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[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i wouldn't surrender.
i won.

Answer the question in an intellectually honest manner. You're a Palestinian youth. Your family's been living in the same house for generations. An Israeli plane drops leaflets saying your neighborhood is going to be leveled. The next day armored bulldozers come and knock down your house so they can build a new Israeli settlement. You and your family flee to a nearby Palestinian town. You meet an old friend of yours and tell him what happened. Turns out he's a member of Hamas now, and asks if you want to join. He's an old friend, and will not shoot you if you say no. What would you honestly do?

[thevil1]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

What would you have the Palestinians do then? Look at it from their perspective. They've been living on land for generations, then Israelis come along and force them off. They have no hope of standing up against Israel conventionally. What other options do they have? Remember, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.



No you wouldn't and you know it.

"All's fair in love and war". War is never justifiable, but to the extent that you can justify something, how do you justify that fact that they are shooting at civilians from behind civilians, then complain to the rest of the world saying "look what they are doing to us, they are killing innocent children" when that country (Israel) attacks back in self defense.
Killing civilians should never be used as an excuse, but also when you can't tell who's bad and good among the civilians, you don't have much of a choice.
In 2009, Israel attacked back (for self defense), but before they dropped bombs, they flew over and dropped leaf notes warning civilians of there up coming actions, and advising them to evacuate.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by thevil1

"All's fair in love and war". War is never justifiable, but to the extent that you can justify something, how do you justify that fact that they are shooting at civilians from behind civilians, then complain to the rest of the world saying "look what they are doing to us, they are killing innocent children" when that country (Israel) attacks back in self defense.
Killing civilians should never be used as an excuse, but also when you can't tell who's bad and good among the civilians, you don't have much of a choice.
In 2009, Israel attacked back (for self defense), but before they dropped bombs, they flew over and dropped leaf notes warning civilians of there up coming actions, and advising them to evacuate.

Proportionate response. More Americans were killed in Mexico in the past 10 years than Israel civilians have been killed by Palestinians total. Is America invading Mexico over it?

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by thevil1

"All's fair in love and war". War is never justifiable, but to the extent that you can justify something, how do you justify that fact that they are shooting at civilians from behind civilians, then complain to the rest of the world saying "look what they are doing to us, they are killing innocent children" when that country (Israel) attacks back in self defense.
Killing civilians should never be used as an excuse, but also when you can't tell who's bad and good among the civilians, you don't have much of a choice.
In 2009, Israel attacked back (for self defense), but before they dropped bombs, they flew over and dropped leaf notes warning civilians of there up coming actions, and advising them to evacuate.

Look at Lebannon, they bombed that place to kingdom come, they used banned weapons against civilians all in the name of killing hamas. They don't care about civilians. They shoot and indiscriminately kill civilians then aquit their soldiers of wrong doing, pretending justice has been served. I mean when you shoot a civ in the leg, then empty a clip into the civilian after you've neutralized the threat, it shows something other than care for civilians.

[thevil1]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Look at Lebannon, they bombed that place to kingdom come, they used banned weapons against civilians all in the name of killing hamas. They don't care about civilians. They shoot and indiscriminately kill civilians then aquit their soldiers of wrong doing, pretending justice has been served. I mean when you shoot a civ in the leg, then empty a clip into the civilian after you've neutralized the threat, it shows something other than care for civilians.

In your opinion, what/who do you consider a terrorist? I'm not going to go flame war on you, I'm just wondering your definition of a terrorist, and who would fall under that category.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Answer the question in an intellectually honest manner. You're a Palestinian youth. Your family's been living in the same house for generations. An Israeli plane drops leaflets saying your neighborhood is going to be leveled. The next day armored bulldozers come and knock down your house so they can build a new Israeli settlement. You and your family flee to a nearby Palestinian town. You meet an old friend of yours and tell him what happened. Turns out he's a member of Hamas now, and asks if you want to join. He's an old friend, and will not shoot you if you say no. What would you honestly do?

i can't answer your question with honesty, because your question is a blatantly dishonest depiction of events.
its a loaded question
its like asking someone "have you stopped beating your wife yet" and limiting them to a yes/no answer

We drop leaflets to worn people to get the hell out of areas where we conduct counter terrorist Military operations.
its to save the lives of people living there by warning them to get away.
not to make room for more settlements.

and the only reason why we even NEED to conduct Military operations in Palestinian civilian areas, is because thats where the militants hide.
and while its true that there was a time we used to bulldoze buildings, it was a retaliation move against Suicide bombings.
not to make room for more settlements.

every week you have Islamic terrorist of the same type that Hamas uses against us being carried out in Iraq, Iran (just today 10 people were killed), Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries all over the middle east.
i'm tired of people trying to pass the buck to us as if WE are the reason for the Suicidal kind of violence presented by elements like Hamas.
as if these people are desperate people who have nothing to lose so they carry on Suicide bombings against us.

P.S
the Palestinians NEED to surrender if they want things to improve.
the more they fight, the more damage they end up causing themselves (the Hamas take over of Gaza is a good example).

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Proportionate response. More Americans were killed in Mexico in the past 10 years than Israel civilians have been killed by Palestinians total. Is America invading Mexico over it?

Is the government of Mexico carrying out the attacks ?

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Look at Lebannon, they bombed that place to kingdom come, they used banned weapons against civilians all in the name of killing hamas. They don't care about civilians.

Lebanon, or at least Hizballah, attacked US
they crossed the boarder, attacked out patrol, killed several soldeirs and abducted their bodies (while claiming they are alive) and then opened fire on our northern towns.
all this happened without provocation.
thats a declaration of WAR for all intent and purpose.
and why should we care about enemy civilians more then they enemy himself does.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by thevil1

In your opinion, what/who do you consider a terrorist? I'm not going to go flame war on you, I'm just wondering your definition of a terrorist, and who would fall under that category.

After shooting an UNARMED civilian then going up to the civilian confirming that the civilian is indeed a civilian and then emptying an entire clip into that civilians SURE AS HELL DOESN'T make the civilian a terrorist. I really don't understand this assbackward logic that is being applied and implied here. I just need to ignore all you zionbots or else I'm going to have a rage aneurysm.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Oh yea he got compensated for killing the civilian too.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

After shooting an UNARMED civilian then going up to the civilian confirming that the civilian is indeed a civilian and then emptying an entire clip into that civilians SURE AS HELL DOESN'T make the civilian a terrorist. I really don't understand this assbackward logic that is being applied and implied here. I just need to ignore all you zionbots or else I'm going to have a rage aneurysm.

if the militants want to limit the deaths among their own civilians they should wear Uniforms.
they should also refrain from fighting in civilian populated areas.
if they can't do these things AND fight effectively at the same time, then they shouldn't fight at all

you can't expect us to care more about their civilians then THEY do

Oh yea he got compensated for killing the civilian too

and HE wasn't
HE went to jail
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4140586.stm

[Nosauz]

I hate all of you heartless pigs, there really isn't anything else to say... Who uses that bullshit logic, because they are more evil allows us to be as evil as they are justification? So as long as you don't commit a 6 million genocide it's ok, because your not the worst, or as long as you don't force incest on your captured civilians then your not the worst, or you don't burn alive children as they beg for mercy then your not the worst, your you only steal 1.1billion dollars then your not the worst. FUCK THAT. These are PEOPLE, living breathing PEOPLE. Like you and me, you and your zionbots are nothing more than sociopaths, when they say killing dogs and other small animals is a sympton of much greater evil, well not valueing HUMAN LIFE is a GREATER EVIL THAN THAT. I absolutely REFUSE to unignore you ever again, as I type this my faith in any peace in the Middle East has been completely shattered. Why can't bygones be bygones? Why can't we ignore the extremists, focus on rational talks, rational discussion. But instead no you insist that as long as Hezbollah or Hamas don't live up to your expectation of justice then you can do whatever you please to civilians as long as it's under what Hezbollah/Hamas have done. Christ sake, imagine if black people or heaven forbid native americans were any where near as vindictive as those in the middle east are... I seriously shudder at the lack of humanity, the "chosen people of god" really have.

[bladeofdarkness]

we don't care what standards and expectations Hamas or Hizballa live up to
we don't CARE what they do.
we don't care what they want.
i just want them to leave me and mine the fuck alone.
thats it.
thats ALL we want
we want, the collective middle east to just leave us the fuck alone.
Egypt has
Jordan has
hell, even Syria pretty much figured out that its in its best interest to leave us alone.
Lebanon (the country) was never even a factor until the Fatah, and later Hizballah set up shop.

leave us, alone.
you don't attack us, we don't attack you.
you attack us, and we will make you pay for it dearly.

thats it.

[thevil1]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

I hate all of you heartless pigs, there really isn't anything else to say... Who uses that bullshit logic, because they are more evil allows us to be as evil as they are justification? So as long as you don't commit a 6 million genocide it's ok, because your not the worst, or as long as you don't force incest on your captured civilians then your not the worst, or you don't burn alive children as they beg for mercy then your not the worst, your you only steal 1.1billion dollars then your not the worst. FUCK THAT. These are PEOPLE, living breathing PEOPLE. Like you and me, you and your zionbots are nothing more than sociopaths, when they say killing dogs and other small animals is a sympton of much greater evil, well not valueing HUMAN LIFE is a GREATER EVIL THAN THAT. I absolutely REFUSE to unignore you ever again, as I type this my faith in any peace in the Middle East has been completely shattered. Why can't bygones be bygones? Why can't we ignore the extremists, focus on rational talks, rational discussion. But instead no you insist that as long as Hezbollah or Hamas don't live up to your expectation of justice then you can do whatever you please to civilians as long as it's under what Hezbollah/Hamas have done. Christ sake, imagine if black people or heaven forbid native americans were any where near as vindictive as those in the middle east are... I seriously shudder at the lack of humanity, the "chosen people of god" really have.

A few weeks ago, I watched the UN piece talks live on television, the Isrealie side in simple terms was saying that "we want piece, but we can't do that unless you work with us to achieve that."
the Palestinian side said in simple terms "The only way there can be piece is if all our demands are met, and nothing less".
There demands are simple... Get out of the land, or die. They don't want piece unless Israel is nonexistent.
What do you have to say to this? This has been going on for many many years, they won't stop unless Israel, and every Israeli is gone.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i can't answer your question with honesty, because your question is a blatantly dishonest depiction of events.
its a loaded question
its like asking someone "have you stopped beating your wife yet" and limiting them to a yes/no answer

It isn't a loaded question. That's how the other side sees Israel's actions. They're people just like you who are taking up arms not because they're evil terrorists, but because they honestly and truly believe Israel has, and is continuing to do them harm.

We drop leaflets to worn people to get the hell out of areas where we conduct counter terrorist Military operations.
its to save the lives of people living there by warning them to get away.
not to make room for more settlements.

So you just knock over houses and force the Palestinians off their land with no warning then?

and the only reason why we even NEED to conduct Military operations in Palestinian civilian areas, is because thats where the militants hide.
and while its true that there was a time we used to bulldoze buildings, it was a retaliation move against Suicide bombings.
not to make room for more settlements.

The only reason Palestinians NEED to carry out suicide attacks is because Israelis took their land and cut off their access to food and water and lack the military strength to fight back conventionally.
See, it works both ways.

Also, do you think claiming Israel only bulldozed the houses in response to suicide attacks makes bulldozing people's houses any better?

every week you have Islamic terrorist of the same type that Hamas uses against us being carried out in Iraq, Iran (just today 10 people were killed), Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries all over the middle east.

Because they've been shown to work somewhat.

i'm tired of people trying to pass the buck to us as if WE are the reason for the Suicidal kind of violence presented by elements like Hamas.

Israel does make it rather easy to recruit new terrorists with its policies.

as if these people are desperate people who have nothing to lose so they carry on Suicide bombings against us.

Then what would you say is the reason?

P.S
the Palestinians NEED to surrender if they want things to improve.
the more they fight, the more damage they end up causing themselves (the Hamas take over of Gaza is a good example).

Yes, because that will get them a state. Just like all the past deals they've made with Israel have helped. Face it, they aren't going to surrender, and aren't in a position to concede anything. Israel is the party with all the cards here. If there's going to be peace, they need to make the first move. And Israel needs peace. In the long term the situation there is unsustainable without it. Israel won't always have unrivaled military supremacy over its neighbors, and the US isn't always going to be there to bail Israel out.

Is the government of Mexico carrying out the attacks ?

Is the Government of Palestine carrying out the attacks? Oh that's right there is no government of Palestine because Israel's occupying the land that would be a Palestinian state.

Lebanon, or at least Hizballah, attacked US
they crossed the boarder, attacked out patrol, killed several soldeirs and abducted their bodies (while claiming they are alive) and then opened fire on our northern towns.
all this happened without provocation.

Yeah, I mean its not like Israel was still occupying part of Lebanon, in violation of agreements to pull out. Completely unprovoked.

thats a declaration of WAR for all intent and purpose.

A terrorist group is not a nation state and cannot declare war.

and why should we care about enemy civilians more then they enemy himself does.

Morals how do they work

That you're fighting a bunch of bastards, doesn't mean you need to become a bunch of bastards yourself. Especially when you're in the position of having unchallengeable military supremacy. Israel can afford to play nice. Neither hamas nor hezbollah are threats to its survival.

[Nosauz]

Let the sands of the middle east run red with the blood of innocents. I can't believe you condone killing people who for the most part have no way of controlling what very few do. So should we as Americans go lynch christians for the OKC Federal building bombing, or Muslims for 9/11 or the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. Do you know how irrational and how hateful you sound. Why are zionists so insane, unable to tone down the rhetoric. This is why there will never be peace, because Zionists associate the actions of a FEW with the WHOLE, and then why the Israeli's go to protect their "troops" from justice, the muslims equate that blanket protection as corruption of the Jewish people. It's a lie to claim you want peace, and the only way your going to get what you want is peace. Fuck Extremism. Fight for Sanity, join the rally on 10/30/2010 at the Washington Memorial, we need some damn sanity in this country and the world in general.

[Kamui4356]

Whatever, I'm done. You're right, BoD. The Palestinians are an evil, violent people that can't be reasoned with. Israel is completely innocent and has never done anything wrong. All their actions are completely justified and always will be.

Originally Posted by Nosauz

we need some damn sanity in this country and the world in general.

Not going to happen as long as the world is inhabited by hairless, psychotic apes.

[Urzu 7]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100922/...n_titanic_book


Details about the Titanic that were not brought to light until around 100 years later. They made an error involving steering, and proceeded to make a second error that made the ship sink much faster than it otherwise would have.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

The only reason Palestinians NEED to carry out suicide attacks is because Israelis took their land and cut off their access to food and water and lack the military strength to fight back conventionally.
See, it works both ways.

don't fight at all
negotiate and settalment that makes it clear about accces to water, land whatever.

Also, do you think claiming Israel only bulldozed the houses in response to suicide attacks makes bulldozing people's houses any better?

i said we USED to
its been outlawed by our courts.

Then what would you say is the reason?

how about 62 years of propoganda telling people we are the sons of pigs and apes.
how about 1300 years of Islamic jew hatred
how about children growing up watching Hamas's version of Micky mouse telling them about how we are evil and that all they should aspire to be is martyers

Yes, because that will get them a state. Just like all the past deals they've made with Israel have helped. Face it, they aren't going to surrender, and aren't in a position to concede anything. Israel is the party with all the cards here. If there's going to be peace, they need to make the first move. And Israel needs peace. In the long term the situation there is unsustainable without it. Israel won't always have unrivaled military supremacy over its neighbors, and the US isn't always going to be there to bail Israel out.

the existence of the PNA is OUR creation.
we've CREATED the very body that now demands we show acts of good faith.
we've cleared the entire Gaza strip as a show of good faith.
we offered them over 90% of all territories as a final settalment
we've already made the first 100 moves

Is the Government of Palestine carrying out the attacks? Oh that's right there is no government of Palestine because Israel's occupying the land that would be a Palestinian state.

the goverment of Gaza is
who do you think is firing the missiles at us.
Hamas or its sub groups are.

Yeah, I mean its not like Israel was still occupying part of Lebanon, in violation of agreements to pull out. Completely unprovoked.

what the fuck are you talking about
Israel pulled out of ALL of Lebanon in 2000
and yet in 2006 they still attacked us.

A terrorist group is not a nation state and cannot declare war.

an armed militia attacks a sovereign country
thats as close to a declaration of war as it gets.

That you're fighting a bunch of bastards, doesn't mean you need to become a bunch of bastards yourself. Especially when you're in the position of having unchallengeable military supremacy. Israel can afford to play nice. Neither hamas nor hezbollah are threats to its survival.

irrelevant
the moment they attack our civilian population, its war
our blood will not be shad without there being hell to be paid for it.

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Let the sands of the middle east run red with the blood of innocents. I can't believe you condone killing people who for the most part have no way of controlling what very few do. So should we as Americans go lynch christians for the OKC Federal building bombing, or Muslims for 9/11 or the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. Do you know how irrational and how hateful you sound. Why are zionists so insane, unable to tone down the rhetoric. This is why there will never be peace, because Zionists associate the actions of a FEW with the WHOLE, and then why the Israeli's go to protect their "troops" from justice, the muslims equate that blanket protection as corruption of the Jewish people. It's a lie to claim you want peace, and the only way your going to get what you want is peace. Fuck Extremism. Fight for Sanity, join the rally on 10/30/2010 at the Washington Memorial, we need some damn sanity in this country and the world in general.

the US was once attacked by the actions of a few in
it invaded an entire counry thousands of miles away, and then invaded another country that had nothing to do with it.
i'm not talking about Japan and Germany here, but that also fits

if they can do that, we can cross a few Dozen miles to kill an enemy that fires missiles into our cities on a day to day basis

and i'm DONE with this.

[thevil1]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

don't fight at all
negotiate and settalment that makes it clear about accces to water, land whatever.

Originally Posted by thevil1 a few posts up

A few weeks ago, I watched the UN piece talks live on television, the Isrealie side in simple terms was saying that "we want piece, but we can't do that unless you work with us to achieve that."
the Palestinian side said in simple terms "The only way there can be piece is if all our demands are met, and nothing less".
There demands are simple... Get out of the land, or die. They don't want piece unless Israel is nonexistent.
What do you have to say to this? This has been going on for many many years, they won't stop unless Israel, and every Israeli is gone.

Having peace would be nice, but you need both sides to agree, and the Palestinians want nothing less then for Israel to be in the sea.

[Nosauz]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!

Bladeofdarkness: "B.. b.. .b... b..bu.. bu..buttttt... but....but... the U.S. did it..."

The last thing I'll say is, why don't you just genocide the Palestinian people because Hitler did it, as long as someone else has done something then it is acceptable. Anyway I'm done. Absolutely never talking about this on this board.

[thevil1]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!

Bladeofdarkness: "B.. b.. .b... b..bu.. bu..buttttt... but....but... the U.S. did it..."

The last thing I'll say is, why don't you just genocide the Palestinian people because Hitler did it, as long as someone else has done something then it is acceptable. Anyway I'm done. Absolutely never talking about this on this board.

Sorry to say but it seems to be that your not making any sense to the current conversation.

[flying ^]

anyways

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

The Republicans strike again: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...=moreheadlines

I can't believe this. This marks the first time in 48 years that Congress will not have passed a defense authorization bill before heading out of town.

The overall big picture called the Defense authorization bill would have passed yesterday if Harry Reid allowed more time to debate the bill and allow Republicans the opportunity to offer amendments.