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Old 2013-12-13, 22:06   Link #721
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Manabu View Post
Nice arc end, though I didn't understand what exactly king's torture utopia was. His explanation on why he has chosen the evil path didn't convinced me.
From what I could gather, he was aiming for NGE's Instrumentality, just with him as the main mind of the big, giant mass of collective humanity.

Yeah, Torture was pretty crazy. Impressively competent and charismatic, but off the deep end to be sure.


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I'm also with the others that said the characters now lack depth compared to the first episodes, that I liked much better than the last ones.
Seriously? You'd seriously rather see Samurai Flamenco get beat up by a bunch of kids than defeat a cool and impressive super-villain?

I really don't get the criticisms that you and others have made pertaining to the characters. How did they have more depth before? I think they have plenty of depth now.

Good character development often entails characters overcoming earlier character flaws and becoming better people. And Samurai Flamenco isn't perfect anyway. He still relies a helluva lot on his friends, and as Goto points out, he consistently gives the toughest jobs to Goto!
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Old 2013-12-14, 06:31   Link #722
Dark Wing
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Well TR I think you have to look at the main draw back many are having to see where their criticisms is coming from...It's 10 episodes in and we still have no idea WTH is going on!

While I myself am enjoying the show and all it's over the top glory probably the same as you, Is it any wonder why people are having trouble handling the still unexplained shift in the narrative.?
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Old 2013-12-14, 07:25   Link #723
jeroz
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When the Flamenco Girl popped we see the start of other people joining the party, it's no surprise that there will be another dedicated group of people who goes for the alternative philosophy.

Let me put it this way, King Torture popping up is no different to Flamenco Girl appearing. They are both dreamers who seized the opportunity and the "social acceptance" in which Samurai Flamenco created. While one's more elaborate in his preparation and puts more heart into it, he's still another fanatic who likes to live out his dream. The torture scene is just the hardcore fan grilling the casuals for "not getting it", just like how a lot of anime fans despises "narutards".
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Old 2013-12-14, 08:39   Link #724
Xero8420
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Well, I don't know how are you going to twist your thoughts here, Kirarakim. But judging from the way you posted, it almost sounds like you're not being honest here. With Masayoshi's dream realized and eventually become a superhero he dreams to be, you're saying that he then lack of character flaws/depth thing meaning you assume that he became a Gary Stu character?

Spoiler for Or maybe...:


Masayoshi isn't a guy with lack of flaws. There's still rooms for him, as you know that whatever he did doesn't stop Goto from criticizing. And it was also noted that Masayoshi has developed a 'serious' personality when he become a tokusatsu/sentai hero. You sound like you prefer "realistic" characters over a "half-unrealistic/unrealistic" or "dream warrior" characters. It doesn't even matter of how you assume that Masayoshi is being "unreal" ever since King Torture made his appearance.

I'm sorry for being harsh to you, but be honest to yourself. You don't like the idea of tokusatsu/sentai adaptation in an anime series just because this series has gone full sentai/tokusatsu, along with Masayoshi being an unrealistic/Gary Stu-like character as you thought. Since I'm sticking around with this series for quite some times, it was understandable that this series received a mixed receptions, including the negative ones.
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Old 2013-12-14, 09:18   Link #725
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero8420 View Post
Well, I don't know how are you going to twist your thoughts here, Kirarakim. But judging from the way you posted, it almost sounds like you're not being honest here. With Masayoshi's dream realized and eventually become a superhero he dreams to be, you're saying that he then lack of character flaws/depth thing meaning you assume that he became a Gary Stu character?
I didn't use the word Gary Stu, you did. I believe I said boring.

And yeah I think he lacks flaws that make him a compelling character to me. I try not to throw around the word Gary Stu personally because it is way overused.

Perhaps if it took Masayoshi a bit longer to reach his dream the story & he would be more interesting to me, I don't know. It just happened all too quickly. It's the journey vs the destination.

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...you had a bad impression about a certain character from a certain series who was 'really' being a Gary Stu?
And what character would that be?

Quote:
Masayoshi isn't a guy with lack of flaws. There's still rooms for him, as you know that whatever he did doesn't stop Goto from criticizing. And it was also noted that Masayoshi has developed a 'serious' personality when he become a tokusatsu/sentai hero. You sound like you prefer "realistic" characters over a "half-unrealistic/unrealistic" or "dream warrior" characters. It doesn't even matter of how you assume that Masayoshi is being "unreal" ever since King Torture made his appearance.
I don't recall using the term "unreal" maybe I did. I don't dislike fantasy type series at all. But yes I do think this show was much better when it had a more "realistic" feeling. It was never completely realistic. But that is different from my criticism of Masayoshi's character. In fact as I said earlier in this thread I think my feelings on the shift of tone of the series is just a matter of taste not quality.

Quote:
I'm sorry for being harsh to you, but be honest to yourself.
Not really sure how I am not being honest with myself. Maybe you should be honest with yourself that you don't like someone criticizing a show you enjoy. But my criticisms should not stop you from enjoying the show. I never said anyone has to agree with how I feel about Masayoshi or the show.

Quote:
You don't like the idea of tokusatsu/sentai adaptation in an anime series just because this series has gone full sentai/tokusatsu, along with Masayoshi being an unrealistic/Gary Stu-like character as you thought. Since I'm sticking around with this series for quite some times, it was understandable that this series received a mixed receptions, including the negative ones.
I don't really know if I like tokusatsu/sentai adaptions of anime or not. This is my first exposure to one. I watched the first series of Power Rangers as a kid but never really watched anything else from the genre. In fact I have absolutely no opinion one way or the other on Tokusatsu/sentai series.

Certainly there are certain genres I like more than others but I am not against any genre and have found shows I enjoy in pretty much every genre if they are well told.
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Old 2013-12-14, 15:00   Link #726
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Seriously? You'd seriously rather see Samurai Flamenco get beat up by a bunch of kids than defeat a cool and impressive super-villain?
It's not quite that simple.

As long as Samurai Flamenco was hopelessly outclassed we had a tension between idealism and obsession - on the one hand, he's got the heart in the right place, but on the other he's blinded by the symbol. Goto's the perfect foil for this - similar idealism, but ground down through beaurocracy. It's a subtle tug and pull: don't forget what you want.

But if the hero-model actually works all that is... misdirection and comes to nothing. It's quite possible that I watched the show "wrongly": there were hints of the things to come: I have to admit I wasn't too fond of the gradual increase in "sillyness" (stationary weapons made me roll my eyes, but at least they were funny...).

The problem isn't a difference of depth: it's that the way I started to watch the show is incompatible with the show I'm getting now, and there was a round of disorientation.

If I had viewed the show as a deconstruction of super sentai shows from the beginning, I doubt I'd have been this disappointed. Now, I think the subtle social satire worked better, but that may be me being sensitive to "initial conditions".

It's a pity really. I think King Torture's monster legion were hilarious (especially the horse). There are still hints of the show I liked in the beginning, which makes it even harder to "make the switch". As a result, I'm torn between two watch modes, and if I could pick one, I'd pick the original one (because of personal interests).

(I had a similar problem with Lord of the Rings, the books. I quit reading because I couldn't decide whether I was reading an epic poem, a fairy tale, or fantasy novel - the disparate elements simply never came together for me.)

This episode, the interaction between King Toruture and Mari was excellent, for me, but it felt like it occurred "out of context", so I didn't care for it as much as I could have. For me, the mind set required to appreciate a scene like that is different from the mind set required to accept all that King-Torture silliness in the second half. To make it work you can't compartmentalise your scenes like that; it feels like the show is either serious or silly, and I'm not quick enough to make the switch.

I suspect, that the "hero-of-justice" ideal can function as a bridge for that: if you're moved by that, I suppose the latter King Torture scenes have some sort of impact on a deeper level as well. I'm not moved by that, though. I can't help but view that ideal as a silly affectation. It's just how I tick.

And that's why, yes, in this case I preferred Samurai Flamenco being beat up by kids to Samaruai Flamenco beating up a super villain. It's not that I think that would make for a better show. It's just how I feel about what's on the screen before me.
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Old 2013-12-14, 18:22   Link #727
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Gotou grabbed onto the ledge. He didn't fall.
well only thing I could see he was holding onto something but it was at level of the passage there. I mean in term of gravity he should be at a lower place. did he have the ability to hang in the air ?
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Old 2013-12-14, 18:54   Link #728
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Originally Posted by erdii View Post
well only thing I could see he was holding onto something but it was at level of the passage there. I mean in term of gravity he should be at a lower place. did he have the ability to hang in the air ?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Gotou was holding onto the outer edge of the passage.
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Old 2013-12-14, 19:31   Link #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
It's not quite that simple.
For many viewers, it is. It's not that strange to root for the main protagonist and want to see him or her succeed.


Quote:
As long as Samurai Flamenco was hopelessly outclassed we had a tension between idealism and obsession - on the one hand, he's got the heart in the right place, but on the other he's blinded by the symbol.
Samurai Flamenco doesn't need to be "hopelessly outclassed" for this tension to exist. You can be obsessed without being "hopelessly outclassed".

The key starting next episode, I think, is to show Samurai Flamenco having to make tough choices between his personal life and his super-hero life. Him going public with his secret identity will probably serve as a good jumping board for this. Some people probably won't see Hazama the same way again, and may think him reckless or silly for doing the superhero thing. His boss almost certainly won't be pleased.

So you could still have a tension here between idealism and obsession, focused around whether or not Hazama is in the right for being "Samurai Flamenco" and continuing on with it.

For a good contrast, you could see a scenario where the Muse girls skyrocket in popularity as Mari puts superhero-ing behind her and focuses exclusively on her music career. Contrast that with Hazama struggling in his model/celebrity career due to time spent superhero-ing, and I think you could still have effective tension here.


Quote:
But if the hero-model actually works all that is... misdirection and comes to nothing.
I don't think it's misdirection. It's just character growth. It's no different, really, than an action-shounen main protagonist starting small with minor challenges and enemies, and growing to face steadily more serious and severe threats.

I never expected anything quite like King Torture or Gorilla Guillotine, but by episode 5 or so, I was starting to expect super-villains. Hazama's sure and steady progress pretty much demanded greater enemies to challenge him with.


Quote:
there were hints of the things to come: I have to admit I wasn't too fond of the gradual increase in "sillyness" (stationary weapons made me roll my eyes, but at least they were funny...).
At the end of the day, this is an anime. Precious few anime are firmly realistic. As a default position, I would never expect firm realism from an anime. There will almost always be something you have to suspend disbelief for.

There are limits to this, of course. Total asspulls should be kept to a minimum. But I'd never go into an anime expecting strict adherence to, say, the laws of physics. And it's probably best to be prepared for at least a couple wild sci-fi/supernatural elements.


Quote:
If I had viewed the show as a deconstruction of super sentai shows from the beginning, I doubt I'd have been this disappointed. Now, I think the subtle social satire worked better, but that may be me being sensitive to "initial conditions".
The subtle social satire was very effective, but there's only so much you can do with that. I mean, honestly, how many episodes of Samurai Flamenco chiding people for stealing umbrellas or putting out garbage at the wrong time, would it take before most viewers would find it boring?


Quote:
It's a pity really. I think King Torture's monster legion were hilarious (especially the horse).
I agree that the horse was the best and funniest one.


Quote:
There are still hints of the show I liked in the beginning, which makes it even harder to "make the switch". As a result, I'm torn between two watch modes, and if I could pick one, I'd pick the original one (because of personal interests).
It's a serious tokusatsu show, but it winks at the audience, and it has bits of clever social satire here and there. Really, this show is even more like Tiger and Bunny than what was first thought.

Spoiler for Tiger and Bunny comparison, mild implied spoilers:



Quote:
This episode, the interaction between King Toruture and Mari was excellent, for me, but it felt like it occurred "out of context", so I didn't care for it as much as I could have. For me, the mind set required to appreciate a scene like that is different from the mind set required to accept all that King-Torture silliness in the second half.
The only major difference is that one challenges the suspension of disbelief, and the other doesn't. But if you're willing to roll with the less realistic sci-fi elements of this show, then there isn't "different mindsets" necessary here.

It's not just about being a fan of the "hero-ideal" either, though that of course helps. It's mainly about suspension of disbelief, straight-up. Can you accept that King Torture had access to wondrous alien particles that enabled him to pull off some really weird shit? That's the key here. If you can accept that (and accept that Torture and his forces were obviously kinda crazy), then the other elements aren't that hard to roll with. At least in my opinion.

The thing I want to stress here is that the Samurai Flamenco vs. King Torture conflict scenes are not meant to be silly comedy. It's meant to be every bit as dramatic and serious and suspenseful as a good Batman vs. The Joker fight.
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Old 2013-12-14, 21:32   Link #730
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masayoshi
It's just character growth
Well that is my problem with Masayoshi's character. I see no real character growth. I can't speak for anyone else but it's not that I want to see Masayoshi fail but the journey from getting from point A (being beat up by kids) to point B (fighting super villains) was not all that compelling to me.

To me character growth is all about the journey of getting there, I just did not feel the actual growth happen. Now I am not saying Masayoshi's transformation took seconds but it still happened way too quickly for my tastes and I am just not interested in Masayoshi's story anymore because of that.

And I certainly don't care about him balancing his real life work with his super hero work (if the series does take that route) when his modeling career was always secondary in importance to him anyways. Maybe that would be compelling to someone else but not me.

And as for your comparison with Tiger & Bunny I think T&B is by far the superior series at this point because both Kotetsu and Barnaby were more compelling protagonists with internal issues... but I suppose that is just a matter of opinion.
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Old 2013-12-14, 23:45   Link #731
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Was kind of disappointed in the news reporter guy.
Even if he was messing around behind the scenes to get an entertaining story, when it mattered, I thought he would pick the more moral and noble path. But he gave it to the dark side.
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Old 2013-12-15, 00:06   Link #732
jeroz
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He likes entertainment, and triggering more stories is entertaining. No point letting the fun die down there.


Back on topic, I agree that the next episode would be a nice watershed. The fall out would be entertaining to say the least, and the ramification of this would impact a lot on Hazama's character, not to forget his manager as well.
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Old 2013-12-15, 03:21   Link #733
Dawnstorm
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Samurai Flamenco doesn't need to be "hopelessly outclassed" for this tension to exist. You can be obsessed without being "hopelessly outclassed".

...

I don't think it's misdirection. It's just character growth. It's no different, really, than an action-shounen main protagonist starting small with minor challenges and enemies, and growing to face steadily more serious and severe threats.
That's pretty much true. But for me, the shounen development model and the tension I saw earlier on just don't come together in this show. They're pulling in different directions, and both feel weakened. I'm really just trying to describe my emotional reactions here, and they are what they are. You have lots of good points, and perhaps they'll help me get more out of the show once I've thought them through.

Quote:
The key starting next episode, I think, is to show Samurai Flamenco having to make tough choices between his personal life and his super-hero life. Him going public with his secret identity will probably serve as a good jumping board for this. Some people probably won't see Hazama the same way again, and may think him reckless or silly for doing the superhero thing. His boss almost certainly won't be pleased.
There are also "hero issues". This week, Mari has been shot down, but Hazama is on his way in the opposite direction (as we've seen in the episode where he first worries about the monsters, and then gets wrapped up in the feedback [relying on blogs for the opponent's name - Goto noticed it, too]). In a sense, Mari has been an idol, even when she was Flamenco Girl. Now Hazama is probably on his way to become a model when he's Samurai Flamenco.

At least that's the trajectory I think they set up.

Quote:
So you could still have a tension here between idealism and obsession, focused around whether or not Hazama is in the right for being "Samurai Flamenco" and continuing on with it.
Yes, but the show I started watching was a conflict between ideals and their viability; now I sense a conflict between different ideals coming. Any way, ever since King Torture, "viability" has been drastically re-defined.

Quote:
At the end of the day, this is an anime. Precious few anime are firmly realistic. As a default position, I would never expect firm realism from an anime. There will almost always be something you have to suspend disbelief for.
I never think like that. A show sets up its own rules, and if it attempts a surprise there, there's always a risk that some people won't follow. I got left behind, and I'm currently struggling to keep up.

I fully understand that you don't share that experience. I can even see the pointers. In retro-spect. Doesn't help, though. The damage is done. I'm not giving up, yet, though (and reading your post may help me get my bearings - so: Thanks. )

Quote:
The subtle social satire was very effective, but there's only so much you can do with that. I mean, honestly, how many episodes of Samurai Flamenco chiding people for stealing umbrellas or putting out garbage at the wrong time, would it take before most viewers would find it boring?
I'm sure it could have been done in some way, had that been the story the writers had been interested in. But some of the setup would have probably been different (especially that stationary guy).

Quote:
The only major difference is that one challenges the suspension of disbelief, and the other doesn't. But if you're willing to roll with the less realistic sci-fi elements of this show, then there isn't "different mindsets" necessary here.

It's not just about being a fan of the "hero-ideal" either, though that of course helps. It's mainly about suspension of disbelief, straight-up. Can you accept that King Torture had access to wondrous alien particles that enabled him to pull off some really weird shit? That's the key here. If you can accept that (and accept that Torture and his forces were obviously kinda crazy), then the other elements aren't that hard to roll with. At least in my opinion.
It is about suspension of disbelief. But for me, the mind set determines how much (or what kind of) disbelief I can suspend. Right now, even though I can probably work it out rationally, I'm in an anything-goes mindset. I've lost my footing.

Quote:
The thing I want to stress here is that the Samurai Flamenco vs. King Torture conflict scenes are not meant to be silly comedy. It's meant to be every bit as dramatic and serious and suspenseful as a good Batman vs. The Joker fight.
I know. For me, it wasn't. It felt mostly silly.
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Old 2013-12-15, 03:59   Link #734
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
All of that being said, I differ with both Kanon and Kazu-kun in that I do see hope for Mari's character here. While I think King Torture was bang-on about Mari in the first half of the episode, I'm not sure if Mari's willingness to sacrifice herself for Moe's sake was as insincere as Torture thought it was. Perhaps Torture's earlier words had already begun to cause changes in Mari's heart, and she wanted to truly become a superhero and help her dearest friend in the process.
I interpret it differently. At that point, I don't think she cared all that much about being a hero, despite what KT said. Oh, sure, it may have been in a corner of her mind, just like "I don't like being tortured" was. But mostly, I think she didn't want her friend to get hurt for the sake of her (Mari's) role playing.
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Old 2013-12-15, 06:47   Link #735
jeroz
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The thing I want to stress here is that the Samurai Flamenco vs. King Torture conflict scenes are not meant to be silly comedy. It's meant to be every bit as dramatic and serious and suspenseful as a good Batman vs. The Joker fight.
I see it as from another angle. To them it's as serious as Batman and Joker. However to the outside observer with all those absurd costumes on, they feel like two fans of different factions on the same title arguing about which interpretation is better. It's great that the characters are treating it seriously themselves, but I feel like the presentation added another dimension to the whole scene that can be analysed further.

I always see Hazama as a dreamer. First he dreams alone, taking small steps into making his dream a reality. Then Red Axe comes along because he saw SF and it rekindled his old dream. Then Flamenco Girl comes along because she too dreams of being a magical girl who kill all the bad guys, and can't stand playing second fiddle to some random hero wannabe. Then the Scientist guy comes along who dreams to develop all those crazy gadgets that wasn't possible back in the days. Everything is going smoothly, there's no opposition force to stop their joyous little ride, until there's nothing they can play with.

And that's when King Torture joins the party. He too was a dreamer who wants to become a dark lord. However just like Samurai Flamenco, he alone can't really make things go down the script. If there's no Samurai Flamenco, the cops will rush in, the military will be involved later on, and there's no joy of playing a dungeon master like the way he always wanted. The emergence of Samurai Flamenco allows him to fulfill his dream, and we just see how happy he is.

In some way, this is a show about adult Chuunibyou. :P
We witness the initial stigma carried with the dream itself, yet Hazama managed to convey his passion to the public for him to become accepted. Others just play along, and joins the fun on the way until the hardcore player that is King Torture who is more passionate about the tokusatsu dream appears. Mari got schooled because she is too casual in this collective dream.
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Old 2013-12-15, 11:20   Link #736
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"I am Samurai Flamenco" was like " I am the Iron Man"

Very cool episode and the ending song was so pure and full of emotion. Also the OST that kicked in when SF was being pushed back to the wall is awesome as usual!

Truly a gem of this season even w/o being very serious/highly anticipated etc.
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Old 2013-12-16, 11:51   Link #737
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
For many viewers, it is. It's not that strange to root for the main protagonist and want to see him or her succeed.
I can relate to that. But it also depends on the show. If you are watching Wile E. Coyote (extreme example) you probably relish in his failures instead. Or simply know that his "success" would kill the formula.

Comedy is a weird thing, and Samurai Flamenco started out as a comedy. I was happy too to see Samumenco fare better against thugs and petty criminals - and honestly, I was ok with it. I was also ok with the idea that inevitably, there would have been supervillains, sooner or later. It's the execution that bugs me.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
At the end of the day, this is an anime. Precious few anime are firmly realistic. As a default position, I would never expect firm realism from an anime. There will almost always be something you have to suspend disbelief for.

There are limits to this, of course. Total asspulls should be kept to a minimum. But I'd never go into an anime expecting strict adherence to, say, the laws of physics. And it's probably best to be prepared for at least a couple wild sci-fi/supernatural elements.
True, but an almost invariable rule is that you set the level of your realism at the beginning and stay adherent to that. Doing it any other way reeks of cheating the viewers. The issue with plot twists is that they are a hard trick - they need not to be seen until they happen, and yet afterwards they must make you slap your forehead for not seeing that coming. Changing suddenly level of realism is unfair. It's as if in Dragonball Z Gohan was shot during his Great Saiyaman hijinks and suddenly died because of it. Or even his girlfriend, Videl. It just doesn't ring with the setting. It makes sense, but it's a cheap blow, because you couldn't legitimately see it coming.

As I said, I kinda expected super villains. I also expected them to be Tokusatsu fans like Masayoshi, only gone the wrong way. I thought they could keep the comedic tone (and thus be farcical like the monsters in episode 8 were) or be very violent, and force Masayoshi to face the consequences of his choices - that being a superhero somehow "summoned" these guys, it allowed them to realize THEIR dreams of pure evil and injustice. But I never expected them to be so asspullish as Guillottine Gorilla was. THAT's what came out of nothing and left many disappointed. And after that, everything was dealt with in a very rushed way. For example, one of the most interesting thing is that these monsters were supposed to be real people - yet they sacrificed their lives for no reason at all, not even doing real evil acts. Why did they do that? Who were they? It almost looks like they were already suicidal dudes who only looked for a way to make their deaths 'matter'. Exhibitionists of sorts. So much potential to explore, yet it wasn't even touched upon, in the rush to show us a final fight between Samumenco and King Torture. Every show should stick to what it CAN do, is what I say. Right now, if I want action and breathtaking battles, I'll get them from HunterXHunter and Kill la Kill. Samumenco's animation is abysmal, the action of dubious quality at best. The fight choreography is poor. Why would I CARE about it? What it could do well was introspection, satire, and everything related to writing: and that, it seems to have abandoned. That's why I am personally disappointed, and I think many feel the same. I am still not dropping the series because I think something is off, but the last episode has started making me doubt that.
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Old 2013-12-16, 16:13   Link #738
jeroz
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I do wonder if the Torture Boys will be questioned by the police, or do the writers think that spiel by one of them in ep9 is enough to tell their story. However other than gorilla, every villains retain the same tone of comedy as before with the same level of wits, so not sure what you mean by the writing has been abandoned. This series has been using various support characters to act as foils to SF, so focusing on the side characters of the side character can make the narrative too aimless I feel.
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Old 2013-12-18, 11:47   Link #739
Mad Pierrot
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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I hope they will elaborate on the comment from Goto's girlfriend about Hazama. While I didn't like episode 8 it looked like the comment tried to address Hazama as a crazy person due to how he loves beating up monsters.
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Old 2013-12-18, 11:58   Link #740
Cloudedmind
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Join Date: May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
I hope they will elaborate on the comment from Goto's girlfriend about Hazama. While I didn't like episode 8 it looked like the comment tried to address Hazama as a crazy person due to how he loves beating up monsters.
I don't think she meant that he was going crazy, but just that he was changing, and not in a good way. Possible her sensing him losing some of his idealism.
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