2010-01-31, 13:30 | Link #1201 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
He doesn't have to die. He can become the head of the family. If he's not in financial danger, he "wins" over his siblings. There's no point in killing him. There's no point in killing anyone. The only reason that could possibly make Kyrie kill everyone is "she's insane." That's ridiculous.
|
2010-01-31, 13:32 | Link #1202 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
To me, this looks a plea to understand why each scene was presented in white text. Even fantasy scenes have an intent behind them. You're free to interpret Beato's ranting on the telephone in Episode 4 as a fantasy, but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility of understanding what she was trying to convey to Battler through that fantasy. |
|
2010-01-31, 13:52 | Link #1203 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
WHo said that she killed people because she was crazy. Don't you get that the whole Umineko was talking about family bonds. Don't you see that Beatrice was acting as a judge on Ushiromiya family from the beginning. Can't you see that everything Beatrice urging the Ushiromiya family to do was to solve the epitaph and took everyone to take refuge in Kwadorian? Can't you see that Beatrice made a promise with Maria to take her to Golden Land and such that she had to implement her promise no matter what? Damned. Why were people still saying Battler's sin was forgetting the white horse promise, saying George murdered the whole family for the sake of him and Shannon's love, saying that Kinzo raping Jessica or Shannon such that she developed DID and it was Beatrice? Do you people just look for a plausible explanation but not the only truth? Why can't you see the link between Real Beatrice, Kinzo, Maria, epitaph, final disaster, 07151129, 10 ton gold, the deceased Kinzo's beloved Beatrice and 1967 Beatrice? (I am probably getting over-excited. )
__________________
Last edited by ijriims; 2010-01-31 at 14:21. |
|
2010-01-31, 14:05 | Link #1205 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
I will suffice for that already. Even you tried to say something like Beatrice as a killer for love, I am just looking for someone like you. There are something which could be proven wrong in my theories like Kyrie being Beatrice. However, I am quite convinued that no matter who Beatrice is, her motive would be close to what I have posited. Usually people advocated theories which separated the real Beatrice (usually posited as Shannon or Jessica) and the old Beatrices (1952 one, 1967 one), that is quite wrong in my eyes since every scene given by Ryukishi07 should got connected together in the end and that would make a good story. (I probably often choose theories based on my artistic taste rather than on reason)
__________________
|
|
2010-01-31, 14:09 | Link #1206 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
I don't think the issue most people take with your idea is what motivates Beatrice or any of the relationships, but the shoehorning of Kyrie into the role when evidence suggests other candidates with equal or greater strength. The inflexibility of assigning a culprit and constructing everything around that means people tend not to pay attention to your more valid points because they think it's all just related to one thing.
There's lots of people who believe Kyrie is a potential culprit. There's lots of people who think "Beatrice" might be acting out of a misguided or tragic love. But there's relatively few people who think the two are one and the same, and the evidence is not obvious or conclusive no matter how many times you present it. |
2010-01-31, 14:20 | Link #1207 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
IF Ryukishi07 did use DID or something alike in the end, then I would probably stop reading his third series, and probably many would stop as well.
__________________
|
|
2010-01-31, 15:11 | Link #1208 | ||||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, it's been clear in Kinzo's portrayal from the beginning that there was a conflict between a "loving" Kinzo who just wanted to see his beloved Beatrice again and a "violent" Kinzo who wanted to keep her imprisoned. As I was saying to Kitsu, just because he was appearing in fantasy scenes doesn't mean we can immediately write off all of his character development. Quote:
As for why she didn't tell anyone, go read the wiki article on long-term sexual abuse of children by parental figures, particularly the part about psychological effects. Low self-esteem, guilt, self-blame. Selective amnesia about abuse incidents. Disassociative identity disorder. The symptoms vary by case, but they're all amplified the longer the abuse continues. Disassociation is not unbelievable in cases like this, it's frequent. I'd like to point out something else. Shannon has been on the island for ten years, far longer than normal, even though she apparently has been making plenty of money and should have been able to strike out on her own. Possibly she stayed for psychological reasons like fear of Kinzo, but if not, it follows that Kinzo had some means of keeping her from leaving. Doesn't that line up with Beato's claim that she was trapped on the island for a long time, and that she only regained her power recently? I don't know what method Kinzo might have used, but I could speculate baselessly that he wasn't actually paying her. Quote:
In the same scene I quoted to Kitsu earlier, Ange said something interesting about the first twilight. "Humans have a bad habit of taking two unrelated events and forcibly creating a relationship between them." I've been saying something similar for a long time about the magic circles. There is not one speck of evidence that shows the magic circles were drawn by the culprit, but everyone just assumes they were because they showed up at some of the crime scenes. Regarding the two Beatos in Episode 6, you're conflating the meta relationship with the board relationship. On the board, Big Sister Beato only exists in fantasy scenes. She represents a collection of rumors, pranks, and stories, not an actual person. What you're claiming is equivalent to saying that Battler must be Little Sister Beato's father on the game board because she called him Father in the meta world. Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-01-31 at 15:27. |
||||
2010-01-31, 15:16 | Link #1209 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
|
Quote:
And what "cheap tricks" does Shannontrice have to use? At worst, there's the whole First Twilight First Episode thing which has been beaten to death, but I hardly think that's a "cheap" trick at all. Meanwhile, you're claiming your theory does not use DID, but how in the world is that possible when you're claiming that the most rational, ruthless, anti-witch person on the island is doing things out of love and the protection of family? |
|
2010-02-01, 00:29 | Link #1210 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Interesting...interesting... In some people's eyes, Kyrie is the most rational, ruthless, anti-witch person despite her defending Maria everytime people talk about her hobby and her intense love to Rudolf for 18 years (rational? how can loving a guy who abandoned you after you miscarried for 18 years be rational?) and "miscarried" child. A person without intense emotion would never do such thing. No wonder Ryu07 said without love it cannot be seen.
And the big-sis-Beatrice was a real person since she was also the one who gave the brooch to Shannon, unless you thought that Shannon bought herself a brooch with her alternative personality Beatrice. Or you thought that the whole brooch thing (along with Shannon dating with George) was completely faked by meta-Beatrice. Done. It is certain that for some of you no matter what clues or script from SN I show, Kyrie is still a downright rational, cool-blooded, nonloving person and Kinzo is a crazy, lustful, evil, dominating grandfather. Ange could not accept Eva would be unwilling to kill Hideyoshi and George no matter what others said to her until she sympathized with Eva's situation. For some of you, you can just treat my characterization of Kyrie and Kinzo as the King's new clothes, I don't mind. And we shall see who shall be the one laughing in the end. For the others' side, Go furnish the Shannontrice theory or whatever theory you have rather than arguing with me what kind of a person Kyrie could not be. At least show that you can solve EP3, without resorting to DID. Everyone works for their best, okay?
__________________
Last edited by ijriims; 2010-02-01 at 04:51. |
2010-02-01, 01:35 | Link #1211 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
I just read through the part where Erika tried to confirm everyone's locations, and I don't understand how this fails to kill the Shkannon theory completely.
The first twilight victims are all in the rooms they were found in. The people in the room neighboring the cousins' room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Hideyoshi. Meta Battler was uncomfortable with repeating "Everyone else (excluding Kinzo) is in the cousins' room." However, he told Erika and noted mentally that he would be perfectly willing to repeat that Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room. It wasn't outright stated in red, but it might as well have been unless you claim that even Battler's internal monologue that Erika had no access to was bluffing. So how can Shkannon work when the two of them are in different rooms at the same time? And then: I acknowledge that all other people (excluding Kinzo) are in the cousins' room. Regardless of Shkannon, this certainly erases Erika -- because although she excluded Kinzo from "all other people," she never excluded herself. EDIT: Erases her, or locks her in the cousins' room with everyone else. But if she's in the cousins' room, she can't be out in the hallway sealing doors or investigating. Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-01 at 02:16. |
2010-02-01, 01:46 | Link #1213 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
|
Quote:
Pedo-Kinzo? Gimme moar! I wonder about Shkannon though… Being both pedo- and homo- could be a tough combo to pull. On the other hand, as Battler likes to say, I wouldn’t put it past Grandfather. Poor George and Jessica. Now I finally understand that one line in “La divina tragedia” which never made much sense. It turns out Kinzo was actually singing: “Sacrifice ship to God”. Oh deeezaaayaa, indeed.
__________________
|
|
2010-02-01, 01:58 | Link #1214 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
I was referring to Beato ranting at Battler in Episode 4, and various remarks she made to other characters in other episodes. For instance, the part in Episode 2(?) where she told Shannon that her relationship with George would definitely lose its appeal the first time George looked at her with lust in his eyes.
|
2010-02-01, 02:47 | Link #1216 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
Quote:
It could also be what she thinks of Battler when he thinks about groping some girl's breasts; especially in that flashback scene where he admits to her progenitor about wanting to do so. Anyways, I wanted to post because I was wondering about this theory that you guys are discussing regarding "The Culprit." Don't you think there could still be more than one culprit? Although I mean culprit as in people going around doing strange things, not necessarily murder. (There's most likely more than one murderer, for example in EP3, Eva going nuts at the end and shooting Battler.) In the same way that there are multiple Beatrices, there are multiple culprits. But each different culprit's actions accumulate onto Beatrice so it looks like she's 'fickle.' For example... I think this is everyone's suspicion too; Jan Poo once suggested the only unattached girls for Battler to love is Maria and Kumasawa. Now, I was not so quick to dismiss Kumasawa... but at the same time, I didn't think it was romantic love too. I've ascribed a lot of what Virgilia does to Kumasawa. What if Kumasawa was really upset at the death of '67 Beatrice? Enough to try and 'resurrect' her by playing the pranks (with Kinzo's blessing of course)? This could explain the epitaph; Beatrice will be revived... but then she will sleep forever. Perhaps she at the same time cared about Battler and thought that Beatrice would be suitable for Battler, in an imaginary, 'magic' way. Afterall, Kumasawa IS the only other girl... er... woman... er... old lady... to offer her boobs up for him to feel. 8) With her as the first mastermind behind one or two of the Beatrices, she could have recruited both Shannon and Jessica to play the parts, though they may not be aware of why they are doing so. In addition, her motives may not actually be nefarious. Could it be that Kumasawa is responsible for the Witch Legend Beatrice, Shannon is responsible for branching off Moetrice, and Jessica is the one who plays the Beatrice with the short skirt for everyone else to see? The other things I've suspected is that Kinzo may have simply loved Beatrice as a daughter. The only times people said she was his lover was in rumors and we never got any evidence of any funny stuff between the two. None from Nanjo, Kumasawa or Genji. I smell a Ryukishi trap here, like the one he laid down for us about 'Furniture.' Perhaps also Kinzo had lined her up as a successor for the family too... who knows. Finally, it seems clear to me that there are at least two culprits now, with the proof from EP6 that people are faking deaths. It's said that the people willingly chose to lie down and pretend they were dead, although I wouldn't think it was necessarily a prank like the text said. (Maybe they were given sedatives though.) This is why they all chose nice rooms with beds, is what the game told us. And then someone else comes along and really kills them, as people who stay motionless on purpose or under drugs are really, really easy targets. Especially for gunshots, like in some of the episodes. The only thing is in some of the episodes culprit #2 has already come along and moved the bodies elsewhere by the time anyone is aware, like in EP1. And in some episodes culprit #2 may not have the ability to move bodies, like in EP3. It seems less likely that the first culprit who asked people to play dead also killed them, because like in EP5, the people moved... and then were killed later. Theoretically it could be just one guy... but it seems like culprit #1 is constant throughout the episodes but culprit #2 is not, owing to different methods of murder and different results. Anyways, sorry if this has been discussed before, although I think I've read every page up to now and hadn't seen it brought up yet... |
|
2010-02-01, 03:35 | Link #1217 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
|
Some people were asking when I'll be continuing the summaries. I think I sort of understand the Japanese of the logic error now and exams are done so I should have some up later.
Edit - Just realized the part where I stopped wasn't THE logic error that becomes the issue but a minor one regarding Battler trying to hurry the game along.
__________________
Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2010-02-01 at 06:10. |
2010-02-01, 09:00 | Link #1218 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2010-02-01, 11:23 | Link #1219 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
|
Quote:
BTW, I suppose you are not using Geogre as mastermind in this episode, are you?
__________________
|
|
2010-02-01, 11:47 | Link #1220 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
As far as Episode 6 has some hints regarding the shkanon theory, that monologue + logic error red galore are hardly possible to avoid either. That and Erika's POV in Episode 5 (unless again, people claim Bernkastel is doing the moron, using an unreliable POV instead of Erika who is next to both Shannon and Kanon for several instances).
__________________
|
|
|
|