Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[Kageitenshi]

I don't hate people, I just hate some of the things they do, is what I usually say. Though without empathy it's worth nothing to begin with, I just act as if it was

[the.Merines]

Just remember the real reason for all the problems in Rozen Maiden- Jun's parents.

Seriously, where the heck are they?

[aeriolewinters]

But really, Ouverture has really polarized the fanbase. No matter what we say, a rift between the extremist Gin fans and the Shinku fans is sure to happen...

Surely enough, I wish that there be peace on the forum... x_x

[klinton]

Originally Posted by the.Merines

we all have problems with Shinku

That right there is the core of my initial entrance into this topic (over in the images thread). I don't have problems with Shinku. Of all the Rozen Dolls...she is the only one I who I would keep company with, were these real people. The other dolls are all somehow flawed: Suiseiseki is a thief and a liar who torments Hina; Hina is whiny and needy; Kana is a bumbling idiot; Souseiseki is rash and easily blinded by dogma; Souigintou maybe driven by personal demons...but is a cruel and vengeful being none the less. Shinku is what...not careful with her words?

[aeriolewinters]

Shinku is what...not careful with her words?

Remember the quote "The pen is mightier than the sword.".

Words weigh very hard, it can be a root of conflict... Words can be a catalyst for actions...from a simple arguement to a full-scale war...

Remember Marie Antoinette? Or more recently, Mashiro Blan de Windbloom

And please don't judge the person/doll by one action alone. All of them are dynamic... not static.. That's the main reason I got hooked.

[Suiseiseki]

Originally Posted by the.Merines

Just remember the real reason for all the problems in Rozen Maiden- Jun's parents.

Seriously, where the heck are they?

Eating french fries with mayonnaise in Holland perhaps? Actually they're away on business. Parents leave their kids home alone for months at a time in the U.S. would get them prison time for child abuse. Hmmm... perhaps the reason Nori is so incestuous toward Jun is that she's forced to act as a adult and views Jun as her husband?

Originally Posted by klinton

That right there is the core of my initial entrance into this topic (over in the images thread). I don't have problems with Shinku. Of all the Rozen Dolls...she is the only one I who I would keep company with, were these real people. The other dolls are all somehow flawed: Suiseiseki is a thief and a liar who torments Hina; Hina is whiny and needy; Kana is a bumbling idiot; Souseiseki is rash and easily blinded by dogma; Souigintou maybe driven by personal demons...but is a cruel and vengeful being none the less. Shinku is what...not careful with her words?

Correction: Suiseiseki is love... and the female version of Autolycus (the Xena: Warrior Princess version).

Shinku behaves like the other dolls are immature, even though she herself is immature as evidence by her obsession to everything Kun Kun. Plus, she expects the others to behave themselves at all times. She's demanding as evidence by her need to have the perfect tea ALL THE TIME!

Still hating Souseiseki for wanting to kill Desu.

[Kageitenshi]

Darned, connection was so choked up that I didn't get this edit posted before there were too many posts for it...

"If your opinion isn't worth dying for, you shouldn't be defending it anyway"

Even if opinions don't get anyone actually killed (at least not on this forum) people still die with them, just what will be written on their tombstone remains to be seen. I've never been good with opinions, since mine tend to end up with a dozen different points of view "on the other hand, if we think of it this way..." Not being indecisive, just no point in defending something I don't fully agree with. I didn't even stand up to "defend" Nightbat®'s opinion, just went on to point out a few things, asked for a few clarifications and caused a couple misunderstandings...

Back to topic

How I got hooked up on Rozen Maiden was quite simple, was checking out high-rated anime on anidb and there was RM, thought it might be interesting, just like most of the 160 other anime titles I've managed to collect and bling! Cute, funny, has a dark side to it, evolving characters what else do I need. Watched the whole thing in one night and loved it. How I eventually found animesuki was by looking for fan art, but for some reason before finding the RM Träumend thread, I hadn't thought of actually joining.

I'm quite happy with the way the characters are, despite not really liking Kanaria for having very little charm and all, I even like Barasuishou more. All the characters have features I dislike as well, but not being strongly opinionated and not being able to get emotionally attached to any one person or character ever anywhere, I haven't thought of it as a bad thing, just part of their personality and charisma. Just because I can actually relate to Gin-sama more than to the other characters, she's become my favorite, next to Suiseiseki DESU! and Shinku. If I were to be asked for a hard opinion I'd have to go with school ratings for their different personality traits and clothing, something I haven't done yet

I don't think Ouvertüre should even be used as something to judge either Shinku or Gin-sama... or Rozen for that matter. How many of you read a history book and start rationalizing what should, could, have been done or left undone anyhow? But where's the fun in not doing so.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But really, Ouverture has really polarized the fanbase. No matter what we say, a rift between the extremist Gin fans and the Shinku fans is sure to happen...

Surely enough, I wish that there be peace on the forum... x_x

kinda reminds me of the shuffle thread

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

I don't think Ouvertüre should even be used as something to judge either Shinku or Gin-sama... or Rozen for that matter. How many of you read a history book and start rationalizing what should, could, have been done or left undone anyhow? But where's the fun in not doing so.

problem is that rozen is always gonna be judged for being an irresponsible bastard unless we get to hear his side of the story ~

[Kageitenshi]

Unfair, but life is....

Why not try and change the world while at it instead of casting judgement based on ideals and things that just can't be changed by passive onlookers with nothing but opinions and no real connection to the events. Like people proliferating like a cancer in third world countries even if they know their children have very little chance of living past their first year due malnutrition, disease etc. Drug addicts, rape victims, the list goes on, it's something that we can't see and doesn't affect us directly, so it's out of our minds, or disregarded as something that we see and hear every day in the news, who cares anyhow? Show us the Rozen Maidens and we cast judgement on their creator because of what we actually can see. They have it all better than many children born these days. They're also actually quite mature, so one can't say that it'd be like having children and raising them without parents. Yet Rozen is being judged by the less fortunate events that are only related to him because he's the creator, the father, the god figure, whatever. The dolls are quite happy, they can decide for themselves and have come to the point where they rather live together as sisters, they really are quite well off as they are aren't they? We can't even ever find out if Rozen actually is the one to make the dolls fight each other to begin with, we don't know if he's even able to do anything about anything and thus not interfering until the very end... not until perhaps season 3.

What are humans anyway but a sentient cancer anyhow? We just have this wierd personality disorder that makes us forget about a couple facts. First we're animals, second, we're not better off with being intelligent than our average dog, not the least because we're consuming more natural resources than any other life form, but we've actually overcome natural selection and as such have started a chain of events that will eventually lead to the extinction of far too many species that support the ecosystem. Not something our tree-dwelling ancestors would have done. The superior species huh... feel free to judge those who are active in causing all this misfortune, just like you're judging Rozen for the outcome of creating the dolls. But there's those who will judge you for not doing anything about anything, and when it comes to Rozen Maiden, all you can do is sit and watch and judge? Who wants the responsibility?

At least the Rozen Maidens are being given a second chance, and this is no GANTZ... Your life is over you bastards, what you do with your new lives is up to me.

Let the one who has done no sin cast the first stone, you irresponsible bastards! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! Uhhh I mean FUFUfuFUfufu~ufufufufu....

[the.Merines]

Originally Posted by klinton

That right there is the core of my initial entrance into this topic (over in the images thread). I don't have problems with Shinku. Of all the Rozen Dolls...she is the only one I who I would keep company with, were these real people. The other dolls are all somehow flawed: Suiseiseki is a thief and a liar who torments Hina; Hina is whiny and needy; Kana is a bumbling idiot; Souseiseki is rash and easily blinded by dogma; Souigintou maybe driven by personal demons...but is a cruel and vengeful being none the less. Shinku is what...not careful with her words?

Shinku has an exceedingly high opinion of herself, and she isn't afraid to speak what's on her mind. A know a LOT of people with these two symptoms, and in general they are assholes who only act this way to seem stronger than they really are. Yes, I talk with them and tolerate their self-love, but they are not my friends. Not to say that Shinku is someone I wouldn't enjoy being around, but that hard outer shell she puts around herself would put off most people who don't want to stick around and see that she's really a sweetie.

Suigintou has and always will be my favorite, but I like Kanaria. However, I don't get all up in arms when someone bashes her. It's only the internet, and I'm satisfied with the enjoyment I get from this entertainment.

[Blablabla]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But really, Ouverture has really polarized the fanbase. No matter what we say, a rift between the extremist Gin fans and the Shinku fans is sure to happen...

Surely enough, I wish that there be peace on the forum... x_x

And you know what ? I have the feeling that Ouverture's goal what actually the opposite, by showing the main point of Rozen Maiden's tragedy not only on Gin's side (sure, it's easier to find the poor crying Gin more kind than the evil prideful Shinku). They were all right and wrong at the same time (Gin only saw her own pain but refused to understand Shinku's feelings).
As I've already said, the only doll who was on the right path from the begining was -Desu (maybe Kana and Inaichi, too), and the only evil one is Rozen.

[npal]

You mean, you are not friends with someone you can actually turn to be really good because he thinks highly of himself and prefer for your friend someone who is vengeful, full of hatred, obsessed and ruthless, willing to destroy whatever is in her way to get what she wants (as of Season 1)?

I find this modern notion of liking pure villains disturbing, or is it any doubt that Suigintou was a true villain in Season 1?.

Gin becomes likeable to me only because she has shown a glipse of change in Season 2 and because of who she WAS in Ouverture (and because, in the end, it's Rozen's fault and not hers for turning out like that).
Shinku helped Gin in the first place, Shinku was the first to apologize for the "junk" incident, Shinku was shown countless times as being caring DESPITE thinking highly of herself, yet people still bash her.

[Kageitenshi]

Rozen's still evil, Gin's still full of hatred and actually liking her makes others evil as well? What drives you into saying all this is none other than hatred towards these two character is it not? The very least you're driven to such passionate defense over your point of view out of none other than feelings. what makes you any better than they are?

I'll spill the beans, I like being disturbing. Not having any feelings to drive a person, there's nothing much more than morbid curiosity and instant gratification left... Just finished watching Black Lagoon... I was laughing most of the time, I haven't had such a good laugh in ages, it was a thrill! Gantz was a bit too unreal to have this effect.

[aeriolewinters]

Shinku was shown countless times as being caring DESPITE thinking highly of herself, yet people still bash her.

What's not to be dissapointed about?

How would you feel if your girlfriend just chose you because she thinks of you as a poor man?

What Shinku did then was not "to care" . She pitied Gin. BUT THAT'S in the past!

Believe it or not, the instance on Ouverture, in relation to the events in Traumend redeemed Shinku for me.

There's a thick line between bashing the character, and bashing the actions of a character.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Rozen's still evil, Gin's still full of hatred and actually liking her makes others evil as well?

First of all, actually, yes, liking the villain is disturbing and I'm saying just that. And I was even kind to point out that there's a difference between Gin of S1, Gin of S2 and Gin of Ouverture and I specifically stated that I can sympathize with the latter, but apparently it went unheeded. Rozen's evil though, unless we get his side of the story, his actions speak volumes.

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

What drives you into saying all this is none other than hatred towards these two character is it not? The very least you're driven to such passionate defense over your point of view out of none other than feelings. That's why I prefer logic... what makes you any better than they are?

I fail to see the logic behind liking a villain before any redeeming qualities are given, other that sharing aspects of the villain, which is in itself disturbing. Secondly, Gin in the end of season 2 is not the same Gin of season one, and while I can't like her unconditionally, I can still sympathize with her for turning out like she did. Rozen's still evil, yes. And my logic teacher said that "logic is a weapon of your feelings". There's no point in arguing over something when either way is fine, but the right way to argue is through logic. Besides being driven by feelings ( I'm always been driven by feelings) what in my arguments was illogical without being purely subjective? I think I've already pointed out subjectivity and stopped argued about the related topics.

Yes, I'm unable to understand how you can like villains with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, like S1 Gin. What makes me better is the ability to actually comprehend why they sympathize with Gin as of S2 and Ouverture. So, while I can go around and see the point, that it really isn't Gin's fault for turning out like this, that Gin needs love and help, they fail to understand my point that neither is Shinku responsible for Gin turning out like she did. Is that clear enough?

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Don't get too conceited, some of us are actually true to ourselves and admit liking being perceived as the villain, neither of you are exactly defenders of justice either. That and you aren't being fair nor righteous, unless we consider self-righteousness to be such.

I'll spill the beans, I like being disturbing. Not having any feelings to drive a person, there's nothing much more than morbid curiosity and instant gratification left. Just about the only thing keeping me at bay is the fact that I prefer freedom over acting like Gin-sama does, I'm actually jealous for her being able to get away with it all... Just finished watching Black Lagoon... I was laughing most of the time, I haven't had such a good laugh in ages, it was a thrill! Gantz was a bit too unreal to have this effect.

Be proud then. It is a waste trying to argue this one. You have your belief and I have mine, and since you've turned it into a matter of belief, it's the end. Some of us are actually true to ourselves with liking nice things and a just world. If it's too hard to believe, don't. You opinion of me is irrelevant, thus unheeded. Whether it is valid or not, I'm not the one to decide.

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Tell you what, while somewhat frustrating to see people still defending their one-sided, self-righteous opinions, it is quite amusing, I'm having a good laugh. Oh dear, I admit it... I've done something to provoke this behavior, I'm such an evil person... hmmmmm, can't wait to see the next thing to be said in any of the following contexts, Rozen's evil, Gin's evil, Sui is the only good one, Shinku's bitch/good girl, or anything about how the dolls must have felt like in (insert situation here)... Unfortunately stating mere opinions doesn't change the world, you need something concrete, like actual indisputable evidence behind them to actually make an effect... it'll be boring if you go on stating these things all over again and again and again. Hypocrites are no fun, I dislike playing one for the sake of the amusement, but it ticks people off, which is quite enough to make up for it.

Since you have apparently missed the whole point of very long posts (I actually slept in the morning trying to argue on those) and since you think I have based my arguments on nothing but personal opinion and feeling, you are free to stop arguing, as I will stop arguing with you, for there's no point whatsoever. I think I've argued enough about why Shinku should be excused as Gin is excused by rights of the Ouverture. You may accept it, or you may not, that still doesn't invalid the fact that they were based on sound premises.

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Now then... I know what my problem is, so what's your major malfunction?

Sorry I don't have any serious psychopathologies besides being stupid enough to have ideals

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

What Shinku did then was not "to care" . She pitied Gin.

How would you feel if your girlfriend just chose you because she thinks of you as a poor man?

That's a totally different situation and a totally different relationship. The question should have been "How would you feel if your brother helped you because he thinks of you as a poor man?" If pity mobilizes people to do good, who cares? I'D WISH more people helped others, whether it was because of pity or not. When you see someone suffering, can you tell whether it's pity you're feeling or genuine empathy? As long as you go out of your way to help, who cares what you think if you do good? Can you sincerely claim that most people helping others don't do it out of pity? But even if it's pity, as long as you help any way you can, what you think shouldn't matter.

[Cinnabon-chan]

To Suiseiseki: I think the Kunkun obsession is what makes Shinku more lovable. the way she acts like a little madam and having no taste for frivilous things, yet she becomes a fangirl around Kunkun. It's nice to see that even though she's usually haughty and aristocratic, there are things that make her act like a little girl.



My opinions on the dolls in RM:


Hina, Bara and Kana were in it for a few seconds each. It felt more like they were thrown in to keep their fans from whining somewhat. So I feel very cheated. While i can see why Bara would not be in it, but I was annoyed that no real parts where written in for Hina and Kana.

While I feel Shinku's heart was in the right place, I think she went around it the wrong way. While she was the first character to actually show poor Gin any kindness, she also unintentially aggravated the situation as well, by not taking Sugintou seriously whens h e revealed her rosa mystica. However i do not think she deserved sugintou's hatred, or the destruction of her most treasured item, her brooch.

However, she was the character who cared the most for Gin, helping her walk,and trying to arrange a future safe from the Alice Game, from dolls like Soseiseki.

I think the doll who acted teh most cruel to Sugintou was Soseiseki. If anyone deserves the hatred towards Shinku is her. You notice Shinku helped Gin to walk, and tried to give her a future. Soseiseki simply ran towards a confused and defenceless doll and sliced her in half, and didn#t really bother to find out if she was a fit candiadte in the Alice Game.


I also would have liked a part written in for Kirakishou, even if it was only watching and plotting in the N-field. After all, she too was an unfinished product, and perhaps seeing Gin-sama rise froma broken doll to a true Rozen Maiden mgiht have inspired her.

I would like to see an epesode that shows why Kira is so obsessed with Gin, and i think ouverture could have had a minor part in showing that.

[aeriolewinters]

I'm unable to understand how you can like villains with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, like S1 Gin.

I'm now inclined to think that you might not like Anakin Skywalker...

You notice Shinku helped Gin to walk, and tried to give her a future.

Except that Shinku isn't Gilbert... and no God to decide a future.


But nonetheless, I rest now... Knowing that the debate still rages on... much like AAA vs KKK or Shinn vs Kira...

[Cinnabon-chan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

I'm now inclined to think that you might not like Anakin Skywalker...


Except that Shinku isn't Gilbert... and no God to decide a future...

I think if Shinku had just thrown out Gin and left her to rot, you would hate her more. The only one who showed Gin any kindness in ouverture was Shinku.

Sara: Tried to convince Shinku to kill her and take her rosa mystica.

Soseiseki: Ran up to her and cleaved her in two.

Rozen: Left Sugintou on a shelf, and only after a lot of misery on Gin's behalf, decided to give her a rosa mystica.

[aeriolewinters]

The only one who showed Gin any kindness in ouverture was Shinku.

One can only help, but for her to decide is wrong...


That's the difference between Lacus and Gilbert... Lacus Helps you gain a future, while Gilbert shoves it into your mouths.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by npal

I find this modern notion of liking pure villains disturbing, or is it any doubt that Suigintou was a true villain in Season 1?.

Gin becomes likeable to me only because she has shown a glipse of change in Season 2 and because of who she WAS in Ouverture (and because, in the end, it's Rozen's fault and not hers for turning out like that).
Shinku helped Gin in the first place, Shinku was the first to apologize for the "junk" incident, Shinku was shown countless times as being caring DESPITE thinking highly of herself, yet people still bash her.

i believe not so ~ even is S1 i actually did think about what makes gin hates shinku so much and why she was affected by the word "junk" ~ and right up to the very end i got the answer...so she was missing her middle part...and knowing that i found that shinku's name calling quite nasty as it really ment to hurt so even then i found myself attracted to gin out of pitty (somewat) but mostly cause i loved her personality and thought that there was more that what meets the eyes ~ at that time i did think that shinku's illogical name calling on her half was kinda childish but that was because i didnt know of the origin ~ ouverture cleared things up...so id say that saying gin is a villain is wrong...theres a hidden agenda not just blind fury...

basically what happenes between gin and shinku is something that we can actually experience in everyday life...i can remember a number of times when me and my mom had fallen out and it ended up with both of us ignoring each other for quite sometime or until one of us made a move to try and get the other to talk (usually its my mum cause i have a strong will ) so yea in this case it was shinku that gave way first and gradually the flame of hatred within gin begins to turn down...all she wanted was an apology from shinku which she got ~ now its her turn to say sorry about the broach so they can be sisters again ^__^

Originally Posted by npal

Since you have apparently missed the whole point of very long posts (I actually slept in the morning trying to argue on those) and since you think I have based my arguments on nothing but personal opinion and feeling, you are free to stop arguing, as I will stop arguing with you, for there's no point whatsoever. I think I've argued enough about why Shinku should be excused as Gin is excused by rights of the Ouverture. You may accept it, or you may not, that still doesn't invalid the fact that they were based on sound premises.

and this i agree...plz try to refrain from personal attacks into another's opinions and have a friendly discussion