2008-10-09, 23:40 | Link #1001 |
Star Designer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 38
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Combining it with Ai Oboete Imasuka with Ranka's appearance, the drama of the fight, beam barrage and genocide it delivered quite an impact. One of the best battle scenes in Frontier, one of the most memorable scenes in all of Macross as well.
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2008-10-09, 23:42 | Link #1002 | |
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
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And that damn battle ballade... that was OMGAWESOME! Not even Star Wars come close, sorry. - Tak
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2008-10-10, 00:30 | Link #1003 | |
Star Designer
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 38
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2008-10-10, 09:26 | Link #1005 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Reddywolf,
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2008-10-10, 09:35 | Link #1006 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, the thing about carriers is, they're mobile airfields. The question is, how useful would that be?
I mean, even if orbital weaponry makes canons and bombers superfluous, you may still need to do some reckon from closer to the ground. And transport people and materiel where a ship won't go. But does that justify building a whole carrier? |
2008-10-10, 12:38 | Link #1007 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I can say this much, if carriers can move underwater, and even better, launch aircraft while underwater, then large super carriers will definitely be useful. Orbital weapons can't track units that are hidden underwater, and even if they could, attacking one from orbit could be challenging (although not impossible). If they can't, then they might still be useful, but just not in the same form we see them today. Super carriers would be too vulnerable, but I think smaller carriers might still see some use. In other words, if aircraft still serve a useful purpose on the battlefield in the future, then we'll still have carriers. If they don't, then I don't see the point of giant carriers. Just something to be blown up IMO. But honestly, I don't see anything stopping a carrier from moving underwater, other than the sheer technological difficulty in making such a machine. The Japanese made some large submarines that were capable of launching a single aircraft. It's a far cry from a purpose built super carrier, but I think it demonstrates that it's possible. If anything, it's a hell of a lot easier to build than a carrier that can transform into a giant robot, and it would be infinitely more useful. |
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2008-10-10, 12:43 | Link #1008 | ||
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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An aircraft carrier is designed to carry and support its air wing. To do this effectively it has been realized that it will need protection form other ships. So the design has become such as that it can handle the command and control aspects for its air wing and its supporting and escorting vessels. The logistical needs to support this on the carrier have been designed into it from the start for the Super Carriers used today. Thus while its primary fuction is the transport and operate aircraft across the oceans, it has the ability to perform many other tasks just by the nature of its design. It is a convinient command and control vessel for operations off hostile lands (or even friendly lands that don't want your soldiers on their territory). The large flat surface provides ample room for evacuated peoples to be airlifted in or out of in relative safety. The logistical capabilities it was designed with to support its own crew and the attached air wing can be used for disaster relief efforts when needed. The arguement of "well just use a logistical ship" does not work here. We are talking a multipurpose warship that can be used in many different tasks at present from combat to relief efforts. A logistal ship maybe spending more time not doing any given job and thus costing money with less return on the investment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While an orbital battery might be able to take out and aircraft carrier, the question then becomes how does one hold territory with an orbital battery? Since there is effectively only one country that operates Super Carriers in any number, we get into an intersting situation. Who's orbital batteries are targeting the carriers? Why? How does one respond to this threat? Why even target the carriers if you can lance the population centers just as quickly and knock out command and control? Wouldn't the technology on the carriers also be advancing with the advancements in orbital weaponry? Would there even be carriers in service by the time advanced orbital batteries become a real issue? Note that the expected life span of a Super Carrier is 50 years. The first one (U.S.S Enterprise) is due for retirement within the next seven years or so. Depending on the state of her reactor materials and her replacement carrier. U.S.S. Nimitz would be due for replacement about ten years after Enterprise leaves service and the remaining Nimitz-class carriers replacements would be at roughly four to six year intervals after that. By that time either there will have been some advancements or the Ford-class will need a replacement carrier design as they age out in and after the 2060s. If the technology advances enough to start making the carriers obsolete and eventually pointless, then the construction of them will stop (as the need for a 11 carrier fleet will be dropped by Congress and the U.S. Navy), at which time they will either allow the remaining carriers to just age out to fulfill they expense, or they will be mothballed and eventually scrapped (or likely scuttled to form reefs). The Battleships went out in about the same way. After it was deturmined that they were not as useful anymore, the older ones where scrapped, or mothballed, with the newer vessels being slowly palced into the reserves. Thses were activated several times in the next fifty years, still proving they had uses, until they finally aged out. They are now on display rather than being scrapped. However it is the pace of technology and warfare that will deturming when or if the aircraft carrier will be obsolete in the near future. They have a life until the 2060s for now and probably until 2100 If they don't come up with something by 2050. If they manage to come up with something that radically alters the nature of warfare sooner, then the carriers will soldier on until they can be effectly placed into the reserve or mothballs (as it standard policy). That is unless the change is so dramatic (and sudden) that they new order of warfare just starts cutting the carriers in half while they are at sea on the first day. If that is the case...you have a much greater problem than just having obsolete warships as whatever just took out your carriers will probably be aimed at your cities next. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now submersible aircraft carriers on the other hand is something I can get behind (and was hoping the next class of carriers would be actually). You would still need a fairly large vessel, just not as large of an air wing. You don't need the CAP fighters for fleet defense at that point (or not many, just when performing take offs and landings...if the aircraft cannot launch and be recovered under water). So the carrier would have mostly strike aircraft and air superiority aircraft to be used to make sure the strike aircraft can do their duty safely. The other fleet defense units such as the anti-submarine planes, and probably the command and control types (or radar dome types) would not be carried if they can get all that information from a satelite. ANti-sub duties would be the venue of the attack submarines...or perhaps smaller defensive high speed submarines attached to the carrier air wing.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2008-10-10 at 12:56. |
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2008-10-10, 12:50 | Link #1009 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Ithekro, I will grant you that super carriers will be useful if they can travel underwater. But if they can't, then they are just giant targets as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter how useful they are. If they are vulnerable, then they are vulnerable.
Btw, carriers don't hold land. Land units hold land. You might say, well carriers carry land units. Maybe a few carry some, but they are designed to carry aircraft, which don't hold land. Also I believe the lifespan of a super carrier is about 10-15 years. 50 years doesn't make much sense. In 50 years, the model would be obsolete anyway. |
2008-10-10, 13:03 | Link #1010 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Well U.S.S. Kitty Hawk,the last of the conventionally powered American super carriers, was built in the late 1950s and entered service in 1961 is being retired at the beginning of next year. Enterprise is about the same age and will soldier on until somewhere between 2012 and 2015.
50 years seems to be the expected hull life of the super carriers. They do receive refits and refuelings every 15 years or so.
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2008-10-10, 13:11 | Link #1011 |
Macross Lifer!
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Just to add to the carrier discussion. The new macross class carriers are really a hybrid of battleship and carrier.
However, the NUNs fleets do have stand alone carriers that are probably at lot cheaper. The smaller Guantanamo class http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/ma...guantanamo.htm and the much larger Uraga class http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/macross7/uraga.htm |
2008-10-10, 13:15 | Link #1012 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Not to mention Super Carriers are a major investment.
Do you throw away tax dollars for a ship that breaks in a decade or two? No you don't. Quote:
Macross Class even has more craft than NMCs. |
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2008-10-10, 13:20 | Link #1013 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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THe New Macross class is basically a centerpiece for any Colonial Fleet. Generally towing (at being pushed by) the largest population center in the fleet.
The smaller carriers seem to be attached to the other populations centers of the fleet. Likely because they too many need rapid fighter cover or may be left alone if the Macross-class vessel is needed someplace else. But then in Macross, the fighter/mech is still the basic means on defense and attack for most races involved. While the capital ships have vastly more firepower, a smaller craft can usually get inside one and make an general mess of things from actually destroying the capital ship, to more than likely just delaying its combat abilities with another capital ship long enough for the friendly vessel to get the heavy weapons on target.
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2008-10-10, 14:40 | Link #1014 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Note: I'm on the fence on that one.
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Also, the point of submarine is that they're stealthy. I have trouble imagining a stealthy super carrier. But then, fifty years ago, the internet as it is now was also unimaginable. Well, the framework is this: imagine orbital weaponry have replaced almost every other form of weaponry. We don't need bombers, we don't need fighters anymore. If we want something blown up, we just send a command to a satellite and do it from space. Do the remaining uses of carriers justify their construction? Can't we replace them with something cheaper? If the only remaining task of carriers is as logistic ships, then... use logistic ships. My position is that the answer depends on how much we need a sea going airfield. Maybe in the Future(tm), instead of having carriers, we'll use helicopters and hydroplanes instead to fly people and materiel to the fleets. |
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2008-10-10, 18:02 | Link #1015 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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2008-10-10, 22:29 | Link #1016 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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http://www1.atwiki.jp/macrossaf/pages/12.html
According to the Ace Frontier game the VF-27 is called Lucifer while the VF-171 is called Nightmare Plus. VF-25 Messiah vs VF-27 Lucifer? What does that make the YF-24 Evolution? |
2008-10-11, 16:30 | Link #1017 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Fleet travel time question. I probably missed it at some point, but how often does the fleet fold while moving deeper and deeper into space? They can't be moving out at sublight speeds at all times...because they'd never get anywhere....even for a multi-generational ship.
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2008-10-11, 19:46 | Link #1018 | |
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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That assumes a complete lack of effectiveness among some of the point defense systems that the USN is currently experimenting with. ASAT missiles are going to be cheaper than OKW. OKW favours the existence of carriers since it can probably take out static bases. Ones not hardened against Nuclear strikes that is. But then Mirved Ballistic Missiles with nuclear warheads are more cost effective solution to most big blame requirements. Nuclear weapons haven't make carriers obsolete. Beam weapons Powerful enough to be used as OW mean the carrier can kill the weapon with its own larger and more numerous beam weapons [Which will be cheaper due to not having to be shipped to orbit along with a sufficiently power supply and installed as point defense] and giant ocean heatsink before taking sufficient damage to be nonserviceable. Orbital Beam weapons imply a return to big gun and armour [Pycrete for example] Battleships with expendable recon drones as manned aircraft may be too soft skinned to survive. The tech and resources for Orbital weapons to get to the point they could seriously threaten a competently designed and handled major surface combatant built with similar technology are so far in the future that one might as well talk about the influence of Pixies on warfare. By then we might have to worry about them. |
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2008-10-11, 20:20 | Link #1019 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Hmmm.
If we are talking fission reactors (present day reactors), then the American Aircraft carriers could power a beam weapon...assuming that the weapon system is small enough to be mounted and not interfere with air operations. Since each carrier has two reactors and "can" operate on one, they in theory could use one just to power the beam weapon when needed. The orbital battery would need to have enough power to focus a shot on a moving target at sea (33+ knots if the carrier is really moving), or it would need to be huge to redirect solar energy to a pinpoint of destruction capable of doing serious damage through the atmosphere. The carrier would need to be able to hit a target probably moving at several times the speed of sound and increadible distances...if the weapon isn't is a stationary orbit. If we are taking fusion reactors (not presently viable), then it remains to be seen just how large the obital satelite or station would need to be to power the weapon, and if the power output would be greater than that possible from current model carrier fission reactors. If the needs of the weapon are greater than the carrier can put out, then it cannot play the return fire game with anything other than fighter lauched anti-orbital missiles. It would be an odd sort of battle....but it would depend entirely on how the orbital weapons were placed in orbit, and what kind of weapons they were. If they were placed in orbit without an enemies knowledge, they would have the advantage. If they beam weapon technolgy was developed without outside knowledge and placed in orbit, they would have a clear advantage. If the pace of orbital battery development and ground/naval counters kept pace, it would be a potental standoff...depending on the destructive power and who pulled the trigger first. Railgun might be viable as a non-nuclear weapon of mass destruction. Mass and velocity.
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2008-10-12, 09:35 | Link #1020 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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KWs are always cheaper than missiles. Always. A cruise missile costs over $500,000. A 3kg tungsten slug fired from a railgun costs a few thousand at most, but probably less, while doing the same or more damage, and reaches the target in less time. Beam weapons won't work at all actually. You should know this already, but they are attenuated by the atmosphere. I find it funny that you mention a giant ocean heatsink. An OW has a giant space heatsink. Ah yes maybe. But then they wouldn't be carriers anymore. You've been arguing how the carrier could somehow survive the onslaught of a OW, but you never bothered to address what the heck could a carrier do to an OW. Let see umm... absolutely nothing. And finally as for your ridiculous analogy, pixies don't exist, while OWs, lasers, missiles, and KWs do. So yes, their impact on the future of warfare is more than reasonable. |
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