GS3: Kira vs. the mathematicians?

[neodrag38]

Programming data doesn't make you a math whiz. There's a difference between being a programmer and a mathematician. Including when the MS you are in should at least record some data for future usage. And the very notion that every grunt should be easily taken down based on sort of bull "average" still is a bit strange when in terms of reality one pilot can't be exactly the same as another with there should be those with performance beyond that of a simply an average. But again grunts are basically made faceless fleshies not possessing any thought nor semblance of common sense in terms of combat tactics in GSD.

So it remains that Kira wasn't given those programming skills of his to make it seem like there was some depth to combat and such when it all simply still results to one sided bouts. Funny how the bulk of the time all we are given when it comes to characters preparing for combat in GSD is simply a seemingly given image of them just "winging it" rather than trying to come up with a plan or squad formation ahead of time. Especially when after Shinn and Rey showed themselves to be willing to do some thinking and review of the enemy to gain victory that this part of their character is thrown out when doing so in the past has worked out in their favor.

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

VERY good post, Cloudedge! But to program something like that and model ye average grunt movement by statistical algorithms and whatnot...Kira must have been a damn good mathematician himself...at which point I must ask WHERE THE HELL DID HE LEARN ALL THAT BY AGE 16?!

I think in SEED Eps 1, it was implied that he was indeed a genius programmer... he was working with some profession on some project if I remember right?

In anycase, programming an aim bot is actually A LOT more easier/feasible then changing a running OS in REAL TIME (without making some part of your gundam halt or explode...)

Actually, it is not that difficult consider similar program such as missle guidance system that track and follow down heat source already exist... the few things that Kira need to know is the current location, velocity and acceleration of the target, and update it as frequent as possible.. at which point it's only a matter of how smart are you to make your algorithm fast enough to re-calculate each target as many times as possible w/o compromising with system resources....

By the way, my school's computer science program is actually under the Math Faculty. You'd be suprise how similar Computer Science is to Math at the theoritical level...

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by cloudedge

I think in SEED Eps 1, it was implied that he was indeed a genius programmer... he was working with some profession on some project if I remember right?

In anycase, programming an aim bot is actually A LOT more easier/feasible then changing a running OS in REAL TIME (without making some part of your gundam halt or explode...)

Some project where I guess he was working on the OS for this little mech that him and others were working on.

Agreed on the second part.

Actually, it is not that difficult consider similar program such as missle guidance system that track and follow down heat source already exist... the few things that Kira need to know is the current location, velocity and acceleration of the target, and update it as frequent as possible.. at which point it's only a matter of how smart are you to make your algorithm fast enough to re-calculate each target as many times as possible w/o compromising with system resources....

And it wouldn't be that difficult to imagine that the Freedom would have an OS that allows it to gather data when it comes to past enemy performance. So its not like you would have to gather the data into your head.

By the way, my school's computer science program is actually under the Math Faculty. You'd be suprise how similar Computer Science is to Math at the theoritical level...

Yet they still aren't the same. Being a whiz at programming doesn't equate to being a mathematician. They still have their own distinct practices where being a pro on one doesn't mean so for the other.

[servitude]

Model building is as much statistics as it is maths but its more stats because its rarely a perfect model.. And isn't the businessweek extract nothing more than something on data mining? A statistical method? Destiny Plan doesn't bahave the same way since it mines then determines what's best for the individual rather than predicts what is best.

And Destiny Plan is like some country invading another and say look my culture is superior... So you must follow it... Period... And history is always written by the victorious. Period.... Whather Destiny Plan would have actually benefitted everyone depends on your interpretation of best.

If everything is in perfect order and harmony and society functions like a well oiled machine, it would have been great for humankind. Less pollution, less wastage, more efficiency, may do away with currency, push the right people to the right jod. But at the expense of certain individuals freedom to choice.

Some might argue it'll end up making a better society and so the total benefits outweigh the cost. And so its the second best course of action since first best doesn't exist.

So its actually good Destiny Plan..

On the other hand, imposing your views and desires on other people forcefully is just wrong. I suppose that's why they called it Freedom Gundam... Fighting to preserve it.

[servitude]

BTW, maths is part of programming... Its not neccessarily top priority just a way of developing one's mind so as to accept certain principles or ordering which is paramount in maths. Maths works in steps, it is ordered. There's always a procedure and/ or method to a problem. THere may be multiple solutions but there is one and its always structured. Each solution has its own steps. Its the mahematician's role to find the best and most efficient solution. Programmers need to behave like that.. They can't go chaotic and just write a prgram without direction or order. THey need to find the most efficient codes.. SOmething maths teach them..

Anyway almost all course these days require maths.. The best learning institutions in the world requires their students to do maths be it for social sciences, comp science, IT, economics, marketing, commerce even pshycology... That's the new world... Deterministic, ordered and structured.. Quantitive dominates qualitiative results.

Kira is a good programmer.. That doesn't make him a good mathematician... The best mathematician in the world is in? The education business, professors, PHD, lecturers, etc... and... code breakers....

[Copy-cat]

refering back to the comment about "destiny plan zone"....

because it wouldn't work. this is one of those "all or nothing" plan. either every one is the same or every one is different. just like communism could have possibly worked if the whole world was communist, other wise there were all these greedy little peeves who tried to escape to the place where they had a choice.. now, had they not had a choice, they probably would've tried to learn to live with it.

if you had no where to escape to, you wouldn't try. if you had no idea that escape was possible, you wouldn't try. there would be no "the grass is always greener on the other side of the road" phenomenon, because there simply wouldn't be an "other side". and people would adapt. besides, if durandal claimed that he could figure out the best possible future through genetic make-up (the good old nature vs. nurture argument), tell me something: how is ensuring a better future for someone who is most fitted to it be considered bad? how is making sure that a child has 100% chance of growing up and working on a job they enjoy with a stable income be considered bad? really, people just hear "pre-determined job" and they beging to think of the caste system.

caste and destiny plan isn't the same. they're different. Destiny Plan

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

because it wouldn't work. this is one of those "all or nothing" plan. either every one is the same or every one is different. just like communism could have possibly worked if the whole world was communist, other wise there were all these greedy little peeves who tried to escape to the place where they had a choice.. now, had they not had a choice, they probably would've tried to learn to live with it.

But then, how can you prove Destiny Plan creates peace at all?

You said that it can't work on a small scale, which means it has never been tested.

And you want world-wide control to make the plan work, but how can you prove the peace comes from the Destiny Plan instead of the world-wide control?

If people had no choice, there won't be wars period. Destiny Plan would be absolutely useless because world peace would be obtained BEFORE Destiny Plan even starts.

So what's the difference between Destiny Plan, and a plan where I conquer the world and rule it with an iron fist? In both cases there is world peace, and in both cases the people of the world have no choice and is threatened with death for disobedience.

What's wrong with Me ruling the world? Peace will spread across the land after all, and like Destiny Plan I won't destroy nations unless they really piss me off, by trying to destroy world peace... (i.e. me.)

#########
Do you want to know something about human nature?
We like to have choice, even if we have to charge through machine gun fire to get it.

My Kingdom of Peace would last as long as the Destiny Plan, which is about two years. People would NOT want to be told what to do with their lives.

One more thing.

had they not had a choice, they probably would've tried to learn to live with it

What you are saying is nothing new, but is what every tyrant in history thought of at some point. And I can tell you it DOESN'T WORK. Rule with violence will cause downfall with violence. There is NO exceptions.

[Schneizel]

Come on kids let's go read Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, The Island, and 1984.

[Copy-cat]

ah... but there never was time in written and recorded history where a tyrant ruled ALL of humanity.... which is why, none of those cases could be argued, because, you see, people did have a choice, and did have "the other side of the road" to gape at. so they had a model of what they wanted but didn't have, which allowed them to think that something could be done to fix the situation they're in.

as i said, the destiny plan, just like communism, COULDN'T work on a smaller scale. because people see the forbidden fruit out side the border and begin preaching of how they need to aquire it.

if there is no "outside the border" then how could they possibly have grounds to preach on?

as for humans having a choice.... well, i'd go with bullet and knife trying to make it so that some of us wouldn't have a choice, because some of us clearly do not deserve that right.

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

Come on kids let's go read Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, The Island, and 1984.

haha someone said it before me

had they not had a choice, they probably would've tried to learn to live with it
...

there would be no "the grass is always greener on the other side of the road" phenomenon

Refer to Fahrenheit 451 and 1984, they best illustrates this problem. The truth is, despite the fact that they will learn to live with it, they will still feel discontent... even if the word "freedom" is erased from every language and everyone's memory, human will still feel the need to be free, and rebel for choice.

There would still be "the grass is always greener on the other side" effect, except this time the other side exist in the people's mind/ideals. Destiny plan might strip you of choice, but it still have not strip you of the power to think/imagine/feel/and evision.

refering back to the comment about "destiny plan zone"....

because it wouldn't work. this is one of those "all or nothing" plan. either every one is the same or every one is different.

why does it have to be an all or nothing plan?

just like communism could have possibly worked if the whole world was communist

actually communism wouldn't have work even if the whole world was communist, and that's because communism over estimated human nature. Human nature is LAZY and need reward to be motivated, in the communism city, people who work hard or people who slack off will get paided the same amount. Doctors who educated themselves or a slacking farm boy would get the same paid. The problem in communism is that it took out the motivation for people to strive.

how is ensuring a better future for someone who is most fitted to it be considered bad? how is making sure that a child has 100% chance of growing up and working on a job they enjoy with a stable income be considered bad? really, people just hear "pre-determined job" and they beging to think of the caste system.

I think I have discuss this in the why did GSD failed thread, I'll quote some of my points from there: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...t=27039&page=9

Ok, let me make this clear... so say your gene score something like:

156 IQ
85/100 Communication Skill
55/100 Analytical Skill
75/100 Eye Hand Coordeination
etc etc etc

How do you translate this result to a profession? There is infinate combination of scores and not everyone of them is mapped to a profession. At some point in the calculation, there will be some "interpretation" that "translate" the score to the end results (your profession)... the problem is can we believe in the translation algorithm? I truely can't see how to do these 4 crucial steps that is the core of Destiny Plan:

1. Quantify A peron's talent/potential/personalities/traits
2. Accurately predict how much of the potential skills will actually be aquired by the person
3. Translate an infinately combination of talent/potential/personalities/traits into a profession that you can prove to be the most suited for the person without subjective interpretation.
------------------------------------
4. and after the first 3 step, still balance the economic of labour supply/demand
i.e. so we have 500 ppl qualify for being a pop star, but we only really need 5, who should we choose? and what should the 495 ppl who get rejected be?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

as for humans having a choice.... well, i'd go with bullet and knife trying to make it so that some of us wouldn't have a choice, because some of us clearly do not deserve that right.

...And thus, you just started a war. Congratulations.


Did you remember what was the point of Destiny Plan? To bring Peace? Or to enforce your own ideals on others?

[Copy-cat]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

...And thus, you just started a war. Congratulations.


Did you remember what was the point of Destiny Plan? To bring Peace? Or to enforce your own ideals on others?

to bring peace.

i'm just referring to what you said, when you mentioned that people would go out of their way to protect their freedom of choice.

i'm by no means saying the Destiny Plan is the best idea every and that it would work. the reality is, it wouldn't work, just like all the other forms of government, because when applied to the moronic masses of the human beings, which only strive to benefit themselves, the become used as tools. as tools for people to line their nests.

i'm just saying that It is completely illogical to consider Durandal to be evil simply because he came up with a new idea of a government. hurrah, so are the greeks evil now for coming up with democracy?

[cloudedge]

Originally Posted by Copy-cat

to bring peace.


i'm just saying that It is completely illogical to consider Durandal to be evil simply because he came up with a new idea of a government. hurrah, so are the greeks evil now for coming up with democracy?

Durandal is not evil because he propose a new idea of government... he is evil for forcing it upon other nations who does not wish to comply. He is evil because he would anniliate, army and civilian alike to people who do not comply to his ideal. He is evil not because DP won't work, he's evil because DP is a tool for him to increase his government's power hold on its citizen by ten thousand folds. DP is evil not because it would not work, but because it's an excuse for the government to power grab and manipulate their citizen's lives.

It's much like Bush Adminstration proposing for a bill for government agency to have the power to tap into any phoneline of private homes in the name of "war against terrorism"... in reality it's just another way for the government to invade our privacy. If there's something that Democracy has taught us, it's that a government body should not just rule its people, it should SERVE them.

[Epi]

So do you think that in GS3 the enemy side will be called FRACTIONS with their forces led by their dual mobile suits the CALCULUS and the ALGEBRA? Instead of going SEED, their pilots will go MATH which is in fact the next NEXT step in evolution?

[Mr_Paper]

Originally Posted by Epi

So do you think that in GS3 the enemy side will be called FRACTIONS with their forces led by their dual mobile suits the CALCULUS and the ALGEBRA? Instead of going SEED, their pilots will go MATH which is in fact the next NEXT step in evolution?

Don't give Bandai any ideas. >.>

I can see it now... "Gundam! It's fun to watch and educational at the same time!"

[cloudedge]

haha and maybe the grunts will be called: Theorem, Lemma, Axiom, and Corollary XD