2013-05-06, 19:34 | Link #121 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I am not nitpicking the word "rend away" at all. But it does not say "rend away" prevents regeneration, not "rend away" is the only effective way to deal severe damage. All the passage says is that you need to do severe damage to the nape of the neck to outpace the giant's regeneration in order to kill it, then proceeds to say use two blades. That does not mean 100 arrows does not do severe damage or will not work. It's not the case where only method that will work is "rending away", which seems to be your take away from this. Quote:
Why would it not exist since they have the tech level to produce it? They have explosive shells on the cannons, which is similar concept. Gun powder in cylindrical container with fuse attached to an arrow is an explosive arrow. Once the fuse gets to the gunpowder, it will create an explosion. Not as a big one as the explosive shells but you trade accuracy and numbers and being able to hit the weak area for it.
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2013-05-06, 19:43 | Link #122 |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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You are terribly terribly overestimating the accuracy of arrows at a distance, especially with the type of bows they'd be able to make with their technology. Bows were only effective when massed, and that was indiscriminate fire. You need extremely accurate shots to place them deep in the nape. How many arrows will that take? How much time per Titan? How many people needed to make those shots? And all the while more and more Titans just keep flooding in. And it's not even determined just what kind of damage is needed yet! For all we know the nape is just one massive bunch of stem cells which have to be all cut out at once. You could FILL them with arrows and as long as a few cells remain they will still regen. Seriously. No.
As for explosive arrows: the extra weight would slash the range even more. Do you realise just how big a gunpowder explosion would be need to be to erase that much area? Not just 'damage', but 'erase'? And you want to fit all that powder onto a primitive arrow?
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2013-05-06, 19:57 | Link #123 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Or perhaps... it's better to assume that something doesn't work if it was never said to work Quote:
Would it be logical for him to exclude that they die with blessed water? No. Because he knows nothing about vampires and he shouldn't assume that they are like humans. But it would be logical for him to assume that they don't. Quote:
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Look, I think you understand that you cannot rend away flesh using a single sword. You can cut, you can slice, you cannot rend. In order to rend you need to use two swords at the same time. Now here you just need to use your brain and ask yourself why is it that they need to use two swords and why he specifically said that they need to rend flesh away. And no, saying that it was the first thing that it crossed his mind doesn't cut it. There's also the training scene where you clearly see that they cut away entire pieces at once from the dummy titans. Surely there must be a reason. And there must be a reason if the drawing on the chalkboard specifically show that a chunk of meat was removed from the titan's neck. There's more than enough of evidence. Simply repeatedly slicing the Titans' neck wouldn't work. Because they would regenerate before you can slice them again. It wouldn't amount to anything. They need to deal a substantial damage all at once. And cutting away a chunk of meat in one strike is the only way to achieve that using blades. Is this the only system? No, because we also know that cannons were used in the past and they worked too albeit not very effectively. Again you can infer that a cannonball can deal substantial damage all at once at their nape with a proper shot. And yes if it's done well it can rend away part of their flesh. We know that these two methods work. Therefore we can assume than anything that can deal a comparable damage all at once at their neck will work too. But we cannot assume anything else.
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2013-05-06, 20:39 | Link #124 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I mean they obviously made certain assumption to come up with using two blades and not holy water. You have to start some where. Starting with since blade cut does injure titans, arrows also do makes perfect sense, while the logic of using holy water have no grounds. Quote:
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As for the range issue. The wall is only 50 M, even station on top and shooting down, the range is only 70 M or so at most 100M. That is close range for long bow since their max range is 200 - 300M. Even if you lose some range with explosive arrows you are still well within your bow's range. Primitive when they have explosive shells from cannons, when the earliest form of cannon that are invented several hundred years after explosive arrows in history?
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2013-05-06, 21:08 | Link #125 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: The Planet Earth
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Wow, this guy completely ignores the flaws stated by others and charges into the flaws of other arguments which he can rebuke.
Selective, selective, dude. 100 arrows concentrated on one titan. Need 100,000 to defeat a hundred. Choke point, you say? Well, let's go five years after the penetration of Wall Maria (FIVE years). Let's go with your plan and let the humans do that. They wait and wait and wait, stationed in their spots. No invasion for five years. Do you think they'll stay vigilant? Will the higher-ups keep thousands of human resources waste away in their posts 24/7, 7 days a week in anticipation for an attack that might not come for a long time or never at all? Then when they do attack... what does that mean for the archers? By then, the government must've relocated some, NOT ALL, of the archers so they can at least do some other menial task than sit around and do nothing all day, everyday. The titans begin pouring in, and no, you assume that the kick Mr. Colossal made was one titan in single file. Nope. That kick would've torn a big chunk out of the wall that it'd be more like 3 titans each. But let's go ahead with your "one titan" rule. So they kill every titan that comes in. Kill and kill and kill and kill. Wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows. Until they have none left. And there are still titans pouring in from the hole. What do they do? Go down and retrieve the arrows in the danger zone? What? Plus, as mentioned before, the creation of so many arrows is a complete waste of valuable resources that could be used for other things like building more houses and stuff. And no, when you opined explosive arrows, you rendered your argument implausible. Explosive arrows explode! What then happens to the wood and metal? Do they miraculously stay intact for people to recover? Don't even think for a second that each arrows (even explosive!) will be shot accurately or that the archers in question are so skilled that they can pull off the feats you're describing (one second per arrow? Dahell?). Not all soldiers have talent in long-range, you know. One other thing: How do you position 1000 archers in one spot? Oh and let's not forget that, if the humans go with your plan, they'd be stationing the majority of their archers on the wall, right? Because it's safe there and a 50 meter target down below is not so difficult for them, right (you mentioned before about the average distance of a shot arrow is in the 100 meter range or something)? What did the Mr. Colossal do after he kicked the gate? Oh right, he swiped his arm over the top of the wall! What does that make, oh say, a hundred or so archers dead. EDIT: Sorry, if I came off a little snappy. Not a morning person... Last edited by JamJackEvo; 2013-05-06 at 21:12. Reason: I was arguing like a child, so I added an apology. |
2013-05-06, 21:29 | Link #126 | |||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Else you could argue that it is possible to kill them using a single sword, which apparently isn't true. Just because an arrow can logically damage them, it doesn't mean that it would kill them. Quote:
exact wording: "Severe damage here (nape of neck) will prevent regeneration, and the Titan will die." Quote:
He says that you need to rend away their flesh, he shows that you need to rend away their flesh, they are trained to cut chunks of flesh away. And you say this is just my words. According to you they must do all that for fun and not for necessity. Quote:
In the only two cases that we know that it works, they are both instant damages. A cannonball straight to their nape, or a big enough chunk of flesh removed from their nape. This follows logically. Only severe damage can prevent them from regenerating, if you deal anything short of "severe damage" they will regenerate. A single arrow will not deal "severe damage". You can throw a second arrow but by the time you throw that second arrow the damage of the first will be already regenerated, because it wasn't "severe damage". Your only way to make it work with arrows is therefore to use enough of them at the same time to deal that severe damage. Quote:
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They can, but they must cause severe damage all at once. Because else it's not severe damage, and it will be regenerated before you can land the second shot.
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2013-05-06, 21:38 | Link #127 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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2013-05-06, 21:50 | Link #128 | |
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 34
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I keep it as simple as possible so it won't become a full blown study about system dynamics hence I only mentioned momentum. you can't read part that the number is all assumption part there? I thought you were mad because people don't read your post throuroughly. soldier speed using 3DMG aren't 5 as well, can be 50 or even more, 5 is just a number that I made up to prove a point what happen if 3DMG and arrow has the same speed from we have seen so far, It can leap several buildings within second (eps 1,3,5), faster than a horse (eps 3), heck it might be even be faster than the arrow you can argue that arrow is faster, but i doubt it's 50x faster than 3DMG to make up with minimum mass difference between those two and worst part about arrow is it couldn't move directly to the target
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2013-05-06, 21:51 | Link #129 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Holy shit man, arrows are retarded. It's not even about if they can kill Titans or not, or how many you would need, it's about Titans not killing you.
Titans WILL kill you if you have literally zero mobility, they go fast, they can jump, use their arms, step on you, tear buildings down, turn around so you don't even have a clear target, and most importantly appear en masse so that you can't bring them down all at once. There are even deviants who will dodge your arrows if they see them, let alone if they face you upfront and run at you. The system they have is probably one of the best they could have implemented with their technology, and against this specific type of foe. You'll see good soldiers using the 3DMG very soon, and you'll realize that it can be extremely effective. |
2013-05-06, 21:56 | Link #130 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 39
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you really need to stop now while you're ahead. actually, you're not ahead at all. so you need to just stop. In fact, I'm gonna have to put you on my ignore list, you're that annoying. |
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2013-05-06, 21:56 | Link #131 | ||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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A "Straw man" is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, which is what you are doing with your vampire and holy water examples.
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As for I am ahead or not, what does that got to do with anything? This is a discussion thread about the world and technology and I am giving what I consider a good case on what combat tactics and technology would have made sense given what they are facing. I have yet to see a convincing counter argument except for asking me to accept things as they are and make no assumptions.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:22. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting. |
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2013-05-06, 22:08 | Link #132 |
The Anime Maniac
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 37
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Well, sorry to say, sagara, but at any rate, arrows are just not feasible. And seriously? Reuse the arrows after the fight? And when exactly will the fight end? You are aware that there are a lot of titans, right? Sure, there's only one hole created, but what makes you think another hole won't be created? You are basing the fact that titans are entering through one hole. Yeah, the colossal and armored titans can easily create multiple holes, for all we know.
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2013-05-06, 22:08 | Link #133 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Deviants can see behind them? The system is probably implemented because the author wanted to make a cool impression of how they combat the titans and drive into home how hopeless the situation is. It not because it actually is practical or effective. Quote:
There are a lot of titans but they are not all right outside. Sooner or later the ones nearby will all die off trying to come in. How does 250k people even attempt to retake lost territory if there were unlimited number of titans out there? There obviously sufficient space between them that there ones far enough that won't be invading since they are far off and does not see the hole.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:23. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting. |
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2013-05-06, 22:15 | Link #134 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Yes, put the archers up the 50M wall. Between the ones that will be killed by the gigantic fella, the crappy archers that are bound to be the overwhelming majority, and the non-existence of a meat-shield amongst your military, I assure you that the civilians will have the time of their lives.
Perhaps you could even use them as bait! Make them group on a corner so that all the titans go in the same direction, making the job easier for them (and well, the slow, uncomplete killing of the archers). Two more things, but these are light-mild manga spoilers, so don't read if you don't want to: Spoiler for Technology from the manga:
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2013-05-06, 22:15 | Link #135 |
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 34
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hi guys, I think we agree that people already explained enough to him.
I even gave him a dynamics + physics point of view why blade + 3DMG is more efficient than arrow and he's still convinced that arrow is better and no good argument yet It's clear that he is just another case of Destined_Fate, old proverb said you can't teach an old dog this maybe another example of that case I'm done here and let him assume whatever he want
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2013-05-06, 22:27 | Link #136 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The kind of argument I used is the same as the "Russel teapot", and it isn't fallacious at all. Quote:
You: Holy water is not known to kill unless you are a vampire. Arrows however is known to kill. Me: Arrows are not known to kill a Titan anymore than blessed water is. You: How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us. Me: How do you know that blessed water is not known to kill titans? No where is that information been revealed to us. Now you say that it never was about "killing" but about "damaging"? I never used the example of the "blessed water" for anything that wasn't "killing them". And I never denied that arrows can damage titans, I deny that they can kill them. So no, sorry, killing is relevant here. Quote:
1) You are the one who is ignoring the "rend the flesh" part as if it was the only thing irrelevant 2) The last sentence does not deny in any way the first. Severe damage prevents regeneration (because it kills them). 3) It logically follows that if they die they cannot regenerate. If severe damage kills them, then severe damage also prevents them from regenerating. 4) What you infer from the last sentence is illogical. What you should actually infer is that you need to kill them before they have the time to regenerate. That means the only thing that can beat their regeneration rate is instant death. Quote:
Then you assume I'm saying what I never said, and that is a straw man.
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2013-05-06, 22:34 | Link #137 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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And arrow will move directly to the target if you aim and shoot behind them. Quote:
Blade are weapons, arrows are weapons. Blade does dmg to Titans, but they regenerate, arrows does dmg to titans, but they regenerate. Blade carve out a chunk from nape of neck from titan is severe enough damage that outpaces titan regeneration, 100 arrows puncture holes through titan nape is severe enough damage that outpaces titan regeneration. Thus, both kills Titans. You are false representing my position by comparing titan to vampire, using blades to beheading and arrows being just arrows when my position is that both blades and arrows are functionally killing the titan (i.e. beheading the vampire). There is straw man no 1. Next, holy water. My logic again is the same from first, Blade are weapons, arrows are weapons. Blade does dmg to Titans, but they regenerate, arrows does dmg to titans, but they regenerate. In order to make certain assumptions, you have to have basis to make them from. My assumption from arrows is based on the fact that arrows are in fact a weapon that can injure titan. Yet you use holy water when there are no basis that it can injure a titan. There is straw man no 2. Quote:
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2. I never said it deny the first. 3. By that logic, arrows also kills them. If they die they cannot regenerate. 4. No what I inferring is clearly you need to do damage faster then they can regenerate. And it is not true that instant death is the only way to beat their regeneration since they do not have instant regeneration. How about let's just see in future episodes that if this is the case. I am pretty sure that my interpretation is correct. Quote:
So you agree explosive arrows work? Using blades is not the only way or even the effective way? They should have archers instead of training these people for suicide melee combat? That sure is not the sense I get from arguing with you.
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2013-05-06, 23:01 | Link #138 | |
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 34
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about 3DMG speed, this image is more than enough eren movement against collosal isn't direct movement, there are a lot of circling and turn around (the hand, neck, etc) so it is not comparable since arrow can't do that right? not satisfied? I already put reference of other scenes that elaborate 3DMG speed in my previous post
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2013-05-06, 23:03 | Link #139 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Even if let's say you are right and blade is more efficient. What about human lives? what about the horrible exchange rate in order to kill a giant? Why would you not consider a tactic that does not throw bodies at titans even if it is somewhat less efficient? Are you even taking account for these factors or just wanted to prove that blade is more efficient then arrows? Quote:
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:23. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting. |
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