated, then Im sure animecons would be less lively.
Conventions are not about fansubs. They are about fans. Fans go there to learn about new (commercially released) shows. There are some great cons where the only evidence of fansubs you see are cosplayers.
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Old 2006-04-29, 21:14   Link #91
primalmx
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*Sigh*, I guess I'll "defend" myself.. but I dont feel like typing to every criticsim, , so let me just pick the one that bothers me Mkai And so it doesnt seem like "I pulled it out of my ass" or "Prove it because I cant disprove you!!!!!" Ill try to colour it with examples... personal ones too

" If suddenly fansubs were eliminated, then Im sure animecons would be less lively. " and "I mean the reason why a lot of these shows become popular once they come West is because of fansubs..." come now.. really... you dont believe this.. not even a smidge... really? Anime Craze has been FUELED by fansubs from VHS days and the internet only enhanced this.

What keeps the anime-craze alive. FANBSUBS. Like it or not the fansubs are there because the fans WANT those shows (and with actually good translations ). Fansubs are readily available online, you can watch em, and slowly it sucks you in(thats why we are here!). These fansubs are what reals in new, for lack of a better word, Otakus in year after year. Heck, sending a link to animesuki to try and persuade my friends to check out anime is heck of a lot easier than telling them to buy a DVD (as my collection isnt exactly super large, or complete.. especially when it comes to "IN Japan" stuff :P). Animecons are sure about anime, but their attendance is linked to fansubs. My first animecon that I went to, why did I go? My friend lent me his Kenshin on VHS(old school yaaaaaaaah), I looooved this sword, and I wanted more :P I took myself, my bro and two other friends... Thats 4 people more than would have normally come :O

If a fansub watcher then watches these animes, and thinks it kicks ass what happens? Well if the show is good enough if probably makes its way to American TV... and I myself have been crooning about Bleach to my non-anime-but-adult-swim-watching-friends (I swore I read somewhere its coming to adult swim). I sent a link to a Korean friend of Samurai Champloo while it was fansubbed, and she went and got her friends hooked on it You think the networks in teh states dont pay the slightest attention to fansubs, and popularity of them at anime cons and online... if they are bringing it here, they are going to make sure there is some sort of money worthy audience to it... and what better way to ensure money than word of mouth


Now these are personal examples yes, maybe you will say " PRIME teh n00b and liar!! More example out of teh Arse!!" but its just to prove my point And dont even try to say its just a one time thing and never ever happens outside of my life :P

It's all about the fansubs. Fansubs effect anime as we know it :P You will slowly erode the OMFG-I-loves-teh-Anime pplz as it isnt just "online" before it comes out here. Before P2P came along, I listened to just what was popular, maybe occassionaly what a friend slipped me. So I dont get more "Prove it!!" another life story:

After P2P and the ease to get music, I developed a craze for Techno, trance, and all sorts of music I thought was stupid. Before P2P(or "fansubs") I really didnt listen to music, maybe what was popular, or what made it to MTV... but that was about it. P2P comes along, suddenly everyone has MASSIVELY HUGE music libraries, friends who used to have smaller collections, suddenly were burning me music from europe, asia, greece, croatia etc. So many songs that I would have NEVER purchased, heck they wernt even available. I got the taste for techo and trance, and now that little section in the music store I saw as "WTF is Electronika" gets a lot of my money now If a DJ is in town that I like, you bet I go.

Fansubs = more anime fans = more popularity = more people at anime con :P

No fansubs = go by what is around and translated = not as many people interested due to lack of eas in exposure = less people at animecons

IF I want to know about new and exicting aniems, Ill go on the net and read up on it. When I go to an animecon, its to get a hold of those harder to get goodies of my favorite animes, and talk it up about how XXXX so kicks but, and how sad it is that XXXXX prob wont make it here.

If you dont at least nod and say "Well you may have some sort of a point", then there is no use in continuing as it will go on and on and on :P If your going to say stuff like "You pulled it out of your ass" and "Prove it Oh wait you can't" Please disprove me with statistics, from some sort of credible site.. I hate to argue a point when statistics prove me wrong... I dont mind being wrong, but it annoys me when people say stuff like that without direct evidence that Im wrong :P

~prime

P.S When you get your "TEH BUSTED LETTER", weel see how many animes you watch and how current you stay Unless you got deep pockets, and a master at Japanese :P In which case... wanna translate anime for me Remember "TEH BUSTED" for fansubs not ADV films and US ones.

Last edited by primalmx; 2006-04-29 at 21:28.
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Old 2006-04-29, 22:23   Link #92
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primalmx
" If suddenly fansubs were eliminated, then Im sure animecons would be less lively. " and "I mean the reason why a lot of these shows become popular once they come West is because of fansubs..." come now.. really... you dont believe this.. not even a smidge... really? Anime Craze has been FUELED by fansubs from VHS days and the internet only enhanced this.
For some shows, fansubs have helped. I will give that. I will NOT give that no fansubs = anime dies. Lots of things would become popular without fansubs. You are also combining two issues. The original fansubs did help anime become popular. But in this day and age, fansubs are not a big proponent. The availablity of anime at this point allows anyone with an interest to walk into bestbuy or walmart and purchase a movie or another show they have heard about from another person who bought it. (This may or may not chain down to fansubs. It may chain down to raw watchers or Japanese people themselves.)

Quote:
What keeps the anime-craze alive. FANBSUBS. Like it or not the fansubs are there because the fans WANT those shows (and with actually good translations ).
The lack of fansubs has never hurt sales of a show. No company has ever gone "I wish someone had fansubbed this series." The availability of fansubs has "hurt" and "helped" sales before. (This means sells better/worse than expected in the eyes of the company expectations which are based on sales of similar series and sales in Japan.) I am trying to think of a good example of a show that has had no fansubs and sold very well. The problem is that people will fansub everything and anything. So the "one that wasn't fansubbed" is harder to find than the "sold well".

Myth: Fansubs have better translation than a commercial product.
Reality: Most commercial products have better translations than 2nd year japanese students.

Quote:
You think the networks in teh states dont pay the slightest attention to fansubs, and popularity of them at anime cons and online... if they are bringing it here, they are going to make sure there is some sort of money worthy audience to it... and what better way to ensure money than word of mouth
Have you ever talked to anyone from the industry?

Firstly: You are correct in that word of mouth is a strong way of measuring sales, but the industry does not watch fansubs numbers as closely as people claim. Why is that? Because there are better metrics than fansubs. There may be 500000 people downloading a show but only 1 person per convention cosplaying it? Why would that be? Logic says because the series sucks. There might be 1000 people downloading a show but 500 people cosplaying it. Again what does this say. Fansubs do affect cosplayer metrics and some of the other metrics. But they do not look at fansubs and go "OMG, 20000, we must license" because they know that most of those 20000 will never purchase the DVD.

Other examples of metrics are : How the japanese sales are? How internet culture is seeing it (if it gets 5000 fan pages or 1 fan page.)? How expensive is it? How has this type of series sold before? etc etc.

Secondly: There are a handful (~10-15%) of series that are pre-licensed every season before they even air. The companies do not need fansubs to tell them what will and will not sell unless its something they had dismissed.


Quote:
It's all about the fansubs. Fansubs effect anime as we know it :P You will slowly erode the OMFG-I-loves-teh-Anime pplz as it isnt just "online" before it comes out here. Before P2P came along, I listened to just what was popular, maybe occassionaly what a friend slipped me. So I dont get more "Prove it!!" another life story:

Fansubs = more anime fans = more popularity = more people at anime con :P

No fansubs = go by what is around and translated = not as many people interested due to lack of eas in exposure = less people at animecons
And you just hit the heart of the issue. TV audiance and popularity give sales. Fansubs rarely change the popularity of a show. Naruto and Bleach were/are megahits in Japan. They would have been popular regardless of fansubs. They are gaining popularity because they are popular. (See DBZ effect). You do not see the people who watch naruto and bleach spreading into other shows. There are some shows where they have definitely exploded due to fansubs (Haruhi). But this would probably have happened regardless of if it was fansubbed or not. There are also shows which had very little audiance when fansubbed (Gash Bell), but are doing extremely well (#3 on toonami).

Quote:
If you dont at least nod and say "Well you may have some sort of a point", then there is no use in continuing as it will go on and on and on :P If your going to say stuff like "You pulled it out of your ass" and "Prove it Oh wait you can't" Please disprove me with statistics, from some sort of credible site.. I hate to argue a point when statistics prove me wrong... I dont mind being wrong, but it annoys me when people say stuff like that without direct evidence that Im wrong :P

~prime
Part of your point is valid and part is not. Part of it is you are repeating a bunch of myths which have been repeated countlessly on this board and disproved. (Maybe I should make a new thread on this.) I am not stating the effect of fansubs is 0. I am saying it is overhyped. People claim no fansubs will kill anime when anime originally started in the US without fansubs with super edited tv airings.

If you want solid evidence, this is what Geneon had to say in their 2004(?) Otakon panel: "Fansubs have hurt the sales bad series, fansubs have helped the sale of good series". (It is very hard to find actual statistics because most of it is what companies say at panels which is very hard to verify. Companies are also VERY secretive about sales figures and projections.)

Quote:
P.S When you get your "TEH BUSTED LETTER", weel see how many animes you watch and how current you stay Unless you got deep pockets, and a master at Japanese :P In which case... wanna translate anime for me Remember "TEH BUSTED" for fansubs not ADV films and US ones.
Huh? All of the people who I know who got C&D letters are still in anime or out grew it at this point.

Last edited by bayoab; 2006-04-29 at 22:37.
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Old 2006-04-29, 23:03   Link #93
Starks
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If everyone started using private trackers (only way to disable DHT for a torrent), there would be decreased likelihood of an unwanted torrent repost when a group drops a series.
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Old 2006-04-30, 00:24   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starks
If everyone started using private trackers (only way to disable DHT for a torrent), there would be decreased likelihood of an unwanted torrent repost when a group drops a series.
Not really, once some one has the the release it takes all of 30 seconds to add another traker to the torrent, or to make a new torrent. Which is what a lot of release sites do.

If you dont want your releases to go out after they've been licensed, dont sub em. No matter what method you use, if you release it to the general public, either through IRC, BT, eDK, its going to end up being re-released elsewhere sooner or later.
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Old 2006-04-30, 00:32   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliesin
If you dont want your releases to go out after they've been licensed, dont sub em. No matter what method you use, if you release it to the general public, either through IRC, BT, eDK, its going to end up being re-released elsewhere sooner or later.
What about a pseudo-DRM?
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Old 2006-04-30, 04:00   Link #96
Zero1
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MP4 can have DRM...

If you are truely evil you could encrypt certain tracks and put the key on some website. When the show is licensed, remove the key from the website... The thing with that is you would need a live internet connection to be able to watch it I think.

Thankfully, everyone knows that DRM is retarded and inconvienient, so this feature of MP4 isn't going to go anywhere, and I doubt that companies will use it either. They will stick to things such as WMV or whatever.

If people start releasing encrypted fansubs in MP4, I will personally crack, transmux and distro an MKV version of it >:)

I appreciate "the old fashioned ways of fansubbing", but I don't appreciate invasive DRM shit.
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Old 2006-04-30, 08:00   Link #97
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How bizarrely ironic, pirates copy-protecting their pirated releases, to prevent piracy of the piracy...

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that DRM does not work.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
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Old 2006-04-30, 09:39   Link #98
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff
How bizarrely ironic, pirates copy-protecting their pirated releases, to prevent piracy of the piracy...

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that DRM does not work.
Haha, good one. I think Starks' idea was some kind of attempt (I say attempt, cause DRM is useless) at controlled piracy (ie render the fansubs expired at will), but we all know that DRM is useless
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Old 2006-04-30, 11:51   Link #99
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff
How bizarrely ironic, pirates copy-protecting their pirated releases, to prevent piracy of the piracy...

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that DRM does not work.
(Note: Skimmed, article was too showboaty and theoretical. Did read the math part which I am assuming is what the paper talks about.) That paper only talks about the kind of DRM that requires distributed licenses and keys. It does not talk about other forms of DRM (op codes, hardware checks, etc). If you implement DRM in a fansub, you would not use a key/license. That is just trivial.
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Old 2006-04-30, 12:08   Link #100
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
It does not talk about other forms of DRM (op codes, hardware checks, etc).
Yes, it does. Please read it before starting with the flaming.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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