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GDB · 2017-11-05, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Man, this must be the longest fight of this entire arc. Still, wasn't established long ago that Super Saiyans Gods are on a whole new level to the point even fusions can't reach them?

In Battle of Gods, I believe it was said that SSJG Goku was vastly stronger than Super Vegito. Which is something I'm not liking about Kefla. Sure, Goku's worn out, but he's still in SSJG mode. Kefla is just essentially two SSJ2s fused together, so should be on par with Super Vegito (or a little stronger). Yet somehow BASE form Kefla is now completely overpowering SSJG Goku?

Can only suspend my belief so much here. Bad enough with the constant cuts to the peanut gallery saying asinine things like "He should have teamed up with Frieza" when he was still in SSJ2 mode. Odd that they thought he couldn't go SSJG mode, when that form should theoretically take less energy than SSJ2, if not even SSJ1.

rpgman1 · 2017-11-05, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

In Battle of Gods, I believe it was said that SSJG Goku was vastly stronger than Super Vegito. Which is something I'm not liking about Kefla. Sure, Goku's worn out, but he's still in SSJG mode. Kefla is just essentially two SSJ2s fused together, so should be on par with Super Vegito (or a little stronger). Yet somehow BASE form Kefla is now completely overpowering SSJG Goku?

Can only suspend my belief so much here. Bad enough with the constant cuts to the peanut gallery saying asinine things like "He should have teamed up with Frieza" when he was still in SSJ2 mode. Odd that they thought he couldn't go SSJG mode, when that form should theoretically take less energy than SSJ2, if not even SSJ1.

I wouldn't worry too much about that since Kefla will defuse in the future and didn't know about the limits of Potara fusion like using a transformation that drains too much stamina without realizing it, using energy attacks that drain a lot, or if Jiren does something that defuses Kefla (doesn't matter what he does).

I can't believe based form Kefla can beat SSJG Goku that easily like it was nothing. If SSJB Goku + Kaioken can't even beat SSJ Kefla, I'll be in complete disbelief if it happens next episode.

DemonneoPT · 2017-11-05, 13:13

I know powerlevels became pretty much pointless to discuss about due to the constant inconsistencies but i believe the Legendary Super Sayan in Super is being dealt just like the PS2 DBZ games, where it was slightly stronger than Majin Buu (kid). Maybe that's why Kefla is this strong.

The reason why it's so hard to pinpoint the actual power of a Legendary SSJ it's because the Broly movie was also a mess regarding powerlevels. It was stated Broly was able to wipe out entire galaxies (like Majin Buu), his energy was so high he had to randomly unleash his ki to alleviate himself, survided a planet explosion while he was just a baby, etc etc, yet he was defeated by Goku powered up with just the energy of it's friends..lol. No wonder people get confused. But i believe it's safe to say Toei is following the PS2 games path regarding the LSSJ.

Kanon · 2017-11-05, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

In Battle of Gods, I believe it was said that SSJG Goku was vastly stronger than Super Vegito. Which is something I'm not liking about Kefla. Sure, Goku's worn out, but he's still in SSJG mode. Kefla is just essentially two SSJ2s fused together, so should be on par with Super Vegito (or a little stronger). Yet somehow BASE form Kefla is now completely overpowering SSJG Goku?

Kefla is so strong because of Kale IMO. Even Jiren reacted when she powered up at the beginning of the ep, and it didn't seem like her power dropped one bit when she mastered her Berserk state. She could already more or less keep up with SSJGod Goku while Caulifla was outmatched. So I believe she was close to God level before the fusion, hence why it resulted in such a powerful warrior. I'll grant you Kefla's base state is way too powerful though. They should have had her go SSJ at least, and then SSJ2 or 3 to match Blue.

Tong · 2017-11-05, 14:31

Good episode. It was mere speculation before, but now Vados has confirmed that the Potara fusion multiplies the sum of the fusees powerlevels, whereas Fusion dance is merely a sum.

People seem surprised that base form Kefla is stronger than SSG Goku, but we have to take in account the base powers of Caulifla and Kale first, they surely arent as weak as some people think. Cabba was able to keep up with base form Vegeta, after all that training with Whis, so shouldnt we assume that Caulifla and Kale (and maybe the others Saiyans from U6) are just as strong as well? And no, I'm not talking about transformations or whether or not they can achieve SSB, thats entirely different.

So maybe Kefla being that strong shouldnt be too surprising, all things considered?

Archon_Wing · 2017-11-05, 14:49

Also keep in mind, it was like, 20 minutes ago where Goku got rekt by Jiren and was struggling against some scrubs soon after. And SSG is less than SSB and apparently Kale was able to stand up to SSB Goku already, as little sense as that makes...

And of course, potara fusion is just incredibly powerful even if not both members are that strong. After all Vegeta in the Buu arc was much weaker than Goku yet Vegito was far and above Buu and if you go by Toei logic, messes with Buu without tranforming either. And Future Zamasu while being immortal wasn't that strong either compared to everyone else also caused a huge power gain.

But Toei has an annoying history of making people fight in base when they have no business doing this, though we haven't reach GT meme levels where base goku > all.

In the end, comes just the overall plot point that U6's Saiyans are just superior in potential. They have evolved away their tales and U6 is a higher ranked universe too, so that's not surprising. From base form Cabba being able to challenge Vegeta, it's actually been pretty consistent that if the U6 saiyans learned to transform that they would easily outpace their u7 counterparts. And then keep in mind how weak U7 saiyans really are. I mean, Vegeta as a kid already was stronger than his entire race, Nappa was already considered cream of the crop, and Saiyans really couldn't accomplish anythings beyond the Oozaru hax. pound for pound it'd almost seem like Namekians are better warriors. And they're all outclassed by what some jackass piled together in his basement for about 20 years. That being said, it would seem they have really snipped back on Saiyans having great potential. If anything, Frieza's race would probably be that....

The whole "Saiyans have infinite potential" comes with the idea in the Frieza saga that Saiyans grow stronger after dying. However, this idea was largely scrapped because it was being abused to the point of stupidity (Yo, blow a heart in my chest again.... result in some masochistic training) and thus I think way too much value is attributed to it. And of course, in this saga Namekians made huge leaps, as well as humans (Krillin! Vegeta even thinks that he'd be a factor in beating 1st form Frieza) and then the whole thing with hybrids having even more potential than pure saiyans.

tl;dr Toriyama forgot.

Blueknight78 · 2017-11-05, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Also keep in mind, it was like, 20 minutes ago where Goku got rekt by Jiren and was struggling against some scrubs soon after. And SSG is less than SSB and apparently Kale was able to stand up to SSB Goku already, as little sense as that makes...

And of course, potara fusion is just incredibly powerful even if not both members are that strong. After all Vegeta in the Buu arc was much weaker than Goku yet Vegito was far and above Buu and if you go by Toei logic, messes with Buu without tranforming either. And Future Zamasu while being immortal wasn't that strong either compared to everyone else also caused a huge power gain.

But Toei has an annoying history of making people fight in base when they have no business doing this, though we haven't reach GT meme levels where base goku > all.

In the end, comes just the overall plot point that U6's Saiyans are just superior in potential. They have evolved away their tales and U6 is a higher ranked universe too, so that's not surprising. From base form Cabba being able to challenge Vegeta, it's actually been pretty consistent that if the U6 saiyans learned to transform that they would easily outpace their u7 counterparts. And then keep in mind how weak U7 saiyans really are. I mean, Vegeta as a kid already was stronger than his entire race, Nappa was already considered cream of the crop, and Saiyans really couldn't accomplish anythings beyond the Oozaru hax. pound for pound it'd almost seem like Namekians are better warriors. And they're all outclassed by what some jackass piled together in his basement for about 20 years. That being said, it would seem they have really snipped back on Saiyans having great potential. If anything, Frieza's race would probably be that....

The whole "Saiyans have infinite potential" comes with the idea in the Frieza saga that Saiyans grow stronger after dying. However, this idea was largely scrapped because it was being abused to the point of stupidity (Yo, blow a heart in my chest again.... result in some masochistic training) and thus I think way too much value is attributed to it. And of course, in this saga Namekians made huge leaps, as well as humans (Krillin! Vegeta even thinks that he'd be a factor in beating 1st form Frieza) and then the whole thing with hybrids having even more potential than pure saiyans.

tl;dr Toriyama forgot.

totallya agree about the "universe 6" sayans being superior, as we see overal universe 6 is superior to universe 7 even his namekusens showed to be strong, just look at how they are able to give to both gohan and piccolo a run for they money, what is needed for the universe 6 get up some ranks is just the whole "sayan race" learn to turn in ssj then later use the 'god ritual" to become ssg, cuz all you need to get the "god power" is have 5 "good sayans" and you have a "whole planet full of good sayans" to do that, all they need is goku teach then the "trick" to do that.

about kale i believe which kale LSSJ berserker still strong than her "controlled form", as we see in berserker she is pretty much "hulk" and as hulk the more anger she get more strong she get and in controlled form she can't get strong as fast as in berserk, if she let all her "rage go" and go full berserker she have much more chance to beat goku alone, than under controll, another problem is which she is holding herself to allow "caulifla" be part of the fight, that is why she is having problem with current goku "red" god, if she had stopped to care about "caulifla" and go full power against goku she could had forced him go SSJB, kale in berserker form is strong as goku SSJB.

now which we have kefla, she must be "stronger" than SSB and force goku go SSB kaioken x10 or something like that.

Kyero Fox · 2017-11-06, 00:00

I find it hilarious that people are boggled by how these new characers can be so strong.

Like do they think NONE of these Universes have had their share of trials and bad shit happen? Come oooon.

This guy seems to REALLY hate Kale and Caulifla to a immature degree of ignorance and bias.

Shadow5YA · 2017-11-06, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Kefla is so strong because of Kale IMO. Even Jiren reacted when she powered up at the beginning of the ep, and it didn't seem like her power dropped one bit when she mastered her Berserk state. She could already more or less keep up with SSJGod Goku while Caulifla was outmatched. So I believe she was close to God level before the fusion, hence why it resulted in such a powerful warrior. I'll grant you Kefla's base state is way too powerful though. They should have had her go SSJ at least, and then SSJ2 or 3 to match Blue.

If Kefla can even turn SSJ2 or 3.
Remember Kale only had one green SSJ form like Broly, and her other forms were just half-transformations or other variations of the same form. If Kefla is the same, there's a chance she won't be able to go SSJ2 at all.

zyta · 2017-11-06, 07:44

Wouldn't the potara rings be counted as an outside item, like the senzu bean? They didn't do a technique to fuse, like the fusion dance. Also curious about the power ranger/police man's suit.

Mad Pierrot · 2017-11-06, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

I find it hilarious that people are boggled by how these new characers can be so strong.

Like do they think NONE of these Universes have had their share of trials and bad shit happen? Come oooon.

This guy seems to REALLY hate Kale and Caulifla to a immature degree of ignorance and bias.

Spoiler for big vid:

If people are angry about these characters prepare for the other two new Super Saiyans

EDIT: Now that I am trying to make sense is that Goku could recover while fighting in the Super Saiyan Base form considering in the Cell arc he managed to control it completely after training with Gohan. Still, I am not sure about Super Saiyan 2 or Red.

Kanon · 2017-11-06, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

If Kefla can even turn SSJ2 or 3.
Remember Kale only had one green SSJ form like Broly, and her other forms were just half-transformations or other variations of the same form. If Kefla is the same, there's a chance she won't be able to go SSJ2 at all.

Broly was given a SSJ3 transformation in the games, so they could give her that. Caulifla and Kale have been talking about achieving Super Saiyan 3, they didn't manage to do it on their own but they could reach this form thanks to the fusion like Gotenks.

Fenrir_valindri · 2017-11-06, 16:11

Vegito not being as strong was true at the time, but keep in mind everyone base levels have risen dramatically since the first arc of Super.

Cabba (who is weaker then Caulifla) was on par with base Vegeta in the U6 arc, which puts him above final form Frieza during return of F in his base form.

That logic alone makes Caulifla more powerful in base then almost anyone during Z with the possible exception of fused characters like Buuhan and Vegito.

Of course her power is dramatically higher when she enters SS/SS2. On top of that she is rapidly picking up her fighting skill/mastery of SS2 while fighting Goku. Last episode was basically her development speed vs Goku's recovery speed.

This isn't even taking Kale into account who was actually matching SSG to some degree.

The fight itself clearly demonstrated that Caulifla (SS2) can't keep up with SSG, but Kale (LSSJ) could.

It makes sense that their fusion would be solidly above SSG even in base, the earring fusion has always been really OP, just think of base Vegito vs Buuhan.

GDB · 2017-11-06, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

Caulifla and Kale have been talking about achieving Super Saiyan 3, they didn't manage to do it on their own but they could reach this form thanks to the fusion like Gotenks.

To be fair, they're idiots. They think beating Goku will unlock SSJ3 like in an RPG or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It makes sense that their fusion would be solidly above SSG even in base, the earring fusion has always been really OP, just think of base Vegito vs Buuhan.

Nothing you said is actually an argument for their fusion's base being vastly superior to SSJG making sense.

Also, in the manga base Vegito never fought Buuhan because he knew he needed to go SSJ to do what he needed to do.

xeviouses · 2017-11-06, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by zyta

Wouldn't the potara rings be counted as an outside item, like the senzu bean? They didn't do a technique to fuse, like the fusion dance. Also curious about the power ranger/police man's suit.

The only things not allowed are weapons and healing items. BUT! if the Zeno's like the item they'll allow it anyway.

vietthai96 · 2017-11-06, 22:35

ToP rule is only against conventional weapons(except weapon create from ability) and healing items. Potara is rather counted as accessories with ability to fuse, and fusion doesn't counted as attacking/damaging ability so Potara doesn't counted as weapon

Many people still usling the logic base form from RoF. It is called Saiyan beyond God, is the form with God Ki infuse in base form and it power is close to SSG. Frieza Final Form in RoF(both movie and anime) is stronger than SSJ3 already. But many people confuse SbG with NORMAL base form so they don't use it and replace with SSG become transformable(take it like manga) in ToP

Sixth · 2017-11-07, 06:30

So what is the chance that Beerus have handed over the potaro earring to No.17, No.18, Gohan and Picolo, Krillin, Tien and Roshi when Goku went to find Frieza?

Beerus: I am giving you guys this. When the time calls, those who are still in the ring, give it to Goku and Vegeta. This will ensure our U7 victory.

Hakai · 2017-11-07, 07:00

Spoilers for ep 115-119

Here we go

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/927863624860811264

Spoiler for titles and summaries:

Spoiler for about...:

Sixth · 2017-11-07, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakaishin

Here we go

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/927863624860811264

Spoiler for about...:

At this rate, UI will be another SSB.

Goku: I have mastered UI!
Next arc villain dodging all Goku's attacks and hit Goku at 100% hit rate.
UI Goku: WTF! Why can't I dodge his attacks

vietthai96 · 2017-11-07, 08:00

Well except for now he must go Ultra Instinct by himself, not by Spirit Bomb any more. i think it is understandable, he must fingure out how to go UI by himself, and master it before go on with Jiren again because Jiren still not using his full power

2017-11-05, 14:31	Link #4725
Tong Many RPGs, Little Time Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BR Age: 32	Good episode. It was mere speculation before, but now Vados has confirmed that the Potara fusion multiplies the sum of the fusees powerlevels, whereas Fusion dance is merely a sum. People seem surprised that base form Kefla is stronger than SSG Goku, but we have to take in account the base powers of Caulifla and Kale first, they surely arent as weak as some people think. Cabba was able to keep up with base form Vegeta, after all that training with Whis, so shouldnt we assume that Caulifla and Kale (and maybe the others Saiyans from U6) are just as strong as well? And no, I'm not talking about transformations or whether or not they can achieve SSB, thats entirely different. So maybe Kefla being that strong shouldnt be too surprising, all things considered? __________________

2017-11-06, 00:00	Link #4728
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	I find it hilarious that people are boggled by how these new characers can be so strong. Like do they think NONE of these Universes have had their share of trials and bad shit happen? Come oooon. This guy seems to REALLY hate Kale and Caulifla to a immature degree of ignorance and bias. <p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/CoCpLwBDM4o">watch on YouTube</a>.</p> __________________

2017-11-06, 07:44	Link #4730
zyta Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Arizona	Wouldn't the potara rings be counted as an outside item, like the senzu bean? They didn't do a technique to fuse, like the fusion dance. Also curious about the power ranger/police man's suit. __________________ Bible Way to Heaven

2017-11-06, 16:11	Link #4733
Fenrir_valindri Miria's #1 Disciple Join Date: Apr 2007	Vegito not being as strong was true at the time, but keep in mind everyone base levels have risen dramatically since the first arc of Super. Cabba (who is weaker then Caulifla) was on par with base Vegeta in the U6 arc, which puts him above final form Frieza during return of F in his base form. That logic alone makes Caulifla more powerful in base then almost anyone during Z with the possible exception of fused characters like Buuhan and Vegito. Of course her power is dramatically higher when she enters SS/SS2. On top of that she is rapidly picking up her fighting skill/mastery of SS2 while fighting Goku. Last episode was basically her development speed vs Goku's recovery speed. This isn't even taking Kale into account who was actually matching SSG to some degree. The fight itself clearly demonstrated that Caulifla (SS2) can't keep up with SSG, but Kale (LSSJ) could. It makes sense that their fusion would be solidly above SSG even in base, the earring fusion has always been really OP, just think of base Vegito vs Buuhan. __________________

2017-11-06, 22:35	Link #4736
vietthai96 The Saiyan God Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Vietnam Age: 27	ToP rule is only against conventional weapons(except weapon create from ability) and healing items. Potara is rather counted as accessories with ability to fuse, and fusion doesn't counted as attacking/damaging ability so Potara doesn't counted as weapon Many people still usling the logic base form from RoF. It is called Saiyan beyond God, is the form with God Ki infuse in base form and it power is close to SSG. Frieza Final Form in RoF(both movie and anime) is stronger than SSJ3 already. But many people confuse SbG with NORMAL base form so they don't use it and replace with SSG become transformable(take it like manga) in ToP __________________

2017-11-05, 13:13	Link #4723
DemonneoPT Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Portugal	I know powerlevels became pretty much pointless to discuss about due to the constant inconsistencies but i believe the Legendary Super Sayan in Super is being dealt just like the PS2 DBZ games, where it was slightly stronger than Majin Buu (kid). Maybe that's why Kefla is this strong. The reason why it's so hard to pinpoint the actual power of a Legendary SSJ it's because the Broly movie was also a mess regarding powerlevels. It was stated Broly was able to wipe out entire galaxies (like Majin Buu), his energy was so high he had to randomly unleash his ki to alleviate himself, survided a planet explosion while he was just a baby, etc etc, yet he was defeated by Goku powered up with just the energy of it's friends..lol. No wonder people get confused. But i believe it's safe to say Toei is following the PS2 games path regarding the LSSJ.

2017-11-07, 06:30	Link #4737
Sixth Hu Tao Join Date: Oct 2006	So what is the chance that Beerus have handed over the potaro earring to No.17, No.18, Gohan and Picolo, Krillin, Tien and Roshi when Goku went to find Frieza? Beerus: I am giving you guys this. When the time calls, those who are still in the ring, give it to Goku and Vegeta. This will ensure our U7 victory.

2017-11-07, 07:00	Link #4738
Hakai Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Age: 25	Spoilers for ep 115-119 Here we go https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/927863624860811264 Spoiler for titles and summaries: Episode 115 (12 November) Goku vs Kefla! Super Saiyan Blue Defeated?! Fighting Universe 7's son Goku, Universe 6's Caulifla and Kale use the "Potara" earrings that Kaioshins wear to merge. Facing Goku as "Kefla", they overwhelm him with stupendous power. Witnessing this, the people from the other universes wonder if they too should use Potara to merge, and begin forming plans... Episode 116 (19 November) The Comeback Omen! Ultra Instinct's Great Explosion!! Through his extreme battle with Kefla, Goku once again utilizes "Ultra Instinct", a region which even gods cannot easily obtain. Goku triggers a further power-up in his opponent Kefla Episode 117 (26 November) Grand Love Showdown! Androids vs Universe 2 After using up all of his stamina with Ultra Instinct, Goku is targeted by Ribrianne and the others of Universe 2. As it looks like Goku is going to be hit by their attacks, Androids 17 and 18 arrive to help him. Episode 118 (3 December) Accelerating Drama: A Universe Disappears...! [No summary yet] Episode 119(10 December) A new victim from Universe 7! Universe 4's specialty [No summary yet] Spoiler for about...: Seriously why bring back UI this early if Goku's just going to run out of energy again. Now they'll take another 5-6 episodes(or God knows how many more) for Goku to recover again -__- Smh Toei writers trolling. __________________ Last edited by Hakai; 2017-11-07 at 11:18.

2017-11-07, 08:00	Link #4740
vietthai96 The Saiyan God Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Vietnam Age: 27	Well except for now he must go Ultra Instinct by himself, not by Spirit Bomb any more. i think it is understandable, he must fingure out how to go UI by himself, and master it before go on with Jiren again because Jiren still not using his full power __________________