(L) Black Lagoon: The Second Barrage

[Skane]

I was going to sleep first, then come back to this thread the next day, but I think I better post now before I forget some of my thoughts.
~~~~ ~~~~

I do not think that the episode is asking us to forgive the twins. It is instead, asking us to ponder over the reality that humans can stoop so low as to produce the environment that the twins( and their ilk) suffered.

The twins merely represent that tragedy. Representative avatars if you will.

If you solely focus on the deeds that the twins committed, then you are not seeing the whole picture; because their deeds alone is not what the tragedy is all about. Nobody in the episode is questioning Hotel Moscow's decision to rub them off. What they were angsting about are the reasons that brought about the situation in the first place.

The environment very much exists in real life. That, is the scary thing.

Cheers.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by Skane

I do not think that the episode is asking us to forgive the twins. It is instead, asking us to ponder over the reality that humans can stoop so low as to produce the environment that the twins( and their ilk) suffered.

That's a very interesting idea, but, as I've mentioned before, that "reality" is too vague and uncertain. It's somewhere out there, producing some abstract evnironment that in turn somehow creates people like the twins.

You see my point? "Somewhere", "abstract", "somehow"?

This terrible reality is presented in this episode as just an idea, while the twins are "here and now" and are being exculpated as we speak.

What you say is certainly true, but, in my opinion, the creators somewhat failed to present it in a wholly believable manner. Too much attention is given to how scarred the twins are, not enough attention to what exactly produced them. Gretel's flashback was not convincing to me.

But you do raise a good point with which I happen to agree. I just wish it really was made a central theme of the episode, instead of just an afterthought.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

What you say is certainly true, but, in my opinion, the creators somewhat failed to present it in a wholly believable manner. Too much attention is given to how scarred the twins are, not enough attention to what exactly produced them. Gretel's flashback was not convincing to me.

i agree with that...even tho it was hinted a bit how they were brought up we werent told the whole picture...but...isnt that wht our imaginations are for? dnt really need to be told everything to get the gist of it...

[warainagara]

I haven't read recent posts enough to give my opinion because I have no time now.
But I think I agree with Skane.
The twins are there because they are a facet of reality.
And Black Lagoon does not attempt to affect the audience' judgment.
It just presents a reality and how the characters are done in the world where the merciless rule of revenge works beyond all.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mgz

wheeeeee

and the overated Italians La Nostra Costra is getting smoke, vive le KGB and Triads . It is strange that Mr Chan car is not bullet proof O,o

No car is truely bulletproof. Especially against a BAR.

[[DOT].L]

@MrProhpet -
Mmm... To put it bluntly, you're expecting too much out of Black Lagoon. BL was never intended to be a series heavy on philosophical content or analytical value. Hiroe is no Conrad; nor does he pretend to be through the creation of Black Lagoon. At its core, it's simply a well-executed action/adventure manga that makes references to less known international situations and North American pop-culture (well, maybe subculture is a better word, but hell, I'm no anthropologist). By taking it for what it is without expecting things that were never meant to be there in the first place would problably make you more content with the series than you are right now.

[MrProphet]

It was not I who was expecting it. It was the comments of my fellow posters here which lead me to believe that there is more to the story than just a fun-loving action adventure.

In reply to those comments, I stated that if that was true, then BL was coming somewhat short in this department.

Additionally, I want to add that while the first season of Black Lagoon certainly was everything that you've described it as, the first arc of the second season was different. I believe many posters have mentioned it before. The mood, the atmosphere, the pacing - all these things were slightly altered. While it may be just a short phenomenon (several episodes of the Nazi arc also seemed rather pessimistic, if not overly so), it's also true that this specific arc about the twins raised very interesting questions that other arcs glossed over in order to provide more flashbang action.

[Mgz]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

What I firmly disagree with is the message it is trying to send us somewhat blatantly.

I think because of it, it makes this eps more memorable, and indeed it is a good eps...

[michiru]

It was a sad and beautiful story.
They might have had another happy life like this picture.
http://dat.2chan.net/18/src/1161105642778f3d5.jpg

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

It's not a matter of "attention", pal. It's a matter of interpretation.

If you have an opinion regarding the moral of this story, then feel free to enlighten the thread.



I don't.

Spoiler for My views about the episode:

I do feel sorry for the fact that "young girls and boys" are exploited like that. However, I don't feel sorry for sadistic murderers whose only explanation is: "It's those evil adults who made us monsters!". The fact that evil was done to them does not... should not... explain away the evil they have wrought themselves.

You see, in my opinion, this episode was specifically constructed in such a manner as to force the viewer feel oh so sorry for the twins. "Oh, Gretel is such a beautiful singer, I guess she isn't so baaad after all". "Oh, it's so sad that she saw the blue sky in the end".

Woopdy-doo-da! Bring out the handkerchiefs!

Those are all artistic methods used to present the story in a different light and to constrast it with the gruesomeness of episode #13. We are supposed to rethink our opinion of the twins and absorbe the "moral" which I was talking about earlier. It's like a conditioned reflex! "Oh, she is so cute, so let's forget that she is a massmurderer". Sure, the twins were themselves conditioned by their environment. However, we are not offered a manifestation of that environment, the story doesn't point a finger at the culprit, it just exonerates the twins. Thus, nobody is seemingly to blame. It's some fuzzy "society" somewhere out there. The twins are perfectly harmless.

Artistic methods like that, in my opinion, confuse the hard facts, create a moral ambiguity where there should be none.

Again, in my opinion, there is a difference between condemning that which made the twins into monsters and the whitewashing of the twins themselves. Those two are not equal. I felt like the episode was throroughly trying to whitewash Hansel and Gretel. And that is simply wrong.

Just to make it all clear: I loved the episode. It was dramatic, poignant, touching and well-animated. It was one of the better ones that Black Lagoon has offered. What I firmly disagree with is the message it is trying to send us somewhat blatantly.

I totally agree with you i dont like th message its sending and yes it is sending a message but the message is open for interprtation. Not everyone sees the world in the same light. I do feel bad for the twins that they were exploited but forgiveness for sins is in the eye of the beholder. For example if they had killed a family member of mine maybe i couldnt forgive them but someone who didnt lose anyone could. Its how read the message and you choose to view what the artiest is trying to say we cant say because we are not him we can only give what we ourselves have gotten out of it

Originally Posted by Skane

I was going to sleep first, then come back to this thread the next day, but I think I better post now before I forget some of my thoughts.
~~~~ ~~~~

I do not think that the episode is asking us to forgive the twins. It is instead, asking us to ponder over the reality that humans can stoop so low as to produce the environment that the twins( and their ilk) suffered.

The twins merely represent that tragedy. Representative avatars if you will.

If you solely focus on the deeds that the twins committed, then you are not seeing the whole picture; because their deeds alone is not what the tragedy is all about. Nobody in the episode is questioning Hotel Moscow's decision to rub them off. What they were angsting about are the reasons that brought about the situation in the first place.

The environment very much exists in real life. That, is the scary thing.

Cheers.

Couldnt have put it better very good explanation the world is a messed up place and sometimes people who have been wronged by the world end up messed up. Is it the fault of the world or the fault of the people who can sympatheize with their agony?

[lommm]

free for the taking

[aohige]

I spewed out my tea watching this. Bararaika!

"Woot, Kirarin has a new OP....
......
*spews tea at the screen*"

[[DOT].L]

Originally Posted by aohige

I spewed out my tea watching this. Bararaika!

"Woot, Kirarin has a new OP....
......
*spews tea at the screen*"

Yeah, I admit it's a little weird listening to the song while having the images of Balalaika pop into my head. But "balalaika" is the name of a musical instrument so...

[aohige]

Originally Posted by [DOT].L

Yeah, I admit it's a little weird listening to the song while having the images of Balalaika pop into my head. But "balalaika" is the name of a musical instrument so...

Yeah, but it's all about the timing.
This OP is running the same season as Black Lagoon, so it's natual for a certain Russian mafia to enter your mind....

Of course, Balalaika's voice actress used to play Minky Momo 20 years ago,
and sang the opening "Love Love Minky Momo", so it's not too far fetched!

[Varis]

I'm kinda glad they don't sugar coat the criminal life in BL. Balalaika, Rock, Revi, Dutch, Benny, the twins, roberta, etc etc... they are all criminals. Even if you have some decency in you or cling to some morals, there is no way you keep your innocence.

I don't know if I would end up any better then them if I was put in their situation. I've donated before and even done charity work... but if I think about it, I did it so I would feel better about myself. I don't loose any sleep over others dying of hunger right now.

I take it that people like Revi don't give a damn about morals because no one else does. No one in that city would care if she starved to death or got shot while helping others. The cops and judges don't provide justice, just a price tag. So where do you turn? If you want to live you have to do WHATEVER it takes.

It sucks if you get forced into such a situation and I can sympathise with the twins for example. Balalaika explained enough to me during her talk with chang if you ask me. The twins just wanted to life so they did whatever it took to accomplish that. That they lost it at some point was expected.

Even if they where given a good family, a good psychiatrist and a shot at a new life, it would probably be too late. The shot to the head was a mercy killing if you ask me.


The problem comes from the top if you ask me. Take Paraguay for example. A part of my family lives there and breed cattle. My uncle there drives with a license that was expired 20 years ago. Right outside his ranch is a police station. When he passes by there though, the cops pull their hats.
Turns out that they where sent out there with nothing, so he built them the station. They don't even get paid enough to feed themselves, let alone their families so they depend on taking bribes. If you give them crap or don't do what they tell you somewhere else though, they will lock you up somewhere and you better hope you get someone to bail you out before you starve to death.

So unless you change/fix the system from the top on down, those on the bottom will never benefit from change.

[Deathkillz]

omg...ep15...

Spoiler:

wtf is up wht the ending? its soo depressing i was kinda hoping for both of them to die together...that way it would feel that they would continue to be together in the afterlife forever as bro and sis...i was completely surprised when hansel got shot in the end...it happened so fast i was just left with my gaping mouth hanging...touching and it did make me feel something in my heart...

[chucky]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

It was not I who was expecting it. It was the comments of my fellow posters here which lead me to believe that there is more to the story than just a fun-loving action adventure.

In reply to those comments, I stated that if that was true, then BL was coming somewhat short in this department.

Additionally, I want to add that while the first season of Black Lagoon certainly was everything that you've described it as, the first arc of the second season was different. I believe many posters have mentioned it before. The mood, the atmosphere, the pacing - all these things were slightly altered. While it may be just a short phenomenon (several episodes of the Nazi arc also seemed rather pessimistic, if not overly so), it's also true that this specific arc about the twins raised very interesting questions that other arcs glossed over in order to provide more flashbang action.

a) how about you stop blaming the others? so far 15 episodes of BL, where did you get the idea it is a sociological analysis?

b) as varis and [dot].L pointed out, it 1) never tries to moralize 2) leaves us the imagination. I really dont understand why kind of "background" you really want -- you want the twin's pedophilic incestuous sex scene? You want, eh, they were handed a baton to smash the skull of a fellow orphan into a blood pulp? I mean, we all know this already, dont we?

c) different from a shonen manga, there is no clear black and white chars in the series. If you really want this good vs bad stuff, go read One Piece. No one in BL is philanthropic afterall.....

[Trax]

Great 15th episode. Showed a slightly different side of the twins other than their perverse bloodlust, eventhough they were already way beyond repair and redemption. I was actually a bit surprised that the remaining twin actually recognized and responded to kindness, rather than being indifferent about it. Ofcourse it's too little too late, as Benny pointed out to Rock. It's a shame they turned out like this but it couldn't be helped anymore.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by chucky

a) how about you stop blaming the others? so far 15 episodes of BL, where did you get the idea it is a sociological analysis?

I don't know. Maybe because sometimes you can attempt to look beyond the exterior. Try that sometime.

b) as varis and [dot].L pointed out, it 1) never tries to moralize 2) leaves us the imagination.

I don't see why I am obligated to agree. I think I've stated my position clearly. If you have another opinion, discuss it in detail, if you wish to.

So far, all I see is an unsopported opinion with an appeal to the majority view. That just doesn't cut it as a valid rebuttal in my book.

I really dont understand why kind of "background" you really want -- you want the twin's pedophilic incestuous sex scene? You want, eh, they were handed a baton to smash the skull of a fellow orphan into a blood pulp? I mean, we all know this already, dont we?

Please keep your fantasies to yourself.

c) different from a shonen manga, there is no clear black and white chars in the series. If you really want this good vs bad stuff, go read One Piece. No one in BL is philanthropic afterall.....

You obviously missed the point of this discussion.

We were discussing my proposed notion that the writers were trying to present the twins in a much better light using compulsive visual imagery and the fact that some of the other ideas were not articulated as well because of this focus on whitewashing the twins.

PS: Here's a free advice. Don't try to get ad hominem on me. I don't take kindly to it. This is a discussion where we use reply with counterarguments to the actual points being raised. If you wish to insult me by claiming something I've never suggested, then you'll probably want to reconsider.

[Zelda1]

I worked in Central Africa during the early '90s, and after seeing the ages of some of the most blood-thirsty soldiers (less then 15 or so) nothing on this world can shock or dismay me. The twins are a product of their origin. Rock did not have the same experience I did so he was shattered. It takes time to build up that level of soul-callous.