Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Crontica

I can sense a lot of people have not watched or even mentioned the Soudanshitsu ova's before the second season of fate began. Please go and watch Fate/Zero: Onegai before continuing with this discussion.

The fact that the holy grail can choose not to grant your wish on any basis deemable by it's own judgement is already a blaring alarm bell that this is a futile quest at best, i can only assume Kirisugu has researched this critical information before hand, how he is going to restrain the grail is anyone's guess.

I am appalled at the number of people who are trying to twist Kirisugu's statements just to a avoid / gloss over / or sugarcoat a fundamental flaw with the physics of the earth.

Kirisugu has given his own piece of the pie on his own opinions on the matter of affairs the world is in. He has not said exactly how he is using the grail to bring this about, or what basis he is judging this entire fiasco on, one thing can be said for sure he is not in the sanest state of affairs.

The only 'judgement' was that the grail belong to the strongest, i.e. the winner. This is true especially considering the real circumstances surrounding the Holy Grail war.

from Fuyuki wiki.
'Einzbern Grails, provided there is a persona bestowed upon them, will give that same persona the special thaumaturgy trait of wish granting; casting spells without the direct knowledge of how to use them. Prana itself can be used unprocessed to do that persona's wishes while operating under the limitations of resources (how much prana there is) and time; [True] magic of course isn't possible.'

Basically its still a tool that the user must use manually to accomplish their wish. Its not like a genie, it just give you the tools to grant your wish by your own means.

[SagaraSouske]

During the entire show, despite what was known about his assassination methods, Kirisugu hardly killed any innocent bystander. However cruel his methods it may seem, all the people he killed are master and servants of this game, or grail war as he sees it. These people are willing participants of a ruthless struggle under the condition of winner takes all. All Kirisugu is doing is using pragmatic methods to help him win this war - which is not quite the same as end justify the means as he isn't involving anyone outside of this struggle. As someone else may have mentioned earlier in an episode thread, if he really wanted to just win at any cost, he could have launched a nuke in the city once all the masters arrive and killed everyone and instantly win the war since no other servant really have strong enough defensive noble fantasms that could have protected their masters besides Saber.

You can say Kirisugu is ruthless and despises chivalry, pride, honor and anything that gets in front of reality of war. He is not quite at the point where he will kill 1000 to save 10000. All the sacrifice he made is of himself and those close to him, who are willing to be part of his plan. The Kirisugu Saber sees is what author wanted the reader/viewer to see but with hints here and there showing that's not the true Kirisugu. His one fault was not to get Saber buying into his true intentions - which I am sure she would if Kirisugu bother to open himself to her the same way he did to his wife. But if he did that, there would be much less story to tell.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Sheba

On the contrary, the earlier episodes of the first season showed the mindset of El-Melloi pretty well. He entered the war expecting that people participating in the war will play by a certain set of rules, like fine gentlemen. A mindset similar to someone who expect a Napoleonic war and gets assymmetrical war à la Vietnam War instead. He never expected someone like Kiritsugu who is willing to bomb a hotel, he never expected someone bringing a gun to a mage fight, and he paid it dearly for it.

Kiritsugu's methods were outside of his expectations, but my point was that he knew it was a fight to the death from the start and decided to enter this war nevertheless. He was a willing participant and in now way a victim. He should known there was a big chance he and his wife would die miserably (we are aware for example that there were no survivors in the second war).

With that in mind, I honestly don't see why I should be bad for him, especially when he had such a petty reason for taking part in this war. He played and he lost, that's all there is to it.

Now, if Waver were to be killed in a similar fashion, I would definitely feel horrible for him, as he had no idea what he was in for. That and he is actually a likable character.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

[INDENT]How were they despicable? Kayneth didn't do anything wrong this entire time except be a pompous ass. He didn't kill innocent children or anything. Sola-Ui was enchanted so you can't take her actions to heart. Everything Kayneth did was to win the war and Sola to win Lancer. There are much worse characters in this series and in fiction.

No, she did betray him. Forced him to give her his Command Seals and totally left him for Lancer. Guy got NTR'd.

He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.

Sola-Ui tortured a cripple without batting an eye. I'd say that's pretty despicable.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kanon

He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.

You gotta at least feel a little bad for the guy. He intended to take part in the Holy Grail War and lost more than just his life.

Sola-Ui tortured a cripple without batting an eye. I'd say that's pretty despicable.

She was enchanted. Everything she did was because of her "feelings" towards Lancer, feelings that skewed her thought and actions beyond those that are normally accepted.

Originally Posted by giorno

CS are huge bundles of prana, pretty much. They can be burned to fuel spells. Stupidly powerful spells....

Err... I'm not too sure that Risei could use them for that. Nor that they can be used without a Servant and the Grail.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by FlavoryFantasy

re-reading this part now...I'm surprised Kiritsugu would even dare to get the reward.
I mean if Kirei returned as he was receiving it, I'm sure Kirei would've tailed him.

Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that as well. Kiritsugu had said beforehand he did not trust the judge of this war, so I figured he wouldn't even try and reclaim the reward. I guess another chance to control Saber's chivalrous ass was too good to pass up.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Everyone needs to watch the first season over from the BDs too. People wondering why Sola was on the rooftop would find their answer.

Not to mention certain scenes would be bound to improve people's opinion of Kiritsugu, like his scene with Illya in episode 2. The BDs really are required viewing as far as I'm concerned and it's a shame a lot of S2 viewers seem to have overlooked them. Though I suppose it's inevitable for some people, given the pricing.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

The Kirisugu Saber sees is what author wanted the reader/viewer to see but with hints here and there showing that's not the true Kirisugu.

Which is yet another way in which he mirrors Kirei. They both seem to be contradicting their true nature and are being torn apart on the inside for it. Only they're on rather opposite ends of the spectrum, which makes their rivalry all the more compelling.

Originally Posted by Kanon

He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.

He sacrificed all of his personal ambitions for the sake of his loved one and she didn't even love him back. That seems to be the exact opposite of selfish to me.

And he only really became cruel after Kiritsugu reduced him to that state and he was tortured and coerced into giving up what little modicum of pride he had left by his own wife. He didn't really display any particularly cruel behavior before fate itself was unbelievably cruel to him. Saying Kayneth was always cruel and thus deserved to die is like saying Lancer was a scornful bastard for cursing everyone in the end and thus deserves no pity for dying in misery. It's hard to keep up your spirit and virtues when everything you've ever wanted crumbles before your very eyes and life only feeds you shit.

So yeah, much like with some of the criticism thrown at Kiritsugu, I really have to disagree with claims that Kayneth was an actually evil person in any way. He might have had an unpleasant personality, but he was by no means an unredeemable villain and didn't deserve to go out the way he did. Few do, really, and he certainly wasn't one of them.

[Kirarakim]

I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.

Obviously there is more to his character and I will give him the fact that he clearly loved his wife but I just didn't see him as a good person. That doesn't mean I think he deserved to die. But then again either did the person he killed to get the command seal.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.

Like I said, the unpleasant personality was definitely always there, but he only truly became depraved enough to act the way he did in this episode, going as far as ruthlessly killing the harmless supervisor who had just helped him, after he was reduced to that sorry state. Does the fact he's suffered justify his actions and make him a good person? Certainly not. But I don't think it makes him a certifiably cruel person and one deserving of the fate he received either, just like Lancer's state at the end did not encompass all of his being. It's natural for people to show such facets when they're driven to the edge the way the Lancer team was, that's what makes these characters human and believable.

[rpgman1]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.

Obviously there is more to his character and I will give him the fact that he clearly loved his wife but I just didn't see him as a good person. That doesn't mean I think he deserved to die. But then again either did the person he killed to get the command seal.

I wonder how Waver will react to Kayneth's death? Looks like he is still in over his head due to being young. Surely Waver will know about it soon enough anyway.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by rpgman1

I wonder how Waver will react to Kayneth's death? Looks like he is still in over his head due to being young. Surely Waver will know about it soon enough anyway.

That's actually one of the few things I'm disappointed with in Kayneth's demise, the fact that there wasn't any confrontation between him and his foil since their quick exchange back in the battle at the harbor. Their elitism/conservatism vs hard-work-can-overcome-bloodline feud could have been pretty interesting and a good addition to the major theme of the way the magus world functions in Fate, and it might have been particularly interesting to see Kayneth appear before his cheeky student after being reduced to that wheelchair, but I guess we'll never know now.

[Craxuan]

Originally Posted by Kanon

He should known there was a big chance he and his wife would die miserably (we are aware for example that there were no survivors in the second war).

I'm surprised. He said right to his wife from the very beginning of the episode that he will caused her death. It's not a chance, dear Kanon. It's a certainty, and you will learn why very, very soon.

[hero147]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

I'm surprised. He said right to his wife from the very beginning of the episode that he will caused her death. It's not a chance, dear Kanon. It's a certainty, and you will learn why very, very soon.

Kanon was referring to Archibald not Kiritsugu.

[Craxuan]

Oh, my mistake. Then I should say that the Archibald had every confident that a mage of ancient bloodline like him would never, ever lose, despite the inadequacy he had shown during the first battle. I don't believe that he ever considered his death as a possible 'chance', but just downright impossibility. Now his wife however is another thing...

I think somewhere in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia Sola's past and fate was mentioned. Perhaps I was wrong, but I remember it to be very, very bad for Sola. Can someone confirm?

[Theorder14]

maybe ur mistaking her for bazetto? short and similiar hair color.

[D2]

Originally Posted by Phoenix6000

[COLOR="Green"]

Me thinks that you're preaching to the choir.

What I was trying to get across was that in all worlds, our own included, pain and misfortune befall those that do not necessarily deserve their company. I'm not saying Sola was innocent, but watching her get destroyed like that made me cringe. Even so, I still acknowledge the cruelness of reality. Women and children die all the time and sometimes in far more gruesome fashion. Some are born sick or get stuck in inescapable poverty. Life isn't fair.

As you may have noticed there are those among us that continue to condemn how Kiritsugu handled his business, because his methods conflict with their view of how things should be. I also suspect that it is because they have yet to accept that the world they live in is full of tragedy, evil and random chance.

Just because we know it's there doesn't mean we shouldn't despise or accept it.

[Cyz]

I know Kuritsugu is using whatever means necessary but he did it in such a cruel way that he didn't even shed mercy. He had a point on his reasonings though but he trampled a lot of emotions to do it. On a side note, Kayneth really did care for Sola that he decided to throw everything away even though he could get cursed for it.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.

Actually, in the Novel, Saber after her confrontation with him believed that the only person who deserve to obtain the grail is Kiritsugu.

Spoiler for Saber on Kiritsugu from LN:

“– Emiya Kiritsugu, I don’t know what kind of betrayal you were subjected to in the past and why you despaired. But that rage, that lament, are undoubtedly things that those who pursued justice possesses. Kiritsugu, in your youth you should have wanted to be ‘a hero of justice’. You should have believed in and wanted to become a hero who saves the world more than anyone else – isn’t that so?”

Until now, the only attitudes Kiritsugu had shown to Saber were complete ignorance and cold scorn. But now, Kiritsugu, having heard Saber’s quiet questioning – the eyes that he fixed on his Servant showed other emotions for the first time.

It was a rage seemingly close to boiling over.


The sound of car exhaust disturbed the silence of dawn. Then, the small truck that Hisau Maiya drove entered the yard of the abandoned factory with bright headlights on. She should be here to take Kiritsugu back to Shinto after concluding her duty as a sniper.

Kiritsugu took his eyes off Saber and walked towards the small truck, not even turning around, and opened the passenger side door. Saber was still speaking to his back. There was something that she had to say no matter what.

“Kiritsugu… do you understand? If you commit evil due to your hatred of evil, at the end all that’s left will be evil. The rage and hatred that sprouted forth there will cause new wars once again.”

Faced with Saber’s heavy words, it was as if Kiritsugu had the intention to reply for the first time and wanted to turn around – however, he changed his mind at last, and said while staring at the empty air.

“I will stop the endless cycles. That’s why I need the Holy Grail.”

Indeed, as if talking to himself, he said loudly.

“I’ll use this miracle to complete the revolution of this world, the revolution of all human souls. I will make the blood shed within Fuyuki city as the final bloodshed of all human beings.

For that, even if I am to carry ‘all the evils of this world’ – it won’t matter. If that can save the world, then I’d gladly accept it.”

“…”

Kiritsugu spoke the decision in his heart with such a calmness and evenness that even Saber could not find any words to reply to him.

Even if his method and path were unendurably evil – his faith in seeking the Holy Grail was pure and selfless. She had to admit that if there was a Master in the war worthy of obtaining the Holy Grail, then he would undoubtedly be Emiya Kiritsugu.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That's actually one of the few things I'm disappointed with in Kayneth's demise, the fact that there wasn't any confrontation between him and his foil since their quick exchange back in the battle at the harbor. Their elitism/conservatism vs hard-work-can-overcome-bloodline feud could have been pretty interesting and a good addition to the major theme of the way the magus world functions in Fate, and it might have been particularly interesting to see Kayneth appear before his cheeky student after being reduced to that wheelchair, but I guess we'll never know now.

I will have to disagree. It would have been bland and boring since Waver would have lost. What Kayneth said in the first episode about magi is true. Waver may be talented and smart but a big part of a magus' power is his/her family crest. Not to mention Waver is still learning. If they fought, they would have had a chance only because of Rider's NP. Waver would have stood there, doing nothing... as usual. And that is IF Rider was able to start his RM. Kayneth probably would have went for Waver the second the light turned green.

Also, I believe Waver is the audience in this series which is why I hope and expect him to survive after much Gen grief.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.

Iri is still behind him, just a bit shocked. Plus, she was a little annoyed that Kiritsugu wouldn't talk to her girlfriend face-to-face.

[Wandering_Youth]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

Is Maya's knife really that strong? Strong enough to cut someone's arm off like that in one swoop?

Well not in one strong strike, you can cut off a person's arm fairly easily if you know what you're doing.

It's not really about strength, it's about technique and precision. Any butcher or chef that butchers their own meat knows how easy it is to separate bones and limbs once you found the joint liagament connnecting everything.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I will have to disagree. It would have been bland and boring since Waver would have lost. What Kayneth said in the first episode about magi is true. Waver may be talented and smart but a big part of a magus' power is his/her family crest. Not to mention Waver is still learning. If they fought, they would have had a chance only because of Rider's NP. Waver would have stood there, doing nothing... as usual. And that is IF Rider was able to start his RM. Kayneth probably would have went for Waver the second the light turned green.

Also, I believe Waver is the audience in this series which is why I hope and expect him to survive after much Gen grief.

I don't think it's ever that simple with the Holy Grail War that you can predict with absolutely certainty what will happen between two Masters. And you'll notice I suggested Waver come across wheelchair Kayneth, who wouldn't even be able to challenge him to a fight. And, more importantly, a confrontation doesn't necessarily equate to a fight either. In fact, I would probably be more interested in an ideological debate when it comes to those two, rather than any sort of action sequence. But oh well, that chance is gone now, so no point in dwelling on it.

And just because Waver is the closest thing we've got to a participant the average viewer can relate to doesn't mean he should remain safely uninvolved throughout the entirety of the series. I don't wish any excessive grief on him, but I certainly don't want him to simply stay hidden and tucked away under Rider's wing throughout the remainder of the war. That would be a disservice to a character with a lot of potential for quality development.