Tibet VS China VS The World

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

The problem is, what's the difference for the lives of the majority of the people of Tibet, whether it was under the lamas or the PRC?

From all indications, it's improved substantially. However, Tibet is seeing nowhere near the kind of prosperity enjoyed by the coastal cities. Even that's changing as the completion of the new railroad increases the chances of yet more growth.

Ironically, it's this very growth that's at the heart of Tibet's protests - with increased growth, many Tibetans are fearful that Beijing's control is increased as well. Moreover, the Han population in Tibet see a disproportionate amount of gain compared to the average Tibetan - this advantage partially has to do with latent chauvinism on the part of the predominantly Han business class, and partially to do with the fact that the Hans tend to be better educated than native Tibetans. It's a tangled skein with no clear cut good guys and bad guys, and trying to portray the events in such terms does a disservice to all of us.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

From all indications, it's improved substantially. However, Tibet is seeing nowhere near the kind of prosperity enjoyed by the coastal cities. Even that's changing as the completion of the new railroad increases the chances of yet more growth.

It hasn't improved at ALL for the majority. In fact, it has gotten worse.

http://www.undp.org.cn/modules.php?op=modl...opic=40&sid=228

A nice little report on the situation.

It indicates that Tibetans are virtually at the bottom of the economic and social ladder. In addition to being worse of than others in China, there is a growing disparity between Tibetans in rural areas and in urban areas. Some other information in the report also indicates that there is a new social division; between a group that is becoming the elite class, composed predominantly of officials, and the rest of the Tibetan society.

Given the comfortable life style of the elite class, as revealed by the report, it could be assumed that this class supports the maintenance of status quo in Tibet. That is something to think about.



It's astonishing how people actually listen to all the propaganda that the PRC is sprouting, being fooled to thing things has gotten better for the Tibetians as a whole.

[Vexx]

I do believe ya'll actually agreed with each other though from the wording one might not think so initially.

[twkiwilee]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Well, the island of Taiwan holds the government of the Republic of "China", so my argument isn't that incorrect.

sure taiwan do hold the "republic of china" as the governemt, but what does that proves? It proves that the government of china (today) and taiwan are different; thus, are different.

Haha..most people gets confused about the "republic of china", and "china"

the "republic of china" is the government. before the mainland people came, there is no "republic of china" in taiwan, which was formally called formosa.

there's two different meaning for "china"
the one that the majority of the world knows is china today as in the People's republic of china, in other word communists.

the other one is china as in part of the big land in asia before any of the governmental systems takes place--the time of the dynasties. Now that China includes many asiatic countries today, not just China (PRC) itself. But before the first emporer of china came and constitute china, the people who lived before that king were not chinese because there were no such word as "chinese" or "china"

It's funny how people also said taiwan was part of china (or i believe in their thoughts, part of the PRC) = wrong; the PRC likes to claim that taiwan is theirs. And i was even upset at the drawings of some online maps where they highlight taiwan as part of PRC. What's more the PRC likes to tell the whole world that taiwan is theirs. [and i'm not sure if it's true] but when the PRC gives a document for another nation to sign, in the doc, they say we'll accept the agreement only if you recognize taiwan as part of our nation. How disgusting is that?

And they say they have culture. Well if they do retain their culture, then why did they changed traditional to simplified chinese? Simplified chinese just totally dismissed the symbolic meaning and history behind each character/ word.

-------

On the Tibet and China issue. I just hope PRC would just stop and have peace. and stop thinking about taking over lands/ or claiming that the land was originally theirs.

[4Tran]

Kang Seung Jae, you're sort of reading the data incorrectly. Nobody is trying to paint Tibet as some sort of land of equality, and that's exactly what the UN report you linked is concerned about. It's little surprise that Tibet is one of China's most poor regions - the coasts were the first to garner gains from capitalism, and it's been filtering slowly into the inner regions. Tibet is one of the most isolated regions, but that's partly what the new railway is supposed to alleviate.

While the communists were certainly not very nice; by comparison, Tibetans in general seem to have benefited from their rule. Before you accuse anyone of simply buying into Communist propaganda, you might want to look at the facts of the situation which simply tend not to be covered in much detail in most news reports. Try reading something like Michael Parenti's writings, and then make better-informed arguments.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I do believe ya'll actually agreed with each other though from the wording one might not think so initially.

My point is that even if we take into consideration the extremely small minority that benefitted, PRC rule has actually degraded the lives of the Tibetians. And we're not taking into account the human rights violation that goes on a mass scale. (And yes, I know how it was in the old ages, but compared to the PRC regime, that's paradise.)

Therefore, all arguements that the PRC improved the lives in Tibet is hard to believe at best.

[FCS-31]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

My point is that even if we take into consideration the extremely small minority that benefitted, PRC rule has actually degraded the lives of the Tibetians. And we're not taking into account the human rights violation that goes on a mass scale. (And yes, I know how it was in the old ages, but compared to the PRC regime, that's paradise.)

Therefore, all arguements that the PRC improved the lives in Tibet is hard to believe at best.

Have you ever been to Tibet?

I have ,and It is obsiously that their live there is not so bad,of course cann't like other big city in China.

most Tibetian didn't do any job,they just stay in their temple,even they are so young.

About This thing,My chinese friend told me.
"No chinese feel sorry about those ruffian.We just think our Gov is too kind to them.and we have to thanks to western media,because of them,all chinese united again,and no chinese will believe any western media anymore."

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by FCS-31

Have you ever been to Tibet?

I have ,and It is obsiously that their live there is not so bad,of course cann't like other big city in China.

most Tibetian didn't do any job,they just stay in their temple,even they are so young.

Few Tibetian do labor job,It not strange that their are weaker,I have no sympathy of them,I think they are suffer from their own actions.

About This thing,My chinese friend told me.
"No chinese feel sorry about those ruffian.We just think our Gov is too kind to them.and we have to thanks to western media,because of them,all chinese united again,and no chinese will believe any western media anymore."

are you for real? are you saying people are only poor and uneducated because theyre lazy?? people who are rich are automatically better and hardworking?? i know im not supposed to be aggressive on the forum, but that is one of the most nonsensical things ive ever heard.

[FCS-31]

[Removed flamebait]

I have been to China for many times,I just feel,this country are too complex to understand for foreigner.

Their thinking is quite different from western.(Not because of communism,Few chinese people trust it now),but most of them still support their gov.Because their gov make their life more comfortable,even there are so many serious problem,they prefer to see the progress of their country,and proud of it.

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by FCS-31

[Removed flamebait]

I have been to China for many times,I just feel,this country are too complex to understand for foreigner.

So the Tibetans would fail at maintaining their society if left to their own devices? Then why not let them do it?

If things really went that poorly, the young generation would be begging the PRC to help them in the near future.

"Foreigners can't understand" is one of the most ridiculous cop-outs ever invented. A diligent person is not incapable of assimilating information simply because they have prior experience. It's especially ridiculous in this case, since apparently even many natives don't understand--if they did, they'd certainly agree, wouldn't they?

[FCS-31]

Dala Lama has never came back to Tibet since he run away from there 50 years ago.Where have you met him?Are you sure you met him in tibet?I think he appears everywhere in the world,except china.

And well,no matter how angry we are.
The independent Tibet is hardly to achieve,as how much people against to iraq war?And Bush still open the gate without any hesitate.China will still control Tibet,as there are no western gov against it strongly,and organizations is useless and powerless,they can just say fack to china,but couldn't change anyrhing at all,most chinese people will not allow it happened,they just think that they are still not strong enough.

I feel china is a horrible country,It will become more powerful in futrue.
Just tell me,why there are still no western Gov show strong against china?
Maybe in 10 or 20 years,It will become the secondary powerful country in the world.
At that time,not only tiebt,maybe taiwan is also can't survive,as U.S couldn't protect it any more.

[escimo]

Pretty much all of the western world is highly reliant on goods produced in China. I don't think it will take long before China is financial might equal to U.S.
Of course China is even more reliant on western trade. Still economically watching idly by is the most beneficial solution for pretty much all of the significant nations. So it's quite obvious how it's going to end up.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

My point is that even if we take into consideration the extremely small minority that benefitted, PRC rule has actually degraded the lives of the Tibetians. And we're not taking into account the human rights violation that goes on a mass scale. (And yes, I know how it was in the old ages, but compared to the PRC regime, that's paradise.)

Therefore, all arguements that the PRC improved the lives in Tibet is hard to believe at best.

So you are saying that that during the rule of the Dalai Lama, only a small minority of people in tibet were slaves and serfs? I would say if you were a slave or a serf under the rule of the dalai lama and free by the communist then you have benefited. Unless of course you think being a slave under the Dalai Lama is preferrable being a free man under the communist rule.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by FCS-31

Dala Lama has never came back to Tibet since he run away from there 50 years ago.Where have you met him?Are you sure you met him in tibet?I think he appears everywhere in the world,except china.

And well,no matter how angry we are.
The independent Tibet is hardly to achieve,as how much people against to iraq war?And Bush still open the gate without any hesitate.China will still control Tibet,as there are no western gov against it strongly,and organizations is useless and powerless,they can just say fack to china,but couldn't change anyrhing at all,most chinese people will not allow it happened,they just think that they are still not strong enough.

I feel china is a horrible country,It will become more powerful in futrue.
Just tell me,why there are still no western Gov show strong against china?
Maybe in 10 or 20 years,It will become the secondary powerful country in the world.
At that time,not only tiebt,maybe taiwan is also can't survive,as U.S couldn't protect it any more.

um.. the dalai lama is in dharamshala. it doesnt mean i couldnt have been to both places.. as it happens chinese growth has slowed down in recently, everything is not growing at the rate it used to. also , pollution is becoming a huge problem in china. things arnt quite hunky dory.

look, the chinese dont give a damn whether the tibetans are capable or not. they want tibet, what the tibetans want really has nothing to do with it. if we use pure cold logic, tibet is important, and its obvious why the chinese wouldnt want to let it go.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by twkiwilee

Haha..most people gets confused about the "republic of china", and "china"

Funny story, i bought a guitar in the mid90's and it was branded "made in china", so i didn't really want to buy it, until it turned out to be made in ROC. Found out when i contacted the manufacture.

The issue i have is the word china and chinese, and how it is actually used. The term Chinese is nothing more than a western term used to describe people from differnent ethinic background which look the same to them. So why do people even separate tibetan from chinese? And not han or manchu from chinese? Separating people into religion, ethnic background or what not, fuels discrimination. In the past it was used by imperial countries to control its colonies, but today it doesn't really work (well it does work in some cases). But obviously it does work for the media to sell stories in newspapers and TV.

Instead of just saying poor tibet, all people in PRC are pretty much f*cked, unless they live in the coastal regions and bigger cities. I want all people in the regions to be free, not just the tibetans, but obviously noone cares about the others.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

So you are saying that that during the rule of the Dalai Lama, only a small minority of people in tibet were slaves and serfs? I would say if you were a slave or a serf under the rule of the dalai lama and free by the communist then you have benefited. Unless of course you think being a slave under the Dalai Lama is preferrable being a free man under the communist rule.

if the tibetans have benefited so much.. why are they rioting?!?!? the post above mine explains it pretty well

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by FCS-31

Dala Lama has never came back to Tibet since he run away from there 50 years ago.Where have you met him?Are you sure you met him in tibet?I think he appears everywhere in the world,except china.

And well,no matter how angry we are.
The independent Tibet is hardly to achieve,as how much people against to iraq war?And Bush still open the gate without any hesitate.China will still control Tibet,as there are no western gov against it strongly,and organizations is useless and powerless,they can just say fack to china,but couldn't change anyrhing at all,most chinese people will not allow it happened,they just think that they are still not strong enough.

*I* met the Dalai Lama at Rice University in Houston, TX in the 1980s. I attended a workshop on Buddhism he gave and chatted with him.

Tenzin Gyatso, he's just this guy, you know? (for a cookie, spot the joke reference)

For a change, I'm in agreement with Condoleeza Rice -- the Lama is a moderate and if the PRC government would stop ranting like a bunch of name-calling juveniles and talk with HIM, they may not have to face the really extreme and frustrated Tibetans who DO see violence as their only remaining recourse to the inequities they face.

It should be noted that the tactics the PRC government use against Tibetan Buddhism are the same they use against all religion (recently the Catholics were denied Easter celebration, apparently in fear of having too many in one place). The PRC government inserts their agents into religions at all levels and anyone must pass "loyalty tests" before they can assume any position in a religion. The state-approved "Living Buddhas" and the disappearance and replacement of the Panchen Lama are explicit examples of PRC government attempts to steadily grind religion into another tool for their use. I'm no fan of organized religion but I tend to view this as just replacing one form of zealotry for another. Religious freedom means that religion has to compete openly with other ethical systems in the "marketplace of ideas". The PRC government seems neurotically afraid of open discussion.

Actually, the Bush remark about the Iraq war is dangerous for your remarks because it ALSO is an unjustifiable act by a major power (as manipulated by misinformation and deceit) and over half of the USA's own citizens think it was wrong. So diversionary pointing in this case only provides another example of a bad choice.

[Removed flamebait]
I have been to China for many times,I just feel,this country are too complex to understand for foreigner.

[Removed response to flamebait]
Oh, and the "too complex" argument is mostly used to silence critical analysis and insult people who don't agree with one's preferred view.

I've heard this sort of nonsensical reasoning used in too many regions, countries, and times to defend the indefensible.
(I remember hearing USA Southerners use that argument to try and silence antagonism towards the Segregated Society there in the 1960s).

[ZeusIrae]

hmmm, the discussion is actually very intresting.

I am personnaly very worried by all the call for a boycott.This is a bad move, IMO.It's clear that CCP sees Tibet(or all over "separatist" minorities) has a vital issue wich is logical, after all if they compromise on Tibet then why not the Uighurs or another one of the dozens of minorities that reside in China?Desintegration and chaos is one of their greatest fear.
A boycott isn't likely to change that, worse it will probably give a boost to the conservatives who want to block any moves toward democracy and enrage the chinese nationalists.Conservatism and nationalism is a rather fearsome combination.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by FCS-31

Have you ever been to Tibet?

I have ,and It is obsiously that their live there is not so bad,of course cann't like other big city in China.

most Tibetian didn't do any job,they just stay in their temple,even they are so young.

Few Tibetian do labor job,It not strange that their are weaker,I have no sympathy of them,I think they are suffer from their own actions.

About This thing,My chinese friend told me.
"No chinese feel sorry about those ruffian.We just think our Gov is too kind to them.and we have to thanks to western media,because of them,all chinese united again,and no chinese will believe any western media anymore."

I've been to Tibet for 6 months (and most parts of China), and it is certain that the PRC (and Han Chinese by extension) are taking advantage of the social structure that has been in Tibet.

The only difference I noticed between East Turkistan and Tibet is that in East Turkistan, PRC actually has an imperialist company doing the dirty work

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

So you are saying that that during the rule of the Dalai Lama, only a small minority of people in tibet were slaves and serfs? I would say if you were a slave or a serf under the rule of the dalai lama and free by the communist then you have benefited. Unless of course you think being a slave under the Dalai Lama is preferrable being a free man under the communist rule.

Correction: There is no free Tibetian except for the few elite in PRC Tibet. That the PRC improved human rights there is a myth.


Also, allow me to make this clear: I have no wish for the Dalai Lama to be back in power, nor that the old Tibet be formed. I, however, will not be ignorant of the atrocities that the PRC regime does upon its conquers and its own people.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Also, allow me to make this clear: I have no wish for the Dalai Lama to be back in power, nor that the old Tibet be formed. I, however, will not be ignorant of the atrocities that the PRC regime does upon its conquers and its own people.

I think that last sentence can be agreed to by many who might disagree on the details but want the Tibetans (and the Han as well as all the other social groups) to have a nicer day than they've been having.