2008-12-29, 21:35 | Link #241 | |
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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This is not all that different from changes under the Church's strict rules in the past. Even if people are ruled by a fear, in that case a fear of hell and excommunication, they still moved forward. You cannot just arbitrarily dismiss the future. But that was never even the point. The point is that, a genocidal maniac was given a second chance, a blank slate, where as a man who wanted to give the people what they wanted, ended up losing his will for his life. |
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2008-12-29, 21:35 | Link #242 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: depths of Kagutsuchi where the Sheol Gate is located
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How about you re-read my edit before responding. I didn't miss the topic you just missed my point entirely. |
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2008-12-29, 21:53 | Link #243 | ||
Banned
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2008-12-29, 21:59 | Link #244 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Except that I wouldn't call Euphie being shot a punishment, and that I doubt Schneizel had much faith in humanity even before the SAZ incident.
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2008-12-29, 22:04 | Link #245 |
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Well I see is as that, she unintentionally killed people and pay the consequence which add to the fact that her fate was unfair. Well Schneizel was an enigma in R1 but we can agree that he cared deeply for his family as a whole and seeing Euphie killing innocent civilians must of had an effect on him psychologically since emotionally he was about the same.
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2008-12-29, 22:04 | Link #246 | ||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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Now I agree that Code Geass is not about fair or unfair, and that a lot of people really wouldn't have been alive if that were the case, but some of that can easily be chopped up to plot device, not actual plot signifance or importance or even relevance to thematics. But that was not what this was about, because if you are talking about unfair and fair, then you are at conflict with the original discussion which was about everyone being given a chance by Lelouch's death which was the very point being made for Nina's defense. The simple premise of the idea is not true. Schneizel is as dangerous as Nina, but his intentions were good. Nina's were vengeful. Nina wanted revenge and wanted to just kill the Japanese. If you let her loose the damage she could do would have no positive whereas Schneizel's annihaltion of a continent may garnish an actual positive outcome. I am not saying he is an innocent little tulip, not at all, he is a twisted man just like Lelouch, and just like Nina. Nina dying at the hands of her own creation would have been just literary retribution for her stupidity, but it didn't happen. |
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2008-12-29, 22:20 | Link #247 | |||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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He is also a genius on a very similar level as Lelouch, and has nothing in the world that he cares about except for the "greater good". Especially by the end of the anime, he is a much greater risk than Nina, who will probably never support something like Fleya ever again. Quote:
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2008-12-29, 22:37 | Link #248 | ||||
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Eh....I can say the same thing for alot of characters. |
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2008-12-29, 22:47 | Link #249 | ||||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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2008-12-30, 05:17 | Link #250 | ||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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Or rather, you added to it. You implemented that Viletta never changed. I do not disagree. I merely said that Viletta's actions was because she was striving for happiness. As for what she got, whether she deserved it or not, it's for you to judge. I won't agree or disagree. I only watch the anime. I think too that Shirley's death, even Euphemia's death; they did not deserve it. Yet that exactly proves my point. This world, is unfair. I think that's too one of the things that Code Geass wants to convey. Quote:
As for giving free passes, it's all opinion whether you want to give them or not. Some people would think that Nina doesn't deserve it, whilst some people may think she had compensated by inventing a way to stop FLEIYA. To each his own. Quote:
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You speak as though Nogitsune is saying that her thoughts are facts. I don't think so. Here, it's merely how we think, and therefore opinions. So you want to shape her understanding of justice? It's fine by me. Go ahead. Quote:
I can't help you on that. But.. true. The justice system is exactly formed for that purpose. Yet it can too, be manipulated. Quote:
I don't think Lelouch is a poor example. You think so, because you think I am comparing him with Nina. No, I couldn't care less about Nina. I was talking about the philosophy of Code Geass based on what I think. So if you want to state again that that was a poor example, you can start from there. Quote:
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2008-12-30, 10:38 | Link #251 | |||
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
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And it is not about shaping nogitsune's idea of justice. It is clarifying one of the very institutions that define a state level society. The fact that laws, and crime and punishment is one of the very defining features of a state level society all around the world, even in cultures that have no interaction with each other and based in completely different regions means that there is a need for a unified code of law. Crime and punishment is a part of it, to be a deterrent to future crimes. Giving away "free passes" just because they are perceived to have learned their lesson runs contrary to what makes our justice system works, perhaps not perfectly but there is a reason why transgressions has to be punished even on a family level. Again back to the point of everyone striving for happiness, once again, the point of the series is that no one should trample on others for their own happiness. That is why Lelouch has paid the price for ruining the lives and happiness of others. Lelouch is a poor example because of that very fact. Even though he believes that doing what he did would make the world better, he still understands that what he did was inexcusable and his sacrifice was his atonement for geass and the people whose lives he ruined for his happiness. But really what Lelouch was striving for was not HIS happiness but rather other people's happiness and his atonement. But really what I have the post problem with nogitsune's point was that Nina somehow deserved a free pass but Lelouch was a selfish bastard. He may have based his plan on what he has said, that those who are allowed to shoot should be prepared to be shot, or something to that effect, it is a declaration of his belief that people should be responsible for their actions, that you should only act when you are prepared for the consequences. He is acting behind that belief when engineering his own death, by accepting what his choices and actions have lead to up to this, and then atoning and punishing himself for them. |
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2008-12-30, 11:40 | Link #252 | |
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And i also agree with everything else as well. There is indeed a need for a unified code of law. Crime and punishment. After you are done with paying your "price/time" then you are free to be given the benefit of the doubt. But not before, it should not work that way and it does not work that way, thank God. |
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2008-12-30, 12:05 | Link #253 | |||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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*once again agrees with Neku*
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As I see it, Nina always wanted to become a "better person" - she just didn't know how to do it. And then she met a brave princess who saved her life and represented everything she wanted to be. That's the ideal Nina wanted to pursue, even though we don't know for sure if she still clung to her "goddess" by the end of the series or if she learned how to stand on her own. I, for one, believe it's the latter, even though she wil always remember Euphemia and occasionally ask herself what she would have done in her place. Quote:
If I don't feel that Nina needed to be punished, then that's simply how it is. I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with me. Quote:
Later on... well, we already talked about that. Some believe he was only thinking about his precious people, others - like me - think he did what he did for everyone, even though his loved ones played a very important part in that decision; and some have an entirely different opinion. However, as far as I remember, it was officially stated that it was Lelouch's pride that drove him to seek death. Of cource he judged himself and felt that he needed to atone for his sins, but that's just the kind of person he is. At the same time, though, he was very non-judgmental when it came to everyone else - especially his loved ones -, and that, to me, is another very important part of his character. Quote:
I also mentioned quite a few times that I don't think he "deserved" a punishment, either, even though it clearly was what he wanted. I once stated that Lelouch's death was the most selfish act of selflesness I've ever witnessed, and that more or less sums up what I think of him: He is proud and selfish, but at the same time an incredible kind and non-judgmental person, and I adore him for that. Quote:
Still, he did not think that everyone should pay for their crimes. He just wanted people to be happy - at first his loved ones, then, by the end of the series - the whole world. Or at least, that's how I see it.
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2008-12-30, 12:34 | Link #254 | |||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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Where was it implied that Nina wanted to become a better person? Her fixation on Euphemia had nothing to do with Euphemia being a kind and caring person to everyone, it was her caring for her (Nina). She protected her from the "evil" Japanese with whom Nina has clearly had a shaky past. It was a fixation from saviour to rescuer, than anything else. Or do you think, Nina was humping that table because she wanted to "become a better person"? Quote:
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Those who live by the sword, and die by the sword, don't just follow the code by pride. It is a matter of ironic retribution. Lelouch disagreed with you. |
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2008-12-30, 12:48 | Link #255 | |
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2008-12-30, 12:55 | Link #256 | |||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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But before that, she always kept close to Milly - another strong, kind person. It's true that we can't say for sure if she herself wanted to become a "strong" or a "good" person, but I doubt she had fun being afraid of her own shadow, and the moment she took Euphemia as her role model, she wanted to become like her - a "better person". So we're back to the fact that she changed over time, and that we don't know what kind of person she truly had become by the end of series. I have my interpretation, you have yours. Quote:
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Stating the obvious is fun.
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2008-12-30, 13:22 | Link #257 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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More than resentment, what she originally felt was fear. Nina was a very shy person with no self-esteem who feared the Japanese but when she met Euphemia that gave her a chance to improve. She also didn't have much of a problem with Suzaku at Ashford if you want to be technical, though of course that was a more subtle influence. I think there's a scene where it shows she was even willing to give the Special Zone a chance for Euphemia's sake. Yes, there was a clear element of personal obsession there, but she was at least moving in the right direction. It's only after Euphy's death that Nina completely breaks down and wants to use her research to blow Zero up, even if that takes Ashford along with it. You could say that did give her actual resentment and hatred, as well as making her a more pro-active character, something which Schneizel took advantage of. Still, even then she still had enough normality left in her to feel sad for Shirley's death, and her rejection of Milly was at least more rational than her outburst against Zero. After the FREYA explosion, Nina realizes that she was responsible for not just developing a weapon of mass destruction (duh!) but recklessly pushing for its use, which led to the deaths of millions. Which was stupid, from an external perspective, but keep in mind she had a one-track mind, seeking revenge against Zero and caring about little else. That realization and Lloyd's comments make her go into hiding. After being captured by Lelouch and learning of his plan, she is at least willing to put her personal hatred behind and agrees to help for Euphy's sake even if she hasn't forgiven Zero, partially as compensation for her own role in creating FREYA too. None of this is really "new", of course, but looking at the full picture helps. She's still not a very sympathetic character, but at least her development isn't too bad. No, you can't exactly bring the millions dead back to life and Nina will have to live with that knowledge, because morally speaking she would deserve a heavier punishment than just guilt. But even someone like her has a future that Lelouch, one way or another, sacrificed himself for. Last edited by Xander; 2008-12-30 at 13:35. |
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2008-12-30, 15:25 | Link #258 | ||
Banned
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Location: depths of Kagutsuchi where the Sheol Gate is located
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2008-12-30, 19:16 | Link #259 | |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
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Lelouch used Nunally as justification for his revenge, but the difference between him and the other examples brought up is that at the end he was not motivated by self gain and his own happiness but the happiness of others and what he sought was atonement, not happiness. |
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2008-12-30, 19:44 | Link #260 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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She has to start somewhere, after all, and there are plenty people who do good mainly because of some higher power they believe in. As long as they are still able to think for themselves, that's fine with me. Quote:
But I never said Nina and Lelouch were the same - of course Lelouch is the "better person" of the two at heart. (Not to mention that I believe that, regardless of what he has done, there are very few people as kind as him.)
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