[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Joneleth]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Ep6 Erika's existence:

Likewise, if Erika's existence is written off... does that also possibly write off Dlanor and her girls' existence due to their link?

Dlanor should join forces with Battler.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I'd really like to be able to create a side of myself in which I'm diligent and never procrastinate.

Oh its easy. Just get a big white board, hang it at the end of your bed so that you will see it every morning you get up. Before going to sleep, always write on it that "XXX is another me. XXX is very diligent. XXX is the best in the world. XXX can solve anything within given time. XXX is as perfect as anyone can get. I am XXX." You can take it slowly, upscale it day by day, or just keep at it with a number of such statements. Pass through them everyday, ensure you don't doubt them (it will be difficult at first but as long as you suppress the desire to go "oh fuck that, like that's true", it will slowly become easier to accept it) and then, I guarantee that within a month or two, you will have a side of yourself that is diligent and doesn't even procrastinate. In order to make your other side believable, you can set a few conditions for him to activate (like only when it has to do with you being before lots of people). And use the name you prefer the most (or the on you find most dependable, these two aren't always the same) in place of XXX.

This trick is used by all humans, its known as hypnotism (add the self if you want but the original word for hypnotism, Sammohan in Sanskrit, means to take control of yourself, the subject is but a means to achieve self-control). How else do you think actors manage to act and magicians manage to pull off their tricks before hundred of people with a straight face?

[artirian]

Spoiler for About Natsuhi baby:

Could it be George?.
I know, it´s probably just too absurd if we are sure about his age and other aspects. Besides, it could be just Natsuhi delusion (I don´t remember if the thing about "Second Battler" was stated in red in EP6). However, some aspects that one could guess like "he has a fast development in college and university stuff" is getting now in my head, and the "coincidence" (assume that George is the "Second Battler" or just the "previous baby") of Eva with the "need" of making Natsuhi the "culprit", etc. I´m just scared to think about that.

Maybe, it´s just more simple.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Joneleth

Dlanor should join forces with Battler.

and have Dlanor stab him in the back? FULLY support!

[Kaiba]

Also, Battler being the culprit is one of the possible solutions that exists within the story. It is pointed out by the story and there are hints to it, otherwise the blue truths won't even exist. It is within the story and not from out of the blue that I claimed he was a culprit. Heck, Battler used it himself -_- And since the game hasn't concluded yet, there are many culprits at this moment (Schrodinger's Cat Box). For instance, within the last 5 pages or so, I have branded Shkanon, Battler and Jessica culprits and all of the theories hold their forte within the game.

This once goes back to what I'm saying for you, in that you seem to think that any theory that is not destroyed by the red truths is acceptable, which is clearly not true by Episode 5. Or if you think that way, since Erika didn't know the red truth of Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit, do you think her actions were justified and the trial was fair? As I've already stated: you're thinking just like Erika, particularly with your obsession in distrusting anything and everything that's not stated in red, and this is not a good thing.

Yep, Shanontrice and Shkanon aren't equivalent but Shanontrice doesn't really have much evidence to itself, any evidence that points at Shanontrice points at Shkanon in a stronger manner.

Wut.
As someone who argues in favor of Shannontrice but hates, hates Shkanon, I massively disagree with this concept and argue that there is quite a bit of evidence in favor of the theory. Some examples like the fact that the two did indeed like each other in the past (Jesus, have you not heard of the pony theory at all?), combined with the fact that it's very heavily implied that Battler's sin was a broken promise towards Beatrice in Episode 5 (something which contradicts your theory) and Shannon's oddities in her death in Episode 1, which there have been tons of arguments over here.

[chounokoe]

[QUOTE=Forsaken_Infinity;2852258]Only bring in things that has already been concretely established or at least very strongly hinted at.[quote]

Well you're not exactly following that example when introducing a theory where Battler is the culprit when it was at least established on a plot-basis that Ushiromiya has not commited murder and that he is the detective in the first 4 games.

I know you don't like believing in the relationship between author and reader, but it is not like you implied only about 'the author being nice', it is about the author loosing the trust of his readers if he were to introduce a Logic Error within his own story.
If at one point we were to learn what you implied

Virgilia's red applies to a different Battler from the one who gets most of the screen time. I could even make this red with the evidence that Battler brandishes himself the culprit in Episode 5 Ura without any ramification.

then many readers (including me) would loose their trust in the author and stop thinking, because anything could be a lie and be aimed solely at the act of lying to us.
And as far as I remember Battler only introduced the possibility of him being the boy from 19 years ago, who has a grudge against Natsuhi, he never shouldered the crime of MURDER with any of his claims. With that he only gives power to Natsuhi's alibi, he does not brandish himself the culprit.

The culprit is very well possible to be the univited guest, the '18th person',

Spoiler for Episode 6:

Furudo Erika

If a theory is already plausible at the moment, the author can turn it into the only possible (and very appreciable) solution with no more than one sentence. Therefore, stop saying things like "I don't think that works" because it might.

Of course he can do that and he will do that, that is not the problem within this frame. The problem is, that a theory can very well be graded more or less possible on a certain scale.
Every theory has it rights, but only as long as it doesn't contradict the natural flow of a work of fiction...following that thought, of course, even the author can be wrong and there are few genre where this happens as often as in detective fiction (maybe only in fantasy). Every author can force a story in a frame later on and throw certain plot-elements out of the window in favor of his theory with the claim 'it was there to distract'. But that isn't good writing and especially Episode 6 shows that Ryukishi's aim is above many things, to challenge us but also to make it solvable.

And don't forget the one thing that keeps reappearing and is the key to many mysteries:

Spoiler for Episode 6:

19

[Raneh]

I remembered the previous interview with Ryukishi and he said this:

Spoiler for interview:

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

Did anyone notice what a red text that could've been this hint? As far as I remember most reds in this Ep were confirmations about the closed room mystery. Maybe this has something to do with the person count at the end? It's certainly something that was never discussed after Beato said that there are no more than 17 people on the island.

[scwizard]

Ach, I can't believe I didn't realize Shkanon earlier. Going back and reading over previous episodes, Battler never sees them both together. Battler never sees both of their corpses (he never sees Kanon's corpse period). There's no way 07 is doing this by accident.

Also this makes Shkanon dressing up as Beatrice is pretty much guaranteed. In the first game it is impossible for the person in the witch costume who shoots Natsuhi to be anyone other than Shkanon.

I'm looking forward to future episodes, because they'll come up with an explanation for this madness other than EVERYONE IS CRAZY LOL. The Kinzo being dead and that fact being hidden from people was explained pretty elegantly in episode five. Really hoping to get an explanation for George and Jessica not realizing the truth as one besides "they're dumb lol."

Perhaps one of them knowing, but working with Shkanon to hide it? Maybe George is in to traps or something? Which would explain why his relationship with Shannon has more of a forbidden air to it than Jessica's relationship.

[Kitsu]

n the first game it is impossible for the person in the witch costume who shoots Natsuhi to be anyone other than Shkanon.

It could have been Kanon or Shannon who faked their deaths. It doesn't have to be Kshannon

[scwizard]

Yeah, Shannon, Kanon or the combination of the two.

What I'm trying to say here, is that if you believe Shanon = Kanon to be true, then that would imply that they have a habit of dressing up like Beatrice.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

This once goes back to what I'm saying for you, in that you seem to think that any theory that is not destroyed by the red truths is acceptable, which is clearly not true by Episode 5. Or if you think that way, since Erika didn't know the red truth of Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit, do you think her actions were justified and the trial was fair? As I've already stated: you're thinking just like Erika, particularly with your obsession in distrusting anything and everything that's not stated in red, and this is not a good thing.

Hmm...

Spoiler:

You know what, it still hasn't been established that Ushiromiya Natsuhi that Erika framed isn't the culprit, Battler didn't use the red after he was allowed to (which suggests that there is a reason he couldn't use it, since that would have been a clear weapon to clear Erika's claims instead of framing himself as culprit and still allowing room for Erika to survive, however pathetic her cover-up was). And even with that, the rest of the accusations aren't disproved. But the problem with that was that its a devil's proof, and if one were to turn the wheels and use hempel's raven, Erika would have to provide concrete evidence of adultery between Kinzo and Natushi. Whether the trial was fair or not is open to interpretation, for one thing, from Battler's perspective, it looked unfair but for another, the detective for the episode was Erika and only her perspective was infallible.

I don't see how I am thinking like Erika by assuming that anything not stated in red is not trustworthy, its a basic premise of the game. I am willing to take heavily hinted stuff into account and I have the knowledge of all the games so far, Erika was on the island for two days. And yes, the game itself already proved that anything not declared in red is to be suspected through Kinzo's death, the urges from ryuukishi07 in episode 5 is for the reader to not give up and to trust that he will bring everything together. Furthermore, Battler's monologue at the start of the ura tea party was for people to think things through with as many perspectives as possible. I am not so conceited as to claim that only one theory I claimed is the only truth, a major difference from Erika. And unlike Erika, I formed my theories using circumstantial evidence from scenes without red truths. The catch however is that any theory made will be knocked down if it fails against the red. That automatically requires a theory to not fall prey to any red and so far, that's the only concrete qualification of a correct theory, therefore, any theory that doesn't violate any red truth so far is, for now, plausible. The rest of your ideas about Episode 5 are merely your feelings and your interpretation. Trust me on this one, they will be crushed

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Wut.
As someone who argues in favor of Shannontrice but hates, hates Shkanon, I massively disagree with this concept and argue that there is quite a bit of evidence in favor of the theory. Some examples like the fact that the two did indeed like each other in the past (Jesus, have you not heard of the pony theory at all?), combined with the fact that it's very heavily implied that Battler's sin was a broken promise towards Beatrice in Episode 5 (something which contradicts your theory) and Shannon's oddities in her death in Episode 1, which there have been tons of arguments over here.

I already conceded as much that shanontrice and shkanon are separate theories. Don't buy too much into it. Of course I have heard of the "pony theory", but the thing is, its used (or at least, usable) for Shanontrice, Shkanon and Jessitrice. Battler's sin being a broken promise toward Beatrice is hinted at but as long as its not clear who Beatrice is, the promise could be anything and thus it doesn't contradict Battler culprit theory. It could very easily be the promise to himself to not ever come back to the Ushiromiyas. Shanon's death in episode 1 is also an instance that leads to Shkanon, her death was confirmed (yes Battler didn't see her corpse but Beato confirmed her death later) and this combined with the idea that she was also Kanon, faked the death of Kanon later on, killed everyone then killed herself is the basic idea of Shkanon. I hope you see where I was getting at, Shanontrice and Shkanon are indeed separate but most of the evidence for shanontrice can also be used for shkanon and since shkanon has further evidence and a stronger premise (with the number of people and all the reds pining either Kanon or Shanon in one place but not both), it wins out.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Well you're not exactly following that example when introducing a theory where Battler is the culprit when it was at least established on a plot-basis that Ushiromiya has not commited murder and that he is the detective in the first 4 games.

Erm, I gave enough blue truths and passed through all existing red to establish that theory, that's not my personal opinion (I don't believe/want Battler to be the culprit) and is just a theory that's plausible for now. Your message is rather unclear (which Ushiromiya are you talking about here?), please clean up so that I can properly respond.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

I know you don't like believing in the relationship between author and reader, but it is not like you implied only about 'the author being nice', it is about the author loosing the trust of his readers if he were to introduce a Logic Error within his own story.
If at one point we were to learn what you implied
//Virgilia's red truth applies to another battler
then many readers (including me) would loose their trust in the author and stop thinking, because anything could be a lie and be aimed solely at the act of lying to us.
And as far as I remember Battler only introduced the possibility of him being the boy from 19 years ago, who has a grudge against Natsuhi, he never shouldered the crime of MURDER with any of his claims. With that he only gives power to Natsuhi's alibi, he does not brandish himself the culprit.

Erm, sorry, but Virgilia used that red and then Battler brandished himself culprit in blue, which wouldn't be possible if that red applied to him. And I suggest you read that part again, Battler does declare himself the culprit, him being the child of Natsuhi was simply to provide the whydunnit, the motive. Heck, I will include it here.

Spoiler for wtfax battle xD:

I'll make your foolishness into a statue, and for all eternity......

...............Huh......?"

At that time, Battler's chest...

...no, .........the red long sword that pierced Battler...

......began to sparkle gold from deep within his chest......

That bright golden light.........began to change the red sword's color......turning it gold......

".........What's going on......?"

"B, ......Battler is......, ......what...

......is this......?!"

"............ah."

"Gwah...!!"Battler coughed up blood and groaned.

His consciousness...came back.His will to live, his will to fight...came back...The red long sword which pierced Battler......could no longer be described as such....By now, it had become a golden long sword.Then.........slowly......slowly.........it pulled itself out of Battler's chest......

It finally pulled itself out of Battler and started dancing through the air......then stood up in front of Battler's eyes as though it knew who its master was.Battler, crawling on the floor and moaning, grabbed the golden long sword......and though it looked painful, ......he slowly.........rose to his feet once again.

"......This sure is an elaborate act. ...Is this one of your tricks, Lambda?"

"Th, .........that glow...

.........i, it couldn't be........."Lambda stared wide-eyed at that bright golden glow in awe...When she noticed that Battler's resurrection wasn't part of a script Lambda had thought up, Bern also frowned slightly...

"......Sorry. Retrials will not be permitted.

Siesta Sisters, eliminate this resurrection illusion..."

"Understood.

45, 410, firing permission granted."

"I, ......it's......unable to target!!

IFF error, code 999...!"

".........Eeek."

"...999, you say..., impossible...!"The Siesta Sisters hesitated, unable to carry out Bernkastel's orders...

"Lambda. What kind of farce is this?

......The Illusion of the Witch has been completely destroyed, and the trial ended with our victory."

".........Sorry, Bern. ......You'll have to stick around a bit longer. .........Isn't that right, Ushiromiya Battler......?"

"............Yeah. ......Sorry to keep you waiting, Erika,

......Bernkastel. ......Now it's time for my truth......"

"Request for a retrial accepted.

......The assembly of witches retracts the adjournment of the Court of Illusions!!"

"O, objection.

The trial has already been concluded and the results have even been announced...!"

"Objection overruled...!!

All verdicts are overshadowed by new truths!!"

"Objection!!

Not only has Battler been banished as a player, he also doesn't hold the rank of witch...!

He isn't qualified to call for an appeal...!"

"Objection overruled!!

He already does have that.

......By the name of Lambdadelta, Witch of Certainty, I acknowledge it...

......Ushiromiya Battler...!

I acknowledge you as the new Golden Witch,

......no, .........as the new Endless Sorcerer, Ushiromiya Battler...!!!"

"......Wh, ...what did you say......?

......B, ......Battler got...

......the rank of a witch......?!"

The rank of a witch, which she had desired for so long, had been granted to Battler so quickly.

And on top of that, this wasn't anything temporary.

......This was an official, proper authorization by Lambdadelta.

Erika couldn't accept it, and her face turned bright red...

".........Hmph, ......hehehehehhahaahahahahahahaaah!!

Looks like that kid's game really will keep us entertained until the very end...!

Sure, I'll play along...!"

"Erika, you handle this...!

The red truth you've created with me is perfect...!

The construction of truth which makes Natsuhi the culprit is perfect...!

Battler certainly won't be able to break it!"

"O, of course, my master...!!

There's no need to worry at all!

Anyways, Siesta Sisters, my master ordered you to fire, right?!

How long is it gonna take you to carry that order out?!"

"E, error code 999!

A, an access code is required to target the territory lord...!"

".........Nyeh.

I told you he'd do it nyeh."

"Territory lord...?! Who is?!

Who controls this Fragment?!

I do...!!"

".........Territory lord......

......You don't mean.........,

......Battler is.........?"

"Yes.

Ushiromiya Battler has been authorized as the official territory lord of this Fragment...!"

"Yes, that's right.

......So you still don't understand?

You don't know what that gold sparkle signifies?

.........He's reached it, ......Battler has.

......He's made his way to the innermost depths of all truths!!"

"....................."

"That means Battler's understood everything about this world, this tale, this game.

......In other words, he's reached the position of the game's master.

......*giggle*, I'll bet you don't want to believe it, right, Bern?!"

"......Heh, .........*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!

Yeah, I don't want to believe it...!!

Okay, I'll test Battler to see whether he really understands everything...!!

Erika!"

"Too bad, Erika.

.........Just when you were finally appointed as the territory lord of this Fragment, you've been deprived of that title."

"The new territory lord of this Fragment is Ushiromiya Battler.

......*giggle*, is it awful? Hey, hey, don't you feel just awful?!

How's it feel to be deprived of that title just when you'd finally gotten it?! How's it feel?!"

"Ahh, ...waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhggh!!

Battleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!!!

If you think you can disprove my theory, just try iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!

It's impossible,

impossible!!

The theory I've created has no holes!!

It's impossible to deny that Natsuhi is the culprit!!"

".........I can construct a theory with someone other than Natsuhi oba-san as the culprit.

......It may be that your truth is impossible to disprove.

......If so, that means your truth won't be able to deny my new truth either......!"

Battler spoke with the red truth allowed him by his status as a sorcerer.

"A, ......a culprit other than Natsuhi...?!

...H, ......hah!! How's that?!!

Dlanor!!

Let's see where this delusion of Battler-san's takes us...!!"

......Slowly, ......Dlanor stepped forwards.

In her hand......was the red long sword of the Decalogue.

She also had a blue short sword.

In Battler's hand......was a golden long sword.

......The two rivals once again.........No, for the first time...

...they truly confronted each other.

".........Battler, I've been WAITING."

"Sorry to keep you."

"You did NOT.

Your return was sooner than I ANTICIPATED."

"Kill him, Dlanor A. Knoooooooooooxxxx!!!"

Dlanor's form disappeared in an instant.

As though her slow, dignified movements from before were only a lie...!

......The curve drawn by the long sword of red truth burned itself into the retinas of those who saw it.

Before anyone had enough time to follow that curve, ......it was already approaching Battler's chest...!

"Lady Erika's reasoning has solved the 5th GAME.

No new facts exist which overturn the truth created by this reasoning...!!"

"It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!

When multiple truths exist in parallel, the authenticity of both is questioned!!"

In this closed off world, it's possible for differing truths to exist at the same time.

Furthermore, as long as multiple truths exist, it's impossible to claim that any of the truths are the single truth.

In other words, even if I can't overturn Erika's reasoning, by questioning its credibility...

......and conquering it, I can defeat it...!

"Bern's reasoning is perfect. You won't be able to overturn it easily.

......But still.

If you can present a theory on par with Bern's, the fight will come down to a verdict.

That means it's possible that either one of the truths will be defeated and denied!"

".........This plot twist is truly laughable...!!

I'd expect nothing less from a plot twist by a demon!!"

"Then let me ASK!!

What is this theory with someone other than Natsuhi as the CULPRIT?!!"

Battler's golden long sword drew both red and blue curves at will.

"It's possible to construct it using the revenge of the baby from 19 years ago, which Natsuhi oba-san confessed about."

"Knox's 1st.

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story!

A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!"

"What if the baby from 19 years ago was among us since the very beginning?

For example, ......what if it was me?!"

"Knox's 8th.

It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!

Was there ever any foreshadowing showing that you might be the baby from 19 years ago?!!"

"The red truth from the 4th game that I am not the son of my mother Asumu.

The feeling that Dad was hiding something in both the first game and this game.

In particular, in this game, it was made clear that there were some special circumstances having to do with my birth."

Battler proposed that he might be the baby from 19 years ago,

......and announced that he would reconstruct the crime with himself as the culprit.

As Dlanor cautiously held her sword at the ready, she gauged the distance between them...

Now that Battler had inherited the position of this world's territory lord and attained the rank of Endless Sorceror,

his movements surpassed human understanding.

By now, the physical distance between them probably counted for nothing.

Because their extremely agile battle was surpassing the point where the concept of distance made any difference.

"......A good START.

Let us hear......your theory with Battler as the culprit...!"

"Yeah, I'll let you hear it.

I'll prove that this explanation also works,

......and that you can't be certain Natsuhi oba-san is the culprit...!"

"<Good>!!

If you're supposed to be the culprit, that creates several contradictions!

I'll use those contradictions to reap your feeble truth!

I, Furudo Erika, the detective and the Witch of Truth will...!!"

This time, Erika stepped forward.

......In her hand, there appeared a sickle like one a god of death might hold.

A ruthless sickle for reaping everything that threatened her theory...!

"It's only possible for the crime to have taken place between 24:00 and 1:00!!

During that one hour, you were in the dining hall of the mansion!!

Therefore, it was impossible for you to commit the crime!"

"It has not been specified that the time of death was between 24:00 and 1:00.

Therefore, it's possible that the crime didn't occur between 24:00 and 1:00...!"

"There's a restriction on any murders in the cousins' room!

[color=red]From 1:00 AM until the discovery of the crime, it was impossible for the crime to occur in the cousins' room!!

Dlanor, now!!!"

"Knox's 8th.

If the crime actually was carried out in the cousins' room, clues must have been SHOWN.

Because clues were not given to the detective, Lady Erika, who was on the watch for any abnormalities inside that room until morning, such a crime is IMPOSSIBLE...!!"

"By the time of the crime's discovery, you mean the point at which I let out a scream and everyone gathered there.

Even if it was impossible to kill them before that point, it was possible to kill them afterwards...!!"

Battler used a blue flash to deflect both of the red truths that Erika and Dlanor had flung at him...!

Erika's eyes went wide.

After all, what he had said was completely absurd.

......At that time, ......they still hadn't been killed...?!

Even though corpses with their necks sliced open were laying there?!

"The death of the four in the cousins' room has been proclaimed with the red text!!

Are you trying to use the Illusion of the Witch?!

Are you trying to resurrect George and the others using the concept of magic even though they were dead at the time?!"

"I see, since you believe they were dead by that point,

it probably looks as though the dead have been brought back to life to you...!

So this might look like magic in your eyes.

.........In that case, I won't be the one to take the next shot at you!"

"Fool!!

How often do I have to say it?!!

The deaths of the four people in the cousins' room have been proclaimed with the red truth!!

Furthermore, those corpses were witnessed by a large number of people!!

Furthermore, it's already been proclaimed in red that an autopsy would not be mistaken for any of those corpses...!!

Take that, dead people!!!"

"......When was that red truth made? Have you forgotten, Miss?"The fierce shower of red was blocked by a magical barrier set up by Ronove, who suddenly appeared right in front of Battler.Now that Beato was gone, the demons shouldn't have been able to manifest themselves in the real world...However, ......he 'existed' here, ......and calmly dealt with Erika's attack.

"Y, ...you, ......Ronove!! H, how did you get here...?! Well, who cares, this all works out nicely. Now there's no need to go looking for you. I'll capture you here and deny your existence too!!"

".........I'll leave it to you. Teach her that you can't control everything with a single, arrogant truth."

"<Yes, your majesty>.

.........Well then, ...allow me to be your opponent for a bit. What do you say, Miss?"

"In that case, when do you claim the red truth death proclamation happened?! Are you saying you can pinpoint that?! You can't pinpoint it, so you can't deny that the death proclamation was made at the time of the crime's discovery!!"

"When this court was opened, Lady Lambdadelta made a proclamation. She said this was a 24:00 answer session! ......The death proclamation was made at 24:00 on the second day, in other words, at the end of the game. That does not deny the possibility that the murder occurred after the morning of the second day, after the so-called 'discovery of the crime'...!"

"Then, you're saying......that the victims were alive at that time?! Even though their necks were sliced open?!"

"Did you see that yourself, Miss Detective...? It may be true that all corpses, no matter whose, would not lead to a mistaken autopsy, ......but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse."Erika swung her sickle recklessly, but Ronove blocked everything with elegant gestures made with the shield on one of his hands.

"S, ......so, at that point in time, no one was dead?! There weren't even wounds on their necks?! In that case, ...why did Battler scream?!"

"Better watch your feet, little girl.

.........Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!""Huh?! Ah-"A pitch black hole opened beneath Erika's feet and swallowed her up.She could probably see through to the other side of the hole.......It was the same thing you'd see if you looked down out of the skylight on the ceiling of this cathedral.

"Lia!!"

"Yes."Virgilia could already be seen in midair inside the cathedral.

As Erika fell from the heavens, Virgilia was right below her and caught her on the end of a divine spear which sparkled blue!

"......Shouldn't you rethink your reasoning? Kinzo doesn't exist. Therefore, the way for the bodies to disappear in your theory is a failure."

"CORRECT. ......Unless someone other than Kinzo makes the corpses disappear, your theory FAILS."

"Geh, ......gah,

.........gammiiiiiiit, this is nothing............graggh...gah.........!!"

Virgilia's blue divine spear skewered and pinned Erika in midair.Erika struggled, filled with hatred, but she couldn't get it out easily.

Then, all around her, ......several small, fast things clanged off the walls and enveloped her.

Then seven people manifested themselves at once.

"We are the Seven Sisters of Purgatory...!! Know this, foe of our master!!"

"......You.........lowly paperweights.........!!"

"After George's death, his corpse was never moved!"

"After Jessica's death, her corpse was never moved!"

"After Maria's death, her corpse was never moved!"

"After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!"

"After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!"

"After Krauss's death, his corpse was never moved!"

"Therefore, the corpses couldn't have vanished after being discovered!! Your theory about Kinzo carrying the corpses away fails!"

"AAAaaaaaaarrggghhhhhhhghhh...!!! But so what? Even without Kinzo, I can explain how......the corpses disa-......, ......nnngg, ......gaaaaaaaaaggghhh!! I, ...Furudo Erika, have to revise my theory......?! Nnnnnngggaaaaaaaaaarrrrggghh!! I do?! ...The detective does?!! Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrggghhhhh!!"......Erika was probably capable of escaping this even with Kinzo's existence denied by making only a small revision to her theory.However, ......to her, having to revise a theory she had already created............was extremely......humiliating!

"Looks like you toyed around with your plan too much in order to corner Natsuhi like that."

"You played around too much with your reasoning. ......At this point, your master isn't the only one who can speak of Kinzo's death with the red truth."

"This is what you get for playing around in the witches' darkness. ......Know that, Furudo Erika...!"

"Nngh, ......gggh, ggh.........!!"Of course, even Erika had doubted Kinzo's existence from the beginning.However, it had previously been impossible for anyone to deny his existence in that trial except for Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, who had sided with each other.And because of the willful silence of those two, the truth about Kinzo had truly been unfixed.And yet, to think that Battler......had become a witch......a sorcerer, and capable of using red without proof!!However, she had her own Inquisitor of Heresy who could also use red without proof to counter!!

"D, Dlanoooooooooooorrrr!!!!"

"Knox's 2nd!! It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique! If you would show that Kinzo has died with the red truth, then I demand that you display proof of a human's truth which could be used to make that point...!"

"......Forgive me, damn geezer.""Overcome it, Battler. Don't let my corpse stop you...!!"

"Presentation of evidence. I'll present a corpse which could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo's...!!"

"Can you prove that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's?!

No matter how much it resembles him, unless you can prove that it is him, it is possible to claim that it was a substitute corpse from someone ELSE!! Can you show that it was Kinzo's corpse with the truth of HUMANS?! In this case alone, and with the red truth specifically, no counter-argument will be effective...!!"

"......Ooh. Any counter with the red truth will be ineffective? I guess that works."

"It may be true that the existence of third-party corpses has already been denied with the red. However, if saying that with the red is forbidden, ......*giggle*, Battler has nowhere to run to. Heheheheheheheheheh!"

"That's right...... In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's.""And that itself suggests the possibility that this corpse is a body double! This unidentifiable corpse cannot serve as proof of Kinzo's death...!!"

"......Checkmate...!! My theory does not waver!!"Dlanor had sealed off the red truth as a means of proving that Kinzo's corpse had been shown.......Even with the power of witches, Battler couldn't argue back......!

".........How are you gonna prove that the corpse was Kinzo's if the red truth is sealed? It's impossible. ...It can't be done...!""......With red or blue, ...right......?"

"I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!"

Then, ...when Dlanor...

...met with Battler's golden flash,

.........she was unable to fully block it with either her red long sword or her blue short sword, ...and she was blown backwards into empty space...!

It was a direct hit......without any miscalculation.

Though she had always seemed as firm as a small giant before now, she was finally blasted away and slammed against the wall as though she was the slender girl she appeared to be...!

"D, ......Dlanor?! Wh, what are you......"

"......A splendid golden TRUTH.

.........EFFECTIVE."

"......G, ......golden truth......?!"

The golden long sword, which had been drawing red and blue trails before now,

finally drew a curve which retained its divine golden color.

You see, Battler clearly brandishes himself culprit, the battle quickly moves into his alibi and how he could have committed the crime with Erika keeping close watch over him.

Furthermore, why would Virgilia not declare "You, the one Ushiromiya Battler I am talking to isn't the culprit" instead of saying "Battler-kun isn't the culprit" if her purpose was to prove Battler's innocence? You see, the hint is clearly there that her red doesn't apply to the Battler she is talking to, whether you see it or not depends on you. Its not a logic error, and its not a lie, its been clearly hinted at and even circumstantially proved already, its simply that it didn't go by your notions of trust or whatever. Not ryuukishi07's problem, if and when he will give the answer, he will have to annihilate lots of such notions anyway.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Battler's birthday isn't stated in red, but you'd expect him (especially as the detective... if not just as a person) to know his own age, and Kyrie's story makes no sense if Asumu had her child a year earlier. Considering how much the birth meant to Natsuhi, it would require a considerable added stretch to make Jessica be Asumu-Battler. I'll say that it's possible, say if Natsuhi had a stillbirth (and a c-section was used so she wasn't aware) but Krauss didn't have the heart to tell her, and instead bribed someone at the hospital to procure a baby. For some reason, maybe this led to a triple swap where Asumu got Kyrie's child, Natsuhi got Asumu's, and Kyrie was left with the dead child.

It doesn't really add much to the mystery, and it's a lot easier and less sketchy to just argue that Jessica is Beatrice. Jessitrice is possible, but doesn't rule out Shkanon (and the considerable evidence that's been introduced for the latter).

I don't think having multiple cases of split personalities is a good way to write a mystery, so if anything, Jessitrice would hopefully be purely a pretend thing as opposed to an actual medical condition.

I think the operative theory would be that the "baby from 19 years ago" would actually be the "baby from 18 years ago"... It's easier to imagine how they could misconstrue the date on that (considering Natsuhi doesn't even remember it happened at first, I mean really?) than to say that Battler/Jessica are actually one year older (which still is possible.)

Originally Posted by Archer

Spoiler for snip:

It's not a matter of direct contradiction, it's a matter of clues that support the idea at all. So far, all of the clues that you've used to construct your theory were either originally no way related to the theory itself or actually contradicts what you're saying.

From what we do know about Battler's birth:

There is more than one Ushiromiya Battler. One was born from Ushiromiya Asumu, and the other was born from somebody else. That's it.

So, what do we know about Natsuhi's child problems?

Natsuhi had problems with being pregnant, which caused her severe anguish. Her insecurity about her issues indirectly led into the death of a servant and an adopted child. Some time later, she was able to finally conceive and be happy with Jessica.

How are these two related? I have no idea either, but there's nothing in the story that remotely suggests the possibility anyway. That is what I consider important: I don't mind if the game contradicts itself, but the game has to show that our assumption being wrong is somehow likely to happen. Kinzo's never shown himself to Battler in a scene that clearly wasn't fantasy, and he's always killed and burned up somewhere offscreen. That's enough room for doubt. On the other hand, nothing in the game suggests at the possibility that Jessica was adopted, period. You can keep pointing at Battler's mysterious identity problems, but that doesn't show anything about Jessica.

tl;dr - Show me something that might suggest Jessica not being Natsuhi's own daughter and I'll stop bugging you.

Spoiler for space:

Here is where I'm going to say, use a shotgun, not a pistol. There are more ways to solve a puzzle than starting with a known foundation and working your way through. There might be a seemingly baseless proposition that, when you assume it to be true and work backwards step by step, makes a wonderful solution.

Spoiler for more analogies:

I have no hint that directly suggests that Jessica is not Natsuhi's own daughter.

I also have no direct hint in episodes 1-4 that suggests the book Eva was looking for in episode 3 was an atlas, or that there is a ladder that can reach up to Kinzo's study.

I also have no direct hint that Kanon is a girl. If after I read episode 4 I stated that as my theory, by itself, with no other changes, it would be baseless. "Why?" Well, I could then answer the why. "Because Kanon and Shannon are the same person." And you explain your reasoning for why they are the same person. Then the original statement has a purpose. I've already said why I think the theory has been ruled out, but that doesn't mean I deny the existence of hints that suggest it.

Jessica is not Natsuhi's daughter. Baseless claim. "Why?" Because she is actually Asumu's daughter, given to Natsuhi and Krauss by Kinzo, and the other Battler dies before he gets to Rokkenjima. And then you go on to explain the hints that justify the second statements and make the original statement have a purpose.

I mean, I could go into detail on my own personal theory which also happens to currently include Jessica as the second Battler, but I've already done that in other locations, and this post is long enough as is.

If we cannot make any statement unless it is directly supported by a piece of evidence, then all theories are impossible unless they are presented in the text. Multiple murders require that we fill in the blanks to explain how they happened. Battler's death at the end of episode 4 has no direct hints whatsoever. The popular theories regarding it can only be applied with indirect hints based on the endings of previous episodes - but there is no direct indication that those also apply to episode 4. Krauss's death in episode 5 is completely offscreen. The same goes for many deaths in episode 4 (but especially Maria), as well as the entire first twilight of every episode except the 4th (Episode 2 in particular.)

In simple terms, the writer would not have introduced the existence of a second Ushiromiya Battler if it did not have some significance beyond being a plot device to allow Beatrice to suspend the game. This introduced two questions:

• Who is Battler's real mother?
• What happened to the Ushiromiya Battler who was born of Asumu?

It would be irresponsible for any theory to leave either of these questions unanswered.

And yet, there are no hints in episodes 1-4 suggesting that he is the son of any specific person besides Asumu.

This reminds me of the author's comments regarding people who "wait for a sign that they can start solving the mystery." Because we have not been given a sign as to where Asumu's child is, are we supposed to refrain from speculating? I think it would be irresponsible not to make theories about who the second Battler is. Personally, I'm not satisfied with the explanation "the other Battler died at birth," because then it's just a plot device.

Similarly with the epitaph. Virtually everyone, myself included, does not even consider the solution to the epitaph when they make theories, despite being told multiple times "solve the epitaph first!" If that's not ignoring established facts, I don't know what is. And it appears that the only way to solve it is to fill in the blanks yourself until you find something that works, and then everything will fit together perfectly.

Originally Posted by scwizard

In the first game it is impossible for the person in the witch costume who shoots Natsuhi to be anyone other than Shkanon.

It's also possible for Eva. The second twilight was easier to fake than the first twilight (and the magic circle strongly hints that it was.) She just has to be dying when they find her (shot by Natsuhi's rifle.)

If Kanon = Shannon is not true, then it could also be Kanon alone.

[scwizard]

Shanontrice and Shkanon are indeed separate

Does anyone have a theory of episode one that allows you to hold the second theory to be true, but not the first.

Seems like due to episode one, the first implies the second to me.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Yep, Shanontrice and Shkanon aren't equivalent but Shanontrice doesn't really have much evidence to itself, any evidence that points at Shanontrice points at Shkanon in a stronger manner.

Umm, what? There are many points about Shannontrice that don't implicate Shkanon at all (at least to me):

1. Shannon seems at least a little unsure about the marriage proposal, and for some reason GeorgexShannon has always seemed to have a lot less substance than other canon pairings, despite their engagement and claimed undying love. This makes the "fact" that Shannon is truly in love with George questionable. And although this can implicate that Shannon is a cross-dressing male (aka Shkanon), I don't see how it has to by any means.
   
   Spoiler for EP6:

   Not to mention the fact that George was talking about how jealous he was of Battler and Shannon's happy conversations 6 years ago and how he hinted that she didn't seem that happy in the present.
2. The whole thing about the Engrish and the white horse, of course.
3. Battler knew Shannon 6 years ago, and they are close in age.
4. Spoiler for EP6:

   Regarding EP6's statement about 19 being the age of the "true master of the island", Shannon's age is not necessarily certain, while Jessica's 18 is nearly guaranteed by Natsuhi's whole situation. Although whether the "true master of the island" is Beatrice can be called into question.
5. Whether or not Shannon died in EP1 is questionable (regardless of if she and Kanon share an identity), and many of the murders in all episodes can be explained with her as a culprit. EP2's early twilights, for example, do not require Shkanon to be explained. The possibility still clearly exists that Kanon was thrown out of the window - he didn't have to be Shannon's killed alter personality. Not to mention a few red text loopholes allowing Jessica's key to have a duplicate. On the other hand Beato doesn't necessarily have to be the murderer, so you can take this point with a grain of salt.
6. Spoiler for EP6:

   Jessica, the only other close-in-age girl that Battler knew 6 years ago, was referred to as if she wasn't around in a Beato flashback that seemed to be a direct conversation between Beatrice and Battler. Thus, by process of elimination, you can conclude Shannon. (although you seem to believe that this was a conversation Jessica overheard, and I guess that can't be fully denied)

These are all pretty strong clues, and none of them imply or require Shkanon. Only if you want to believe in Shkanon can you pull some of those clues over.

Originally Posted by Raneh

Did anyone notice what a red text that could've been this hint? As far as I remember most reds in this Ep were confirmations about the closed room mystery. Maybe this has something to do with the person count at the end? It's certainly something that was never discussed after Beato said that there are no more than 17 people on the island.

Spoiler for EP6:

I think there's at least a small chance that it could be Erika's "I am a visitor, Rokkenjima's 18th human!". This goes back to a bit of discussion earlier in this thread about the knock in EP5 never actually happening, and the red text around it was simply describing such a knock had it actually happened (well there was a longer explanation regarding the complex red text "kakera selection" mechanic, but it basically worked the same way).

Thus Erika could be describing herself as "the 18th piece", but even though everything she was saying about this piece was true that piece didn't exist on the gameboard. ...if that makes sense XD.

It also goes without saying that I didn't interpret what Beato says before the "There are 17 people" declaration as necessarily meaning that Erika is included. (hopefully I'm looking at that kanji correctly and such an interpretation is possible...I took the "welcome" to mean the feelings and not the actual inclusion)

[scwizard]

the_rogue: from what I hear, if you're going to doubt Shanon = Kanon then there's a bunch of closed room puzzles you have to solve, the central one being "how did Battler escape." If you can read Japanese (I don't) you should definitely take a shot at those, it would strengthen your position.

Originally Posted by Arkwright

It's also possible for Eva. The second twilight was easier to fake than the first twilight (and the magic circle strongly hints that it was.) She just has to be dying when they find her (shot by Natsuhi's rifle.)

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
What are the clues that would lead us to believe that Eva faked her death?

In addition to this, the detective, Battler, declared Eva to be dead. Saying that this was too cruel to George. For Battler to have confused a living person and a dead person, a clue is required to have been presented pointing to that fact.

Not to mention a few red text loopholes allowing Jessica's key to have a duplicate.

Please present these loopholes explicitly instead of alluding to them.

Also: Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
Do you have any clues, any evidence, that indicate that a duplicate was made of Jessica's key?

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Umm, what? There are many points about Shannontrice that don't implicate Shkanon at all (at least to me):

I ALREADY CONCEDED AS MUCH ZZZ.

Originally Posted by the_rogue

These are all pretty strong clues, and none of them imply or require Shkanon. Only if you want to believe in Shkanon can you pull some of those clues over.

Yeah, that's what I meant. But like I said, since all of the hints for Shanontrice can be used for Shkanon (and all of them can because Shkanon already includes the whole of Shanon's story) and Shkanon has further hints and Shkanon solves some puzzles and paradoxes, especially about the movement of Shanon/Kanon when they committed the crimes and about the number of people on the island, it wins out logically. That doesn't mean shanontrice is denied, I never said it wasn't plausible.

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Spoiler for EP6:

I think there's at least a small chance that it could be Erika's "I am a visitor, Rokkenjima's 18th human!". This goes back to a bit of discussion earlier in this thread about the knock in EP5 never actually happening, and the red text around it was simply describing such a knock had it actually happened (well there was a longer explanation regarding the complex red text "kakera selection" mechanic, but it basically worked the same way).

Thus Erika could be describing herself as "the 18th piece", but even though everything she was saying about this piece was true that piece didn't exist on the gameboard. ...if that makes sense XD.

It also goes without saying that I didn't interpret what Beato says before the "There are 17 people" declaration as necessarily meaning that Erika is included. (hopefully I'm looking at that kanji correctly and such an interpretation is possible...I took the "welcome" to mean the feelings and not the actual inclusion)

That's what the general assumption at the moment is but that's not the case because in the interview, the question is clearly "What was red truth that was supposed to be in Ep3 but excluded then and included in Ep5?" Erika wasn't there in Ep3, which clearly means that the red truth in question has nothing to do with her.

Originally Posted by scwizard

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!

First off, Knox's rules don't apply to Ep 1. Second off, he already gave the hint that there was a magic circle drawn in the door in practically no time. Add in the fact that Battler didn't personally confirm the death (he didn't even see the corpse of Hideyoshi), there are ample clues that Eva(or Hideyoshi) faked their death. Its plausible, however far-fetched it sounds.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by scwizard

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
What are the clues that would lead us to believe that Eva faked her death?

Copy-pasting:

In comparison [to Shannon in the first twilight], I think there is a simpler and more viable candidate for a fake in the second twilight. Some people (seemingly including Battler) don't even look in the room, and even the people who looked in the room would not have been able to see Hideyoshi even if they went inside, so his death especially is fairly easily falsified. Furthermore, someone drew a magic circle on the door during the short time it took Kanon and Kumasawa to go grab a wire cutter. In other words, before anyone entered the room, someone who knew there were "corpses" inside went up and painted a magic circle on the door during a tiny time-frame in which they could have been discovered by multiple people. And if they were real murders and the painter was the culprit, getting caught drawing a magic circle on the door would have been basically saying "I killed them" after people found what was inside.

So, the magic circle seems like a big clue that the second twilight was faked, at least in part.

The second twilight was planned to be fake from the start. Genji drew the magic circle on the door while Kumasawa and Kanon went to get the wire cutter. There was no problem with a servant discovering him drawing the witch's mark on the door, because the servants all knew that they were going to put on a show of "discovering bodies" when they went in the door, and that no one was actually going to be dead in there.

[Kaiba]

You know what, it still hasn't been established that Ushiromiya Natsuhi that Erika framed isn't the culprit, Battler didn't use the red after he was allowed to (which suggests that there is a reason he couldn't use it, since that would have been a clear weapon to clear Erika's claims instead of framing himself as culprit and still allowing room for Erika to survive, however pathetic her cover-up was). And even with that, the rest of the accusations aren't disproved. But the problem with that was that its a devil's proof, and if one were to turn the wheels and use hempel's raven, Erika would have to provide concrete evidence of adultery between Kinzo and Natushi. Whether the trial was fair or not is open to interpretation, for one thing, from Battler's perspective, it looked unfair but for another, the detective for the episode was Erika and only her perspective was infallible.

I'll be quite blunt here. Anyone who can think for a minute that Natsuhi could be a culprit after Episode 5 is an idiot. Ryukishi making her the culprit after that would seriously be the mother of all asspulls, and I'm not even going to look at that. As for why Battler couldn't use the red? Because the trial was inherently unfair, as at that point it gave him the burdens of the detective (can't use supernatural methods) without its privileges.

I don't see how I am thinking like Erika by assuming that anything not stated in red is not trustworthy, its a basic premise of the game. I am willing to take heavily hinted stuff into account and I have the knowledge of all the games so far, Erika was on the island for two days. And yes, the game itself already proved that anything not declared in red is to be suspected through Kinzo's death, the urges from ryuukishi07 in episode 5 is for the reader to not give up and to trust that he will bring everything together. Furthermore, Battler's monologue at the start of the ura tea party was for people to think things through with as many perspectives as possible. I am not so conceited as to claim that only one theory I claimed is the only truth, a major difference from Erika. And unlike Erika, I formed my theories using circumstantial evidence from scenes without red truths. The catch however is that any theory made will be knocked down if it fails against the red. That automatically requires a theory to not fall prey to any red and so far, that's the only concrete qualification of a correct theory, therefore, any theory that doesn't violate any red truth so far is, for now, plausible. The rest of your ideas about Episode 5 are merely your feelings and your interpretation.

Because that's what Erika does. Remember what she said to Natsuhi when pulling out her bullshit motive? Even little phrases like "I loved my husband" (something for which there was a ton of evidence) can't be trusted because they are not in red. If anything, I would argue you don't even do that, as your theory pushes and pulls the red around on the Knox rules, I am not you and Battler is not eh culprit, which is something I have little respect for as it merely opens the door to any ridiculous theory.
And just because a theory doesn't violate a red truth doesn't mean it's plausible in the slightest. The Natsuhi theory is "plausible." Aliens charging in and killing everyone for the first four episodes are "plausible" (since the Knox rules don't apply to the first four episodes, according to you). Small bombs are plausible. That doesn't mean that they're not pointless and not an utter waste of time. There's a difference between what's plausible and what's logical according to what we've seen, and a theory of Battler being the culprit, which violates every principle of characterization and common sense.

. The rest of your ideas about Episode 5 are merely your feelings and your interpretation. Trust me on this one, they will be crushed

Probably. If Higurashi and what we've seen of Umineko is an example, Ryukishi likes the outlandish. I don't, and frankly have little interest in outlandish theories, aiming for what is logical and makes the most sense. So my theories are probably wrong, but I will still defend under the banner of rationality.

I already conceded as much that shanontrice and shkanon are separate theories. Don't buy too much into it. Of course I have heard of the "pony theory", but the thing is, its used (or at least, usable) for Shanontrice, Shkanon and Jessitrice. Battler's sin being a broken promise toward Beatrice is hinted at but as long as its not clear who Beatrice is, the promise could be anything and thus it doesn't contradict Battler culprit theory. It could very easily be the promise to himself to not ever come back to the Ushiromiyas. Shanon's death in episode 1 is also an instance that leads to Shkanon, her death was confirmed (yes Battler didn't see her corpse but Beato confirmed her death later) and this combined with the idea that she was also Kanon, faked the death of Kanon later on, killed everyone then killed herself is the basic idea of Shkanon. I hope you see where I was getting at, Shanontrice and Shkanon are indeed separate but most of the evidence for shanontrice can also be used for shkanon and since shkanon has further evidence and a stronger premise (with the number of people and all the reds pining either Kanon or Shanon in one place but not both), it wins out.

Beatrice did NOT confirm Shannon's death later. There's been tons of arguments over this, and I argue that Shannon was still alive after the First Twilight.
Shannontrice has different evidence from Shkanon, as it in general ignores Kanon in general. Explain this. What does Shkanon have over Shannontrice, as it needlessly complicates the whole murder plot by adding in a ton of people who have to be in on that conspiracy too, and really has nothing on making the plot easier to go by than Shannontrice? Even if there is supposedly more evidence for Shkanon, which I don't believe, extraordinary claims like there is no Kanon and no one knows about this require far more evidence than a simple claim like Shannon killed everyone. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Here it is:

"You know, people are always making another part of themselves inside themselves that they can really like. This isn't escaping from reality, okay? ......When I'm that other part of myself, I can really feel like I'm living a great life. So no matter how constrained and boring everyday life is, I can definitely live without suffocating."

"You know, I'm called by this nickname Jessie in school. So when I'm Jessie, I live life honestly and to the fullest. And because of that, I can do my best when I'm Jessica too."

I think this scene can count as a hint for either Jessica or Kanon having multiple "selves" of them. This may be Jessica hinting that she has other personalities, or it might be why Kanon likes her so much despite the obvious problems Shkanon creates. They're much more alike than any other pairing.

A normal things that happens to everyone: just like when I am in public, I probably behaved much different from when I am at home. I suppose everyone displays these kind of behaviour change.

This scene, when I read it, I was thinking how Jessica strongly disliked being restricted by strict rules and taught sternly as she was supposedly the next head of the family ('s wife). She yearned for freedom and despised the status of head of the family. That's it.

To say Jessica developed an alternate personality Beatrice, it is not that simple.

Firstly, it was a serious mental illness - DID (dissociative identiy disorder). Jessica did not display any of its core symtoms at all - depersonalization, derealization and psychogenic amnesia.

Secondly, usually there has to be some events that causes the disorder, if it is not genetically inherited (no hints of saying the Ushiromiya family as having relatives with mental illnesses). Often the cause is child abuse, but it was said that Jessica did care for her parents and respect them in heart. No hints of her being abused before (no mention of bruise, scars, avoidance of speaking about the abusers).

Thirdly, six years ago, Beatrice was rumoured as a witch living in the forest of Rokkenjima before the portraint was hung in the mansion, sneaking around at night to catch people. If Jessica indeed developed a alternative personality Beatrice, it should based largely on this image. However, the Beatrice we knew had a much richer content like being Maria's master, playing innocuous tricks on people with Maria. It was nothing evil and that should not be Jessica's created personality if Beatrice was born because of abuse and stress.


All in all, to say either Jessica or Shannon suffers from DID or other serious mental illnesses is groundless and ridiculous (BAD BAD writing, because it conflicted with both Jessica's and Shannon's lively and strong-willed image so much. On the other hand, Kinzo probably fits much better for mental illnesses). They were two healthy ladies, just that Jessica being slightly tomboy and Shannon being shy and timid (at least before she met Beatrice, who gave her the brooch to encourage her to create her own fate. IMO, breaking the shrine's mirror was an act the early Shannon would never dare to do, because she was slightly superstitious and believed in fatalism that a servant like her would never get in love with master George, breaking the mirror was a symbolic act such that she cast away her fatalistic thoughts and started create her own future. A good move proposed by Beatrice.)

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by scwizard

Does anyone have a theory of episode one that allows you to hold the second theory to be true, but not the first.

Seems like due to episode one, the first implies the second to me.

Spoiler for long:

I'm just going to address the major points that I think you're thinking about.

As is the basis of Shannon being the culprit in any way shape or form, the "Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" red text does not apply to Shannon, because she is not a corpse but somebody playing dead.

The red text involving Kanon's death is tricky, I admit. "All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!", "Kanon did not commit suicide", and "Kanon did not die in an accident!" all seem to point to him dying in a manner that was not a homicide, a suicide, or an accident, which is clearly impossible. However, two possibilities exist:

• Kanon never died - he went into a coma and all people treating him gave up hope. Although nobody was able to kill him they were certainly able to mortally wound him.
• The murderer (Shannon) set up a trap that drove a stake into Kanon's chest, and lured him downstairs by closing the boiler room door. Her alibi was not being in the room, and she didn't directly kill him.

Now the second one seems ridiculous, but note that no matter how much Beato made fun of the possibility she never denied it in red for this particular twilight. Which is suspicious.

With Shannon running around free with a master key (iirc), you can explain all of the remaining twilights without much difficulty.

I agree that I could probably strengthen my position by going back and trying to solve that closed room issue, but it's a doozy to be sure .