[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Erika sorts the people into rooms insomuch that she was the person who suggested it. It's said in the text that Hideyoshi did the actual seperating, while Erika spoke with Kradolf downstairs. Presumably, the husbands switched places even once more, since it's Rudolf who mentions "Jessica wants to stay in the same room as Krauss." At any rate, Erika herself does not personally split the people, according to both the text, and her assertion that she can only verify the people she saw in her own room, not both of them.

The text is vague, but conceded. Erika definitely sees everyone in the next room over. I suppose it doesn't actually specify she ever saw who was in the cousins' room, so that accounts for the possibility that lying about Kanon's very existence was part of the deception (but the adults, at least Krauss and Hideyoshi, have to be in on it). The name argument still holds though; it's possible to argue that the cousins' room was empty!

Anyway, there's a bigger problem here that I just noticed: Erika is the one who suggests putting Kanon in the cousins' room. Specifically, she suggests putting Genji and Gohda in the cousins' room as they are biggest threat, and Kanon because he is also male. There doesn't appear to be any logic provided whatsoever for Shannon being separated from Kanon other than that.

So... was that just pure luck? Granted, there are potentially ways Battler could've gotten around it (George refuses to be separated from Shannon, forcing Erika to make him swap places with Kanon, etc.), but it doesn't appear that he had any specific hand in it. Unless he was just banking on Erika separating the men and women... and I'm not sure why. I'm not sure it's "Battler wrote Erika's piece to do this" as Meta-Erika seems to be implying it was her idea. It's not fatal to Genius Battler, but it means he'd have to have done something entirely different to set up the Logic Error solution because it wouldn't have worked without that particular separation.

[GuestSpeaker]

I just noticed something I had completely glossed over last time, in Ep 8's intro (manga), Ange says that she is "caught in this loop with my life at stake" and it shows pics from both ep 4 and 6 versions of her story. I wonder if this means something important (not in terms of her really being in a time loop, but how we are meant to interpret it all)

[DokEnkephalin]

Who would've played the part of Gaap in the 'real' world analogue? Maria interacted with her the same as Ronove (Genji) and Virgilia (Kumasawa); even Sakuturo was present as a stuffed toy. It would have to be someone who's been around as long since Yasu started working on the island, and it would have to be someone Beatrice would have some influence over in 1986.

Perhaps it was Jessica and she knew Beatrice was the real heir having solved the epitaph, which would be a relief to her since she didn't want the succession. Or, if you believe the original Shannon was just a figment, then Gaap may also have no analogue in existence, and was played by Gaap. Or maybe it's some object like Sakuturo that I've overlooked, a doll that stayed in Yasu's possession perhaps.

[Renall]

Well, what were the Stakes? We know what their vessels are, but did Maria actually have them around or did she just imagine them? It's not exactly necessary that every magic character conform to an existing person, just that any new person who chooses to play with Maria and Beatrice may need a character to play as.

In other words, Virgilia and Ronove follow Kumasawa and Genji choosing to participate in playing with Maria, not the other way around where Maria or Beatrice has a preassigned role and needs to give it to someone. It would also be easier to make sense of Gaap shifting identities if she weren't based on an actual person; Beatrice could just mention a "friend of hers" and Maria could decide who that friend is.

Granted, Jessica doing it would certainly be interesting, but that raises more questions than it answers.

[DokEnkephalin]

Yeah, it's not strictly necessary, but having a physical analogue would fortify character integrity for Yasu, Beatrice and Maria. It could be Beatrice playing the role, since Gaap originally was Beatrice, but she's already multiple-personality overloaded, and that may be enough to shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (not to mention mine.)

EDIT: Btw, what questions does this raise regarding Jessica? I think there are answers that make Jessica's behavior make more sense as someone who lives in daily proximity to Shannon and Kanon.

[Renall]

If Maria can play Sakutarou I don't see why Beatrice can't play Gaap. Or at least talk about her like she's around.

The Jessica thing is mostly if she's aware that Yasu is Beatrice how the hell is she not aware that Yasu is also Kanon, and how does that entire relationship between the two of them color the way everything else would play out between them. If Jessica's palling around with Maria and Yasu and knows about the whole Beatrice thing it solves some issues like her apparent foreknowledge of Kinzo's death, but it makes her relationship with Kanon seem implausible at best and strictly a mutual fantasy at worst.

[DokEnkephalin]

Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.

And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.

And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.

Indeed, Isn't it a little odd that Jessica knew about Shannon's relationship to George? George, would presumably be trying to hide the relationship from the family members, etc. So there already was that closeness between Jessica and Shannon.

It wouldn't be odd, in fact very plausible to suggest she knew the truth about Yasu, Beatrice, etc.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.

The vessel doesn't talk. Maria controls an inanimate object which she pretends is Sakutarou. There's a difference between an object vessel like him who all participants merely acknowledge is a separate character and a person vessel who everyone pretends is a different person, like Genji being the demon Ronove.

The argument is, does Gaap have a vessel, and if she does is it an object or a person? We've never seen any evidence to suggest that Gaap has an object vessel, but that doesn't automatically mean that we must conclude she has a person for a vessel. For example, Gaap could have a conceptual vessel; since she's essentially the notion of pranks and missing objects, it sounds to me more like a running joke among the fantasy participants that whenever something goes missing or some odd thing happens, that it's Beatrice's friend Gaap causing mischief. There's no reason to believe it's anything else unless we have some strong textual evidence that she's associated with a thing or a person specifically.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.

Would she develop a sincere romantic attraction to her, and Kanon back toward her? Because the conflict between Jessica, Battler, and George is kind of rigged if two are semi-serious and one is just goofing around. It stretches credibility. It's also nonsensical and strange and surely it would concern her as Shannon's friend.

If your argument is "she did know Shannon is Beatrice, but didn't know Shannon is Kanon," it's workable, but it isn't terribly believable. In this situation Jessica would know that her friend is capable of pretending to be somebody else and maybe has even shown up now and then in a costume or disguise. If someone claiming to be close to Shannon (whom Shannon has never mentioned before) suddenly shows up, don't you think she'd be at least a little bit suspicious that it's her prank-playing magic-pretending friend playing a prank on her? Jessica's a bit dense, but she's not stupid.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Renall

The vessel doesn't talk. Maria controls an inanimate object which she pretends is Sakutarou. There's a difference between an object vessel like him who all participants merely acknowledge is a separate character and a person vessel who everyone pretends is a different person, like Genji being the demon Ronove.

As far as we know, in one consistent history, the vessel is merely a sock puppet. If that were ever in doubt, the fact that some of the lines said by Sakurtaro would be less likely for his demonstrated character than for Maria's demonstrated character would cast it into question. It's still a fact that in any demonstrated consistent histories, the vessel exists.

Originally Posted by Renall

The argument is, does Gaap have a vessel, and if she does is it an object or a person? We've never seen any evidence to suggest that Gaap has an object vessel, but that doesn't automatically mean that we must conclude she has a person for a vessel. For example, Gaap could have a conceptual vessel; since she's essentially the notion of pranks and missing objects, it sounds to me more like a running joke among the fantasy participants that whenever something goes missing or some odd thing happens, that it's Beatrice's friend Gaap causing mischief. There's no reason to believe it's anything else unless we have some strong textual evidence that she's associated with a thing or a person specifically.

Maria's interaction with Gaap indicates there is a vessel that she and everyone playing along with her addresses as if it were animate and sapient.

Originally Posted by Renall

Would she develop a sincere romantic attraction to her, and Kanon back toward her? Because the conflict between Jessica, Battler, and George is kind of rigged if two are semi-serious and one is just goofing around. It stretches credibility. It's also nonsensical and strange and surely it would concern her as Shannon's friend.

Of course Jessica wasn't serious, she knew Shannon and Kanon were there every day, swapping personalities, saying what she wanted to hear when she wanted to hear it; occasionally saying what she needed to hear when she needed to hear it. Then she realized that George was serious, and that because of his serious intent, he could take SKanon away from her.

Originally Posted by Renall

If your argument is "she did know Shannon is Beatrice, but didn't know Shannon is Kanon," it's workable, but it isn't terribly believable. In this situation Jessica would know that her friend is capable of pretending to be somebody else and maybe has even shown up now and then in a costume or disguise. If someone claiming to be close to Shannon (whom Shannon has never mentioned before) suddenly shows up, don't you think she'd be at least a little bit suspicious that it's her prank-playing magic-pretending friend playing a prank on her? Jessica's a bit dense, but she's not stupid.

No, my argument is that she knew Shannon is Kanon, and whether she also knew they were Beatrice is only marginally pertinent. She fell in love with Yasu from the beginning, and played with her. She just didn't seriously realize that until George was there to challenge her for Shannon.

EDIT: Let me retract that a bit; Jessica liked Yasu from the beginning. I don't know when Jessica fell in love with her, but she didn't realize it until George made it a competition for her affection.

[DokEnkephalin]

This is one of those things that "without love, it can't be seen" but put it in perspective:

Jessica was in love with Shannon around the time Jessica needed a guy, and Jessica's council to Shannon on how to get one just made Jessica want one even more.

Yasu is very good at being all things to all people, even herself. She was so irresistible to Jessica that Jessica was as fooled as Jessica wanted to be.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Maria's interaction with Gaap indicates there is a vessel that she and everyone playing along with her addresses as if it were animate and sapient.

The stakes are addressed as if they were sapient, but they demonstrably aren't. There is exhaustive evidence that they are merely objects. That Maria (and Ange) can converse with them doesn't seem to be any sort of problem.

Nevermind that Gaap and Jessica are almost nothing alike: Gaap is sexual and forward, Jessica is nervous and inexperienced; Gaap is fashionable, Jessica actually wants to move out so she can start dressing like a slob; Gaap kicks, Jessica punches. I mean, come on now. Gaap doesn't even make sense as an ideal that Jessica aspires to, because Jessica doesn't aspire to those things. She wants to be independent and act like she wants and maybe have a boyfriend, not be some flashy promiscuous type.

It doesn't seem like a role that would fit her too well.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Renall

The stakes are addressed as if they were sapient, but they demonstrably aren't. There is exhaustive evidence that they are merely objects. That Maria (and Ange) can converse with them doesn't seem to be any sort of problem.

There is so much exhaustive evidence that stakes and stuffed lions are objects and the one-winged servants are just people that to point it out belabors some points and misses others entirely. You may reject the fantasy characters that they're analogues of; but that fails to dismiss the questions their archetypes ask.

Originally Posted by Renall

Nevermind that Gaap and Jessica are almost nothing alike: Gaap is sexual and forward, Jessica is nervous and inexperienced; Gaap is fashionable, Jessica actually wants to move out so she can start dressing like a slob; Gaap kicks, Jessica punches.

Sounds reasonable. So would you insist that they're less alike than Gengi and Ronove?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

There is so much exhaustive evidence that stakes and stuffed lions are objects and the one-winged servants are just people that to point it out belabors some points and misses others entirely. You may reject the fantasy characters that they're analogues of; but that fails to dismiss the questions their archetypes ask.

What the hell does any of that even mean and how does it relate to my refutation of your argument that Gaap must have a human vessel? Because you've presented no actual evidence that demonstrates it, just interpretations or vague hints. The actual evidence of Gaap's origins and nature suggest that she is based on neither a person nor an object. And since Maria and Beatrice are playing pretend, this is not really an obstacle to her ability to participate.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Sounds reasonable. So would you insist that they're less alike than Gengi and Ronove?

There is information in ep6 and some of the manga to suggest that Ronove is closer to the way Genji acts when he's not being serious than you'd think.

[GuestSpeaker]

There certainly is evidence for that.

Even though he is always said to be the utmost in professional of servants, I do seem to remember someone saying that even he slacks off in the break room when no-one is around. Plus, there is him encouraging Kanon to go play in his time off in ep 1.

ALSO, you know from all those cookie references that he used to bake cookies for Maria and Yasu (And potentially even Kinzo, though I doubt that scene with Chibi-beato and Battler is actually meant to show that. If anything, he probably taught her how to bake)

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Let us surpass Lady Erika in the 5th game, the riddle with the Envelope and the Knock.

The solution is openly hinted at, in that Lambda-Sama didn't rule out those outside the mansion for either the knock or the envelope.

It's easy enough to say One of the adults, Nanjo or Kuwasawa take your pick (or even George) left the aforementioned group(that was going to the Guesthouse) for just a second with a convenient excuse and slid the envelope through the shaft then knocked on the door.

Lambda-Sama's "trick" is a very basic one: You'd have to assume that George-tachi actually MADE it to the Guesthouse during the time the letter and the knock were made.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Let us surpass Lady Erika in the 5th game, the riddle with the Envelope and the Knock.

The solution is openly hinted at, in that Lambda-Sama didn't rule out those outside the mansion for either the knock or the envelope.

It's easy enough to say One of the adults, Nanjo or Kuwasawa take your pick (or even George) left the aforementioned group(that was going to the Guesthouse) for just a second with a convenient excuse and slid the envelope through the shaft then knocked on the door.

Lambda-Sama's "trick" is a very basic one: You'd have to assume that George-tachi actually MADE it to the Guesthouse during the time the letter and the knock were made.

There was no knock at all! The letter was openly brought there on the table by someone. Although now that I think about it... did Erika even see that letter once? Maybe it doesn't exist either...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

There was no knock at all! The letter was openly brought there on the table by someone. Although now that I think about it... did Erika even see that letter once? Maybe it doesn't exist either...

It is not unlikely that there was a letter, at least for the context of that game's mystery narrative, but it was probably openly brought to the table by a servant or Battler and then the story around it's arrival was created to corner not necessarily Erika but Krauss and Natsuhi.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

There was no knock at all!

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

This references to whether or not an alternative sound was created, that could replicate a knock. Lambda-Sama ruled that out.

But I propose to extend the meaning to say that no one would hear a 'knocking sound' that never existed.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

This references to whether or not an alternative sound was created, that could replicate a knock. Lambda-Sama ruled that out.

But I propose to extend the meaning to say that no one would hear a 'knocking sound' that never existed.

That is exactly what I was saying... it is similar to the solution of EP2TL1. Basically: The scene where people were claiming to hear a knocking sound was a lie, just like the magic battle in EP3 between Beato and Virgillia was a lie and just like the door in EP2TL1 was never locked.