[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Exactly. Shkanon is just like a Devil's Proof. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so that means it must exist? That's wrong.

When I think of Knox's 10th, I think of clues supporting the disguise, not a lack of clues denying disguises. If we are given a fair mystery to solve, then Shkanon makes no sense.

I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, someone posted the full interview. It's very long, so not very likely to be a fake (it would have taken several hours to write up the whole thing, but only a few seconds to be proved wrong). Still, best not to take anything too seriously. Even so, there are a couple of interesting points that haven't been mentioned yet:

Isn't this completely different from the last interview?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.

All of your "potential clues" for a disguise that I've read are all from episode 4 In 1998. None of them come from episode 1 and 2 where Shkanon was originally suspected in. And none of them are the same kind of suspicions we have for the Beatrice disguise.

Can you find clues in 1986 please? Stuff that doesn't involve the Fukuin house being some sort of acting school? That's a huge leap.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Isn't this completely different from the last interview?

I think I've said that I'm only posting parts of it. All told, I've only shown less than half (and I saw no point in re-posting what I already had). The rest of the interview isn't so groundbreaking.


As for Shkanon, if you go back and look at my posts, you'll see plenty. If you reread the first 4 games again, some of them will be plainly obvious when you keep EP6 in mind. It's not just clues that Shannon is disguised as Kanon, there's also clues that they were both the same person from the beginning.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I have already shown several potential clues for that being a disguise in my theory. Your statement is inaccurate.

I was referring to the "Battler never sees them both at the same time, therefore they are the same person" part.

Most of your theory comes from the beginning of EP2 and the Ange scenes of EP4, right? Those scenes can be explained without using Shkanon.

For example, what if Shannon and Beatrice were the same person, and Kanon knew about it? There are definitely clues that Shannon is Beatrice (the promise, etc).
The butterfly brooch represents the "love" that Shannon learned, and she wanted to share that with Kanon. But he didn't believe in the power of love, so he rejected it.

And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon (er, Sayo) can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.

[Tyabann]

Actually, let's examine this interview a little. Trying to figure out what Ryu07 is saying at any given time is probably an exercise in futility, but...

Spoiler for extremely negative comments ahoy!:

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

By now, you probably understand that love is one of the themes of this tale. In that case, you might say that Zepar and Furfur are the demons who control/represent the truth of the main story. There are many very strong hints and clues in what those two say.

I can't comment on this, since I haven't played Ep6, but ...hmm. I had been thinking earlier... if Battler's goal in Ep6 is to keep Beatrice alive by continuing to hide her secret, then, assuming for a second that said secret is that she's the second personality of Sayo, why is his entire magic-world gameboard structured to heavily hint at and support Shkanon?

Just a thought. Probably a useless one, though.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

If you really understand how he was able to escape, it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.

Again, let's assume he means Shkanon here, as this bit HEAVILY suggests it because as I understand it, that's just about all Ep6 really talks about. The whole time. Over and over.

What does this mean, then, if every single closed room riddle can be solved with Shkanon? It means that Ryukishi is a complete fucking idiot, and I don't think I need to say why.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

At the end of EP6, they said "we want to have an answer session", so I think that it will include backstory elements that haven't yet appeared in the story, as well as the inner thoughts of various people, making for something that borders on the level of a confession.

Well, this sounds like a good thing, but knowing this man, it's probably got nothing to do with the adults whatsoever. -_-

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

As for the truth behind Battler's sin and putting Beatrice to sleep, plenty of hints...no, in fact, the answer has already appeared in EP1-6. Quick readers reach the answer in EP4, even more weak points are exposed in EP5, and EP6 gives a nearly definitive answer.

You know, this is one thing in particular that REALLY disappoints me. If this interview confirms anything, it's that Battler's sin has to do with Shannon, and even though that's been obvious for a while, it's disappointing BECAUSE it's been so obvious for a while.

If you're writing a mystery but are pretty much incapable of surprising people... you've failed. You've failed miserably.

If his sin had to do with another character entirely, then, well... that'd be unexpected and interesting, and would have to rely on subtle clues rather than HITTING US IN THE HEAD OVER AND OVER WITH THE ANSWER FOR FOUR ENTIRE EPISODES.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

In Umineko, if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!', so I'd like to create a slight gap between those who have reached the answer and those who haven't. If this tale were to tell you the answer so plainly that you didn't have to think about it, it would no longer be a game.

Whenever anyone involved in American television says something like this, what they really mean is that "we were just making things up on the spot and making it seem like it was all connected, so we apologize, but you, the fans, are going to have to do the work we didn't." This is why Lost's ending is going to make no sense at all, and why BSG's ending didn't either.

I suspect this is the same thing here. Some of the closed rooms and mysteries are constructed in such a way that there is almost no way out of them outside of an interpretation completely lacking in common sense (Lambda's letter mystery in Ep5, for instance). If Ryukishi actually was the genius he would seem to be, this would be acceptable, but I never want anyone to forget that the man considered brain parasites to be an intelligent twist.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.

This seems to confirm Shkanon, at first glance.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

However, it looks as though very few people have actually taken that key, returned to the previous episodes, and put it in the keyhole.

This, however, would imply something else entirely, as literally the only thing we've done for the past few months is talk about how Shkanon works/doesn't work. Does anyone know if the Japanese are doing the same?

And what the hell does he even mean here? Is there something anyone can come up with that fits these criteria? Something that we've already discovered, but that we haven't thought about at all? Any guesses/suggestions?

Of course, if you believe my above interpretation he's just trying to drive up hype so he can get enough people to buy the game on the day of release before they realize he was lying the whole time. However, at that point, he'll have long fled to Hokkaido with his bags of money to enjoy his retirement and hide from angry fans.

Originally Posted by Ryukishi07

To go even further, one could say that all things that appeared after EP5 are not hints, but part of the answer.

Aaaaand more Shkanon confirmation. This, to me, along with the game intro for Ep6, is what really seals it.

If there are no hints in Ep6, Shkanon is true, since we're hit in the head over and over again with it, again and again and again and again and again.

God, this sucks. -_-

[Judoh]

You know, this is one thing in particular that REALLY disappoints me. If this interview confirms anything, it's that Battler's sin has to do with Shannon, and even though that's been obvious for a while, it's disappointing BECAUSE it's been so obvious for a while.

If you're writing a mystery but are pretty much incapable of surprising people... you've failed. You've failed miserably.

If his sin had to do with another character entirely, then, well... that'd be unexpected and interesting, and would have to rely on subtle clues rather than HITTING US IN THE HEAD OVER AND OVER WITH THE ANSWER FOR FOUR ENTIRE EPISODES.

Well he said that quick readers would get it in episode 4. There is not much of Shannon in episode 4, but there is a lot of Maria and Ange in episode 4. So I was thinking of the sin against Maria thing instead. If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it. And he just said he was trying to make a gap for the people who don't have an answer and those that do so he's definitely not writing it all for Shannon.

I think your making a fuss over nothing.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I was referring to the "Battler never sees them both at the same time, therefore they are the same person" part.

Most of your theory comes from the beginning of EP2 and the Ange scenes of EP4, right? Those scenes can be explained without using Shkanon.

For example, what if Shannon and Beatrice were the same person, and Kanon knew about it? There are definitely clues that Shannon is Beatrice (the promise, etc).
The butterfly brooch represents the "love" that Shannon learned, and she wanted to share that with Kanon. But he didn't believe in the power of love, so he rejected it.

And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.

Wait, so nothing can count as a hint unless it gives absolute proof of the thing it's hinting towards? At the very least, I hope you see that, in retrospect, Shkanontrice is probably the easiest way to explain the opening of EP2, and that it makes more sense in that part than any theory I've seen so far (and gives a good reason for all of the individual scenes, instead of calling them "general foreshadowing").

Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George? Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes? Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time? Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone? Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3? Is it really a coincidence that no one sees the two of them together in the entire opening, and that Kanon appears in front of Shannon whenever she's mulling something over inside her head? Why did Shannon feel the need to smash the mirror? Why did she even think that a witch would be able to help her in the first place?

Shkanontrice can be used to give answers to all of these things, and it's very hard to do it with different theory.

@Kaisos Erranon:
If you really feel that way, I don't see why you want to spend your time complaining about it here.
Believe it or not, there are people with other opinions than yours.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it.

Exactly.

He's said that "Ep6 gives a nearly definitive answer"... again, as I understand it, there's basically nothing going on in Ep6 but the love trials and Batter being the Kinzo, and constant Shkanon spoonfeeding.

If it had anything to do with Maria, I'd think we'd get a little more focus on her...

Also, he's saying Ep4 because that's about the time when that scene with Shannon on the beach got put into context, and when the whole pony theory thing first started to gain in strength and popularity.

And yes, I am aware that I'm overreacting a little.

[Jan-Poo]

Wow, Ryuukishi made a MMORPG comparison to explain the situation! This guy must actually playing (or have played) one of them to understand what it means °°

Ryuukishi: I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.

This isn't really a good point in favor of the "troll" theory, is it?
Nothing suggests it from his interview, and he keeps telling that more and more people are getting to the truth. And no, Erika can't have anything to do with the "truth" he's speaking off.

that's all that I was looking forward to:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1411

But before that I hope to see an interview by Ryukishi. If he'll say that at this point everyone has pretty much understood what's going on, that will be a good point in favor of the shkannontrice theory. However if he'll say that EP7 will be a huge surprise rather than a confirmation, that will be a point in favor of the troll theory.

lastly

Ryuukishi: That may have been the first time the word appeared, but the epilogue of EP1 did say that "the jaw was the only part of Maria's corpse that could be found". Furthermore, in EP4, it was shown that Ange's boat was unable to dock at the mansion's harbor and that the remains of the mansion were missing, so it should be possible to link that with "something happened that changed the terrain". So, the words "Rokkenjima Explosion accident" are not a hint, but one of the answers. To go even further, one could say that all things that appeared after EP5 are not hints, but part of the answer.

Ryukishi... you made my day XD

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

And I've already talked about how the chained closed room can work without Shkanon. In fact, if it's right then Shkanon is denied, because Shannon and Kanon (er, Sayo) can't be inside and outside of the room at the same time.

My interpretation of the chained closed rooms is based on the premise of the boiler room door leading to the courtyard not being locked, as said by Genji in Episode 1. It doesn't need Shannon or Kanon as a culprit (well this is the episode which culprit is different than in the others). This has Genji as an accomplice but I think it can be told by someone else painting magic circles too.

Spoiler for EP3 First twilight:

All the servants gathered to Kinzo's study, where they were killed with the shotguns found there. Genji was probably left alive first to help carry the corpses and paint the magic circles, but was killed afterwards in the honored guest room. The culprit closed the doors in reverse order where she finally ended up at the boiler room. Kinzo's corpse was carried there and burned. The culprit escaped to the courtyard through the other door in the boiler room, which wasn't locked.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well he said that quick readers would get it in episode 4. There is not much of Shannon in episode 4, but there is a lot of Maria and Ange in episode 4. So I was thinking of the sin against Maria thing instead. If he was saying that all the hints have to point to Shannon than there would be no point to it. And he just said he was trying to make a gap for the people who don't have an answer and those that do so he's definitely not writing it all for Shannon.

I'd like to hear a story where the sin is about Maria, she is quite a central character anyway. But I'm falling towards Shannon or Jessica for some reason, can't really think of any real evidence (well "I'll come for you on a white horse" ).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If you really feel that way, I don't see why you want to spend your time complaining about it here.

I put my comments in a spoiler box with a warning that I would be complaining. You could have ignored the post if you didn't want to read it. Just saying.

And I'm bitching here because I feel as though the author has betrayed that Trust he keeps talking about by presenting an implausible and unsolvable story. Understandably, I'm a little upset.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Believe it or not, there are people with other opinions than yours.

Pot calling the metaphorical kettle black, much?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And no, Erika can't have anything to do with the "truth" he's speaking off.

The Erika-doesn't-exist bit only explains the final red, not the closed room mystery, which is what he's talking about in this interview.

That has nothing to do with Erika existing or not.

[Jan-Poo]

So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George?

Shannon was NOT reluctant to fall in love with George. Before that intro she didn't even notice he was a member of the opposite sex. And Jessica pointed out that friends that don't even notice that are often the best couples. Battler repeated this in episode 5 as well. Eva did put pressure on her, and she is a maid for the family also and there was a marriage meeting going on at the time. So to her it would be HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes

They're related

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time?

As for the subhuman thing I have suggested a reason for that too. Racism. That can easily explain why Kanon thinks he has no soul and why he's not human. But there is nothing wrong with him thinking that way.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone?

As for the Beatrice thing Battler explained why Beatrice can float around before October 4th

I can't deny the existence of the Beatrice in this place. The number of people on this island outside the game board... in other words, before October 4 1986, has not been proclaimed in red. Therefore, there's nothing strange about Beatrice existing here.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3?

Genji is also described like that in episode 3. Shannon is the only one they say is not trained to walk that way. So What's your point?

[LyricalAura]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood, chrono, but this Fukuin House == acting school thing... That's sort of a keystone of your theory, isn't it? What's your basis for it? Knox 8, solutions using clues that have not been presented are forbidden.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.

So is Kanonzo, though, and that is something that hardly anybody's taken back and applied to the first four episodes.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So we agree that ghosterika is certainly not what he's talking about, while the shkanontrice theory is quite plausibly something that he might be referring to.

At this point, yes, he's definitely talking about that. Which makes Umineko possibly the worst mystery I've ever read.

I'm not trying to troll here by saying this. It's my honest opinion.

See, the thing about Shkanontrice is that while it makes a lot of sense within the context of the game, it relies on a version of DID that has nothing to do with how it actually works. Furthermore, DID in general is one of those mental disorders, along with amnesia, that automatically has a huge negative impact on the quality of the work it's present in. I would go so far as to say that any story that relies heavily on DID or amnesia or anything of that kind and is presented in a way that shows that no research on the disorder whatsoever was done is always terrible.

This, in addition to Umineko's magic/fake scenes (the only purpose of which is to confuse the reader and obfuscate mysteries that would probably be otherwise relatively simple in construction), several types of pointless colored text (did we really NEED blue? Or gold, whatever it is?), pretentious rewriting of the Knox rules (how clever), and above all characters that continue to show up but don't do anything other than bloat the story needlessly (what was the point of Gaap in the first place!?) make Umineko both incredibly hard to read and very poorly exectued.

And yet I still hold a little shred of hope in my heart that it will all turn out for the best, which is why I'm still here. -_-

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Shkanontrice can be used to give answers to all of these things, and it's very hard to do it with different theory.

Not really. There have been a ton of counter-theories posted here before.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why was Shannon so reluctant to fall in love with George? Why did Kanon feel obligated to not fall in love with Jessica until the last scenes? Why did they both consider themselves to be subhuman for most of the time?

Author Theory. The author of the stories has put more "love" in each successive game. Just compare EP1 Kanon to EP6, he's completely different. This can be explained by the author learning more about each character after each game, and developing personalities accordingly.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why did both Shannon and Kanon see an invisible Beatrice floating around someone?

Kanon knows Shannon is Beatrice. Both of them can see an invisible Beatrice that way.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Why is Kanon's entrance described as "absolutely silent" both here and even more ridiculously in EP3?

Is there a problem with silently entering a room? Is that even a mystery?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Is it really a coincidence that no one sees the two of them together in the entire opening, and that Kanon appears in front of Shannon whenever she's mulling something over inside her head?

Author theory, sort of. If you're Ryukishi, and you wanted to troll your fans, you would leave open more than one possibility, right? Leaving open more interpretations makes the mystery last longer.

Why did Shannon feel the need to smash the mirror? Why did she even think that a witch would be able to help her in the first place?

If Shannon is Beatrice, then she would want to create the Illusion of the Witch, right? It makes no sense for a witch to start casting spells if a mirror that blocks magic is on the island. So she destroyed it to keep up the illusion.
Maybe Shannon was Beatrice from the start. Kinzo forced her to be Beatrice under his experiments. While this may coincide with Shkanon a bit, there is no reason for Kanon to be Beatrice too.

Shkanon isn't confirmed. I think it's just a huge trap in the end.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

See, the thing about Shkanontrice is that while it makes a lot of sense within the context of the game, it relies on a version of DID that has nothing to dow with how it actually works. Furthermore, DID in general is one of those mental disorders, along with amnesia, that automatically has a huge negative impact on the quality of the work it's present in. I would go so far as to say that any story that relies heavily on DID or amnesia or anything of that kind and is presented in a way that shows that no research on the disorder whatsoever was done is always terrible.

To be completely fair to chrono's theory, as I understand it, he's not actually suggesting that Sayo has DID. He's saying that she's deliberately playacting in two or three different roles, and that they only appear to be DID because the illusion scenes have presented those roles as separate people.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

My interpretation of the chained closed rooms is based on the premise of the boiler room door leading to the courtyard not being locked, as said by Genji in Episode 1. It doesn't need Shannon or Kanon as a culprit (well this is the episode which culprit is different than in the others). This has Genji as an accomplice but I think it can be told by someone else painting magic circles too.

Ah, sorry, it must have been the way I worded it. I meant the chain-locked rooms from EP1, EP5, and EP6.

But that's another good point. EP3's first twilight kills off both Shannon and Kanon right at the start. Yet we see their ghosts at the very end. Shkanon can't explain that, because if both Kanon and Shannon are confirmed dead in red (which they are) then Sayo can't be alive at all. So what do ghost-Kanon and revived-Shannon represent?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

To be completely fair to chrono's theory, as I understand it, he's not actually suggesting that Sayo has DID. He's saying that she's deliberately playacting in two or three different roles, and that they only appear to be DID because the illusion scenes have presented those roles as separate people.

But he's also said that Sayo has "created" these personalities inside her head, and the way in which these roles interact and have their own goals, etc, sounds exactly like how many fictional stories (incorrectly) present DID.

Either way, it's still not a very good twist to this story, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

But that's another good point. EP3's first twilight kills off both Shannon and Kanon right at the start. Yet we see their ghosts at the very end. Shkanon can't explain that, because if both Kanon and Shannon are confirmed dead in red (which they are) then Sayo can't be alive at all. So what do ghost-Kanon and revived-Shannon represent?

Shannon and Kanon are dead, but both the original 'Sayo' personality and the "Beatrice" personality are still alive, is how the theory goes.